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Topics relating to managing people and relationships

Abrodos

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OK I'm f*cking stupid or something.

THere's this guy I've known for several years. He's a theatre actor and director, extremely narcissistic, the kind of guy that asks for a small favour and once you agree, keeps increasing it more and more. Recently he's started to work making theatre shows for a big football club that (surprise!) gives the work to the one that charges less.

Some of the previous experiences I've had with him:
I created a statue for a nonprofit organization I was member of. He was the link between them and me. He actually was the one that wanted this statue (the other members didn't care about it). I agreed with him to do it at 60% of my competitors' budget, but we didn't close the price. But he told the organization I would do it for 10% of the price because it was the only way they would agree to have it done. I found out in the middle of the project.

Last week he called me. He offered me two businesses:
-A graffiti 2hour show, 4 days at 40/h each. I told him I charge 20/h, and that preparing materials+transport+the actual show was about 5h, so minimum he should be paying me 100/day.
He couldn't so no deal there. Everything OK (except the 45min unpaid time that I had to listen to him rant and whine to me about how low they were on money, blah blah blah.)

The next day he offers me another small job: a scenery for a kids' play for 200€ that they'll pay me in a month, but that must be finished IN JUST A F***ING WEEK. I tell him I will be doing 10h of work, no more, and the budget didn't allow for quality materials. Everything ok.
I workes until late every day (because I already had a packed week). I agreed because I knew the limit was 10h.
Of course 10h were not enough, so I do 3 more for free and I don't charge for the designs. I insist him on some facts:

-I'm working with very limited materials because there's no budget;
-I won't go to the place (45min trip) to set up the scenery for free;
-I will do what I can with that budget, and no more.

In the middle of the week he tells me they'll come pick up the pieces on FRIDAY instead of sunday, so more pressure to have it finished. At least I won't be worrying about it on the weekend, I think.)

I lend him several pieces of furniture for the theatre play, for free, and I agree to do some styrofoam shapes on the weekend to compensate because the scenery is unpainted because there has been no time nor budget to paint it.

So, on sunday the play director (with whom I had never spoken) calls me, tells me the scenery legs have broken when setting it up and asks me to do a 45 min commute to fix it, of course without paying me anything. My "friend" had told her I would do the scenery for 200€ so she assumed some kind of warranty.

Summarizing, due to f+++ing low budget and the fantasizing and half-truths of a narcissistic guy, I've let down some people that I don't know, generated a problem to them, and been working extra hours for 200€ that I probably will never see.

I have told this director that I am unable to go help them this Sunday afternoon if they don't pay this extra time, and she's told me that they can't even pay me the agreed 200€ for something that doesn't work. If they are theatre people someone should know how to fix it. I've offered to help them fix it from home, via phone communication, even suggested alternative ways of assembly. But probably I won't be seeing any money.

OK, so in order to be a bit positive, some advice for people that might face similar situations:

1. Don't discuss the job conditions with a phone call, but with whatsapp text messages or audio recordings. This way you can show them to third parties when a conflict arises.
2. Don't f***ing work with people that are low on money, or that ask you to lower your prices. Dump them as soon as they appear.
3. Some people don't change. Don't give them third opportunities.
4. Don't work for promises of something or because you're low on money. I accepted this job because I was closing the year with less money than I intended. Always be dominant and reject people that want to force you into work conditions that you aren't confortable with. Don't lose your position when negotiating.
5. When dealing with dangerous people/projects that give so many warning signals, always ask for payment first. Here they were tellling me they'd pay me like a month later so another warning signal. They wouldn't have paid me first.


Ok I'm going to take a deep breath now.
If someone wants to share some words of confort, tips or similar experiences I'll be grateful.
Have a nice weekend all!
 
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Last edited:

Isaunders

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May 14, 2019
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OK I'm F*cking stupid or something.

THere's this guy I've known for several years. He's a theatre actor and director, extremely narcissistic, the kind of guy that asks for a small favour and once you agree, keeps increasing it more and more. Recently he's started to work making theatre shows for a big football club that (surprise!) gives the work to the one that charges less.

Some of the previous experiences I've had with him:
I created a statue for a nonprofit organization I was member of. He was the link between them and me. He actually was the one that wanted this statue (the other members didn't care about it). I agreed with him to do it at 60% of my competitors' budget, but we didn't close the price. But he told the organization I would do it for 10% of the price because it was the only way they would agree to have it done. I found out in the middle of the project.

