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Just Start From Something But is it Legal?

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emsi2

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Hi guys,

I'm italian and i have a question.

I have read a lot of posts that recommend starting with something.
I.E: in different gold posts about e-commerce I have seen a few people that place their first order of products and try to sell them.
Same thing also for other kind of bussiness, for example "creating websites".

The fact is that in Italy from what i read, for every kind of activity where you are going to sell a product or a service during the time, you need a "partita iva".

In other words, you have to pay several mandatory costs. Is it different in the USA or in the country you live? Because i don't understand how can be possible starting (legally) in this simple way.


I hope you can understand what I am writing (sorry for my bad english)
Thank you,
Christian
 

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jpn

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2 points.

1. If it’s really needed. Than go and get that registration. If you can’t bother with some paper work, you shouldn’t start a business.

2. Get advice from a specialist. For example a bookkeeper. Usually a introductory chat is free and they will usually give some basic advice during this conversations. That will help uncover the truth.

I Can’t speak for Italy. But in other European countries you need a VAT number when you are a business. But when you are tiny there are exceptions. For example, in my EU country you can sell stuff without a VAT Number and if it’s under 10.000 euro per year or so. You don’t need to be a business and you don’t need a VAT number. You start your business and when it turns out you are going to exceed the limits, then you get the number and fix everything.
 
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emsi2

emsi2

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1. If it’s really needed. Than go and get that registration. If you can’t bother with some paper work, you shouldn’t start a business.
I agree with you, but the fact is that it's not so simple starting with the test of a product or creating a website. I can do it ma it's not legal (in Italy). If i want to do it i have to pay something about 250 €/ month for partita iva and all the other costs to create and mantain it. So i need at least 2k /3k to start everything.

Here it's not possible create a website, import some products and try to sell them, also if your revenues are less than 5.000 €, unless you have a Vat number (partita iva). In every case i need to some initial investment.

Am I wrong?

Anyway thank you for the answer :)
 

Beerbread

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It's a legal forum, but maybe this will help?


But as @jpn said, consult a bookkeeper and you'll get more answers. I find it hard to believe that Italy will charge an arm and a leg for a business that has no profit yet.
 
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emsi2

emsi2

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It's a legal forum, but maybe this will help?


But as @jpn said, consult a bookkeeper and you'll get more answers. I find it hard to believe that Italy will charge an arm and a leg for a business that has no profit yet.
Yes dude, this is interesting, thank you :D

I will conctact also an italian specialist.

Thanks for your suggestions
 

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The fact is that in Italy from what i read, for every kind of activity where you are going to sell a product or a service during the time, you need a "partita iva"
Same thing also for other kind of bussiness, for example "creating websites".
@VicFountain @Bobby_italy & @Madame Peccato are the go-to Italians on this forum. Maybe they can shed some light on your predicament.


In other words, you have to pay several mandatory costs. Is it different in the USA or in the country you live?
In UK you can just register as self-employed, you can even do your own accounting.

Of course you can form a limited company if you wish
You only need to register & pay VAT to the govt after £85,000 turnover
 

Madame Peccato

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Selling anything (except certain types of services, and even then there are severe limitations) requires a partita IVA with all of its associated costs.

Technically you don't need a partita IVA if you want to sell websites, you don't earn more than 5k€/year, and you only do it occasionally (although this is almost impossible to verify).

You still need to exercise caution, as there are things like "ritenuta d'acconto" that you have to take into account when requesting a payment. My advice is to talk to a commercialista to make sure you don't make any terrible mistake.
 

mon_fi

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Hi guys,

I'm italian and i have a question.

I have read a lot of posts that recommend starting with something.
I.E: in different gold posts about e-commerce I have seen a few people that place their first order of products and try to sell them.
Same thing also for other kind of bussiness, for example "creating websites".

The fact is that in Italy from what i read, for every kind of activity where you are going to sell a product or a service during the time, you need a "partita iva".

In other words, you have to pay several mandatory costs. Is it different in the USA or in the country you live? Because i don't understand how can be possible starting (legally) in this simple way.


I hope you can understand what I am writing (sorry for my bad english)
Thank you,
Christian

Hey,

It is everywhere the same, you cant run a business without...registering your business ;) however, states tend to be lenient and usually let you develop your thing for 1-2 years, and when it slowly stars to become profitable, then only you should register the business. Unless, of course, you start something for which you need authorization (restaurants for example), the rest should be fine, it is "tolerated". Check as well if there is a possibility to be "entrepreneur while working", we have this in Belgium, it is to create your own business with drastically decreased taxes because you are already working.

Good luck!

M.
 

mon_fi

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I agree with you, but the fact is that it's not so simple starting with the test of a product or creating a website. I can do it ma it's not legal (in Italy). If i want to do it i have to pay something about 250 €/ month for partita iva and all the other costs to create and mantain it. So i need at least 2k /3k to start everything.

Here it's not possible create a website, import some products and try to sell them, also if your revenues are less than 5.000 €, unless you have a Vat number (partita iva). In every case i need to some initial investment.

Am I wrong?

Anyway thank you for the answer :)
Also check out estonian e-residency, i have written about it, you should be able to search the forum and find the comment
 

VicFountain

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It is everywhere the same
I wouldn't say that, cause OP might take it too literally. It's definitely not the same as other countries such as the USA. You have much more bureaucracy in Italy and starting a business is not as easy as people make it sound in the USA.
 