Last week he called me. He offered me two businesses:
-A graffiti 2hour show, 4 days at 40/h each. I told him I charge 20/h, and that preparing materials+transport+the actual show was about 5h, so minimum he should be paying me 100/day.
He couldn't so no deal there. Everything OK (except the 45min unpaid time that I had to listen to him rant and whine to me about how low they were on money, blah blah blah.)

The next day he offers me another small job: a scenery for a kids' play for 200€ that they'll pay me in a month, but that must be finished IN JUST A F***ING WEEK. I tell him I will be doing 10h of work, no more, and the budget didn't allow for quality materials. Everything ok.
I workes until late every day (because I already had a packed week). I agreed because I knew the limit was 10h.
Of course 10h were not enough, so I do 3 more for free and I don't charge for the designs. I insist him on some facts:

-I'm working with very limited materials because there's no budget;
-I won't go to the place (45min trip) to set up the scenery for free;
-I will do what I can with that budget, and no more.

In the middle of the week he tells me they'll come pick up the pieces on FRIDAY instead of sunday, so more pressure to have it finished. At least I won't be worrying about it on the weekend, I think.)

I lend him several pieces of furniture for the theatre play, for free, and I agree to do some styrofoam shapes on the weekend to compensate because the scenery is unpainted because there has been no time nor budget to paint it.

So, on sunday the play director (with whom I had never spoken) calls me, tells me the scenery legs have broken when setting it up and asks me to do a 45 min commute to fix it, of course without paying me anything. My "friend" had told her I would do the scenery for 200€ so she assumed some kind of warranty.

Summarizing, due to f+++ing low budget and the fantasizing and half-truths of a narcissistic guy, I've let down some people that I don't know, generated a problem to them, and been working extra hours for 200€ that I probably will never see.

I have told this director that I am unable to go help them this Sunday afternoon if they don't pay this extra time, and she's told me that they can't even pay me the agreed 200€ for something that doesn't work. If they are theatre people someone should know how to fix it. I've offered to help them fix it from home, via phone communication, even suggested alternative ways of assembly. But probably I won't be seeing any money.

OK, so in order to be a bit positive, some advice for people that might face similar situations:

1. Don't discuss the job conditions with a phone call, but with whatsapp text messages or audio recordings. This way you can show them to third parties when a conflict arises.
2. Don't f***ing work with people that are low on money, or that ask you to lower your prices. Dump them as soon as they appear.
3. Some people don't change. Don't give them third opportunities.
4. Don't work for promises of something or because you're low on money. I accepted this job because I was closing the year with less money than I intended. Always be dominant and reject people that want to force you into work conditions that you aren't confortable with. Don't lose your position when negotiating.
5. When dealing with dangerous people/projects that give so many warning signals, always ask for payment first. Here they were tellling me they'd pay me like a month later so another warning signal. They wouldn't have paid me first.


Ok I'm going to take a deep breath now.
If someone wants to share some words of confort, tips or similar experiences I'll be grateful.
Have a nice weekend all!
That situation sounds frustrating. Sounds like a perfect example of the problems needed to wade through in order to get the experience in order to be successful. Your advice at the end sums it up nicely, esp getting your money up front! Another client will be a better fit for you. Good luck to you, and may your next client be sufficiently funded and cooperative!
 

Abrodos

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Sep 25, 2019
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Barcelona, Spain
That situation sounds frustrating. Sounds like a perfect example of the problems needed to wade through in order to get the experience in order to be successful. Your advice at the end sums it up nicely, esp getting your money up front! Another client will be a better fit for you. Good luck to you, and may your next client be sufficiently funded and cooperative!
Thank you for taking some time to read it! That's what I need now, someone that listens, because the damage is already done and the situation has no satisfactory solution for all parts.

I'd add as well another tip/advice:
Charge a lot more (from 30% at least to even 100% more) for comissions that are urgent. And make the client know it. He has to be aware that things need their proper time and that this extra cost is because of his lack of planification. Even if we freelancers have a flexible schedule, if someone is asking that you put their work before others', or before your own leisure/self-care time, that has to have an extra cost, and not a small one.

What really annoys me is that I know in some way it's not his fault. This guy actually is aware of his own narcissism and wrong behaviour (he's also been abusive towards his family and relationships) and is a very troubled individual, because he can't help falling in these dynamics...
And I want to help him, because I appreciate him and is also a very talented guy in many aspects, but making business in any way, even agreeing to do him some small favour as a friend, always ends up badly...
 

biophase

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Thank you for taking some time to read it! That's what I need now, someone that listens, because the damage is already done and the situation has no satisfactory solution for all parts.

I'd add as well another tip/advice:
Charge a lot more (from 30% at least to even 100% more) for comissions that are urgent. And make the client know it. He has to be aware that things need their proper time and that this extra cost is because of his lack of planification. Even if we freelancers have a flexible schedule, if someone is asking that you put their work before others', or before your own leisure/self-care time, that has to have an extra cost, and not a small one.

What really annoys me is that I know in some way it's not his fault. This guy actually is aware of his own narcissism and wrong behaviour (he's also been abusive towards his family and relationships) and is a very troubled individual, because he can't help falling in these dynamics...
And I want to help him, because I appreciate him and is also a very talented guy in many aspects, but making business in any way, even agreeing to do him some small favour as a friend, always ends up badly...

Well if you've gotten to the point where you needed to make a post about it, hopefully you have learned from this and will never do it again. For alot of jobs like this or people like this, always get the money upfront and the project in writing. And when doing these for a 3rd party where you are dealing with someone inbetween, you need to make it clear who your client is. Who is the person paying you and the person that you are delivering the product to. It wasn't clear in your story, if the client was the guy or the theater guy.
 
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karakoram

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OK, so in order to be a bit positive, some advice for people that might face similar situations:

1. Don't discuss the job conditions with a phone call, but with whatsapp text messages or audio recordings. This way you can show them to third parties when a conflict arises.
2. Don't f***ing work with people that are low on money, or that ask you to lower your prices. Dump them as soon as they appear.
3. Some people don't change. Don't give them third opportunities.
4. Don't work for promises of something or because you're low on money. I accepted this job because I was closing the year with less money than I intended. Always be dominant and reject people that want to force you into work conditions that you aren't confortable with. Don't lose your position when negotiating.
5. When dealing with dangerous people/projects that give so many warning signals, always ask for payment first. Here they were tellling me they'd pay me like a month later so another warning signal. They wouldn't have paid me first.


Ok I'm going to take a deep breath now.
If someone wants to share some words of confort, tips or similar experiences I'll be grateful.
Have a nice weekend all!

You know what to do going forward. You can learn from your mistakes. You can say to yourself: "this was a learning experience. It cost me some time and pain. What can I learn from this and change my future decisions when presented with a similar situation, so that I get a better outcome for myself?"

Remember that you cannot (and should not) control other people. You can only control yourself and make decisions for yourself. Remember that you decided to take his jobs in spite of knowing he's a bad client.

When I do consulting work (as an engineer), I pass on projects where the client is unwilling to pay my price and/or if I sense that they have unrealistic expectations. Sometimes this means losing out on a job, and I'm OK with that because some jobs are just not worth the hassle (pain and frustration) plus the opportunity cost. I would rather keep my sanity and my time for better jobs or do something else more productive.

Try to find out their expectations in the initial discussion. As you have history with this guy, you already know what his expections are. It sounds to me like you should pass on every job he tries to hire you for.

The question is: Will you change your behavior going forwards?

I will tell you a story (you can skip if you want, but it illustrates my point):

Years ago, I was asked to design a new product for a guy that wanted to found a startup. He managed to get a team to commit to many of the technical work (electrical & sound, marketing, and so forth). I was asked to do the mechanical design work - 3D CAD, plastics part and assembly design, hardware, etc. The founder was not technical, as he was a drywall contractor. He found some website that said his idea (and future company that did not exist yet) was worth a million dollars. He was offering me something like 2% equity.

After meeting with him the first time, and later meeting him and the rest of the team, I determined that they had no idea how they were going to manufacture this device, and they had no one on the team who had manufacturing experience. I did but the small equity offered wasn't nearly enough to justify me doing 80% of the work of launching this company. They were going to do a kickstarter. I thought about it for a couple of days, solicited some advice from friends and finally I decided to pass because the product itself wasn't that unique, and I could tell that the founder was in love with his idea and did not understand the ideas MJ talks about in Unscripted and TMF - about providing value to customers. The small equity offering just made it easier to say no. I believe I made the correct decision.
Here is the kickstarter: Slide out Bluetooth Speakers & Charger All-In-One Phone Case (Canceled)
 

Here

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Put these people on ignore so you don’t have to deal with them. (Works for me, anyway. But I’m pretty antisocial so you may not want to take a page from my book.)
 