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emsi2

emsi2

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I wouldn't say that, cause OP might take it too literally. It's definitely not the same as other countries such as the USA. You have much more bureaucracy in Italy and starting a business is not as easy as people make it sound in the USA.
Yes, this is what I mean. If I want to try to sell a product, also for example through amazon fba or creating a website with shopify i need the Vat (Partita Iva) and so about 3k € to invest for test a product.
 

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emsi2

emsi2

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Apr 15, 2019
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Selling anything (except certain types of services, and even then there are severe limitations) requires a partita IVA with all of its associated costs.

Technically you don't need a partita IVA if you want to sell websites, you don't earn more than 5k€/year, and you only do it occasionally (although this is almost impossible to verify).

You still need to exercise caution, as there are things like "ritenuta d'acconto" that you have to take into account when requesting a payment. My advice is to talk to a commercialista to make sure you don't make any terrible mistake.
Thank for the reply, it's true but if I use a website and some ads to promote myself I'm pretty sure of yes.
Yes I will contact a commercialista.
 
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emsi2

emsi2

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Apr 15, 2019
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however, states tend to be lenient and usually let you develop your thing for 1-2 years, and when it slowly stars to become profitable, then only you should register the business.
Thank you for the reply dude,

I wish it were so, but I can't take the risk. I think probably nobody does anything to me if I sell 10 product for 20/30 euros each one, but the best thing I can do is to write to a specialist.
 

mon_fi

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Thank you for the reply dude,

I wish it were so, but I can't take the risk. I think probably nobody does anything to me if I sell 10 product for 20/30 euros each one, but the best thing I can do is to write to a specialist.
You do what you gotta do : )
 

LordGanon

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Am I wrong?

Anyway thank you for the answer :)
You're not necessarily wrong. I'm no expert on Italian regulations, BUT: Sometimes the EU actually is a helpful thing.

As a EU citizen, you have the right to start a business in every country under every umbrella that country offers. And now, on to the part that could really help you out:

eCitizenship in Estonia. Not only is Estonia very tax-friendly when it comes to corporations, but you can also do every kind of business without attendance via eCitizenship.

Of course, you got to put some money on the table. In Germany (where I live), you gotta pay at least 30-40€ for the registration of your business. Also, as soon as you incorporate, after one or two years you gotta pay a lot of money each month to the Industry and Crafts Association, just because you are a corporation.
 

Bobby_italy

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To be honest it used to be really bad, right now if you open a “Ditta Individuale” with “forfettario” just search on google you’ll find everything, it takes like 2 days to register and start operating, like 300€ to start and let’s say 100€ for bookkeeping and bureocracy a month.

IF you are unemployed add like 3k something a year for your “contributi” paid every 3/4 months idk now with covid it’s weird.

It’s actually very difficult to operate AFTER you open the company and to be honest if you don’t have an initial capital of 5/10k that you aren’t willing to lose I would just save it up and risk it later.
Also consider that this kind of company isn’t Limited and it’s directly linked to your name, any shit you get into like copyright, bad products, lawsuits etc.. you’ll have to pay yourself no matter what, while with a SRL you have your own net worth “safe”.

I really hope you knew all the stuff I told you if you’re going to start a company, if you didn’t, start researching a lot and talk with people doing what you want to do etc...

The real problem is that when you do the math it never comes together because in Italy we have retarded taxes, in an SRL if you don’t manage your “UTILE” wisely you can pay up to 75/80% taxes on it before it hits your bank account...
If you are super smart and fiscally conscious you could pay half of that, again this comes down to a good commercialista and which sector you operate in.

I wouldn’t honestly advise to anyone to be an entrepreneur in Italy unless they are 100% sure they’re good at what they do and they don’t NEED money to live for at least 6 months.
To be profitable here you basically pay yourself a small salary and try to grow without using the company money for yourself, the first 5/10 years are basically like working a job + some money in your company Bank account that you should manage correctly.
This is for all normal businesses: cleaning services, restaurants, small shops, small manual labor companies in general.

Also consider that Italy has this thing were you get paid 30/60/90/120 days after you finish your job... and 90% of companies expect this kind of payments SO if you don’t have enough money to live you may have to work for someone else while starting.

From what I see you want to do ecommerce which is a nightmare but easier to manage since you don’t have employees, just think about the fact that in Italy the postal services suck and are super expensive while being inefficient, amazon is also run on very small margins unless you have some insanely branded product, show me your research and what you want to do and I’ll tell you wheter the idea could be executed without going bankrupt after 3 months or is kinda bad.

I’m really busy right now so just tell me I have product X with cost X and I plan to have 30% margins and sell X amount a month, from what remains calculate your taxes/bookkeeping/contributi and I‘ll check if something is missing.
I guess a good goal would be 2.5k a month profit so you can get yourself a 1k salary and have some room for error.
A friend of mine who is “socio” in a company and earns a 1300€ salary got to pay 20000€ in taxes last year, obviously being a family company they paid it for him but legally they didn’t have to, the italian tax system is pretty weird so you need to research really deep to understand it and talk with people doing it for 20+ years, the only money you get to spend are those you can detract from taxes like Cars/investments etc..

The ultimate plan would be to work where you want to start your business and learn everything from the inside, try to gather as much information as possible while getting paid and working on your idea, once you feel you know how to run said business just start it on the side.
 

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