Kelvin Fernandez

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This is one reason why stopped writing copy. The service industry just sucks.

There's people out there that you just can't make them happy with your work.

They want low prices, due tomorrow and the highest quality. Even giving them the best you can for the low price they're willing to pay they still expect more.

Next time just be firm in your price. Tell them you charge 100/h and stand your ground. This kind of people prey on the desperate. Once they find someone desperate they'll milk them of their time and energy.
 
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100k

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Don't worry, eventually you'll learn to value your time and smell people like that from miles away, at which point, you'll be able to tell them to sling it. :D

I had a guy approach me yesterday to build out a funnel for him... my old prices were $1500... but I told him its not worth my time at that price. But it was t'season and all that so I thought, f*ck it... then I find out he doesn't even have any material, no content, not even a damn website, NOTHING. He wants me to write all the copy, design the graphics and set up the funnel & website ... told him to do one... obviously not using those words.
 

Duane

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This is one reason why stopped writing copy. The service industry just sucks.

There's people out there that you just can't make them happy with your work.

They want low prices, due tomorrow and the highest quality. Even giving them the best you can for the low price they're willing to pay they still expect more.

The service industry doesn't suck, just some people in it. It's like that in every industry.

The book pumpkin plan is a great read for getting rid of these kinds of people.

Provide a premium service, charge a premium price, charge upfront, and don't give deals where it isn't deserved.

Sure you'll lose some potential clients, but most of them are not the right client for you or worth your time.

If you're having trouble getting an abundance of good clients, then you need to work on your service/marketing or look at the overall supply/demand for your service.
 

AgainstAllOdds

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Put these people on ignore so you don’t have to deal with them. (Works for me, anyway. But I’m pretty antisocial so you may not want to take a page from my book.)

Definitely take a page from this guy's book. You can block the person in your phone, filter his emails to spam, and not deal with him again.

I've told people before in no uncertain terms before to go f*ck themselves. They're pissed? Good. I don't want them thinking we have any relationship and to be taking up more of my time.

Over the years though, I've become more amicable.

The most respectful thing to do is to increase your prices to a point that calculates the pain in the a$$ of dealing with that person. I do that in my business. If I like someone --> Good prices. If I hate someone --> a**hole Tax.

The purposes of making money is to make your life better. If you're dealing with toxic clients to get there, then what's the point? In most scenarios you'd be better off with less money and no headaches. Especially in your scenario where it doesn't make sense economically for you to deal with that schmuck.

So in summary, you should either:
1. Raise your prices.
2. Block him in your phone book and stop taking his calls; or
3. Tell him to go f*ck himself.

#1 is the best economically. #3 is the most satisfying if the guy has zero influence over the rest of your business or life.
 
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BellaPippin

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My artist friend you gotta learn how to say NO after the first time they treat you like that. I know you want to be positive so I'll be angry for you for a second

WHAT AN a**hole, GOSH! THAT DUDE NEEDS A SLAP IN THE FACE WITH A CHAIR.

Done. Do not engage with this person anymore for your own sanity. It will always be like that.
 

Ing

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In such situations its hard for me, to turn around and not to do anything against that man.
In similar situations I have, when the man calls me again: I wine, that it was a flop and that he ows me ... money.
When he goes on telling me stories, I tell him, when I get my money.
When he calls me again, I ask for my money again.
I hate that, but after some calls, I have peace!

And remember : You ALLWAYS meet twice in life!
 

WJK

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OK I'm F*cking stupid or something.

THere's this guy I've known for several years. He's a theatre actor and director, extremely narcissistic, the kind of guy that asks for a small favour and once you agree, keeps increasing it more and more. Recently he's started to work making theatre shows for a big football club that (surprise!) gives the work to the one that charges less.

Some of the previous experiences I've had with him:
I created a statue for a nonprofit organization I was member of. He was the link between them and me. He actually was the one that wanted this statue (the other members didn't care about it). I agreed with him to do it at 60% of my competitors' budget, but we didn't close the price. But he told the organization I would do it for 10% of the price because it was the only way they would agree to have it done. I found out in the middle of the project.

Last week he called me. He offered me two businesses:
-A graffiti 2hour show, 4 days at 40/h each. I told him I charge 20/h, and that preparing materials+transport+the actual show was about 5h, so minimum he should be paying me 100/day.
He couldn't so no deal there. Everything OK (except the 45min unpaid time that I had to listen to him rant and whine to me about how low they were on money, blah blah blah.)

The next day he offers me another small job: a scenery for a kids' play for 200€ that they'll pay me in a month, but that must be finished IN JUST A F***ING WEEK. I tell him I will be doing 10h of work, no more, and the budget didn't allow for quality materials. Everything ok.
I workes until late every day (because I already had a packed week). I agreed because I knew the limit was 10h.
Of course 10h were not enough, so I do 3 more for free and I don't charge for the designs. I insist him on some facts:

-I'm working with very limited materials because there's no budget;
-I won't go to the place (45min trip) to set up the scenery for free;
-I will do what I can with that budget, and no more.

In the middle of the week he tells me they'll come pick up the pieces on FRIDAY instead of sunday, so more pressure to have it finished. At least I won't be worrying about it on the weekend, I think.)

I lend him several pieces of furniture for the theatre play, for free, and I agree to do some styrofoam shapes on the weekend to compensate because the scenery is unpainted because there has been no time nor budget to paint it.

So, on sunday the play director (with whom I had never spoken) calls me, tells me the scenery legs have broken when setting it up and asks me to do a 45 min commute to fix it, of course without paying me anything. My "friend" had told her I would do the scenery for 200€ so she assumed some kind of warranty.

Summarizing, due to f+++ing low budget and the fantasizing and half-truths of a narcissistic guy, I've let down some people that I don't know, generated a problem to them, and been working extra hours for 200€ that I probably will never see.

I have told this director that I am unable to go help them this Sunday afternoon if they don't pay this extra time, and she's told me that they can't even pay me the agreed 200€ for something that doesn't work. If they are theatre people someone should know how to fix it. I've offered to help them fix it from home, via phone communication, even suggested alternative ways of assembly. But probably I won't be seeing any money.

OK, so in order to be a bit positive, some advice for people that might face similar situations:

1. Don't discuss the job conditions with a phone call, but with whatsapp text messages or audio recordings. This way you can show them to third parties when a conflict arises.
2. Don't f***ing work with people that are low on money, or that ask you to lower your prices. Dump them as soon as they appear.
3. Some people don't change. Don't give them third opportunities.
4. Don't work for promises of something or because you're low on money. I accepted this job because I was closing the year with less money than I intended. Always be dominant and reject people that want to force you into work conditions that you aren't confortable with. Don't lose your position when negotiating.
5. When dealing with dangerous people/projects that give so many warning signals, always ask for payment first. Here they were tellling me they'd pay me like a month later so another warning signal. They wouldn't have paid me first.


Ok I'm going to take a deep breath now.
If someone wants to share some words of confort, tips or similar experiences I'll be grateful.
Have a nice weekend all!
My advice is to skim the cream. Choose better clients. Don't tell him off. Be humble. Tell him that you just can't seem to please him. He'll have to find someone else to do his work. Then pick up your "dollies" and go home. Take a deep breath. You have the right to fire clients.

A bad client will take 80% of your time and only account for 20% of your income. You can't afford this guy. He thinks he's being smart. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. You're not going to convince him that there's a problem with his behavior as long as you accept bad work from him. Walk away quietly and go find other clients.

I used to collect the business cards of a rival company or person -- especially a person who I didn't like much. When I told a bad client that I couldn't make them happy, I'd hand them one of those business cards. I'd suggest that maybe this other person could help them. Then I thank him for his business and everything that I've been able to learn from him. I always tried to end with a grateful moment. That act tied up my competition and I looked like a good guy. And it worked out well for me. I just went out and looked for better clients -- while I handed someone else my problem-baby client.

The bottom line is that it costs them nothing but a minute of their time to ask you to drop your price or do extra work for free. I always have preplanned perks for those moments. I reply that I can't do what they are asking, but I can do _______. That way no one gets their feeling hurt and I look like a good guy. None of this is personal against you. So, upon realizing that, change your reaction.

How did it work for me? By the time I retired, I turned down more jobs than I took by a margin of about 2 to 1. Yes, I had a superior education and I produced a superior product. I did difficult projects that most of the other people in my business didn't know how to do. And I charged a premium price from my chosen clients.
 
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Andy Black

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He’s a taker, and you’re a giver. The world will be your oyster when you learn to give so you’re not taken from. I’d rather be you than him. Hmm... I probably still am.

(Check out book “Give & Take”. There’s also a thread in here about it.)
 

Andy Black

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You chose to be a victim. What can we say?
I don’t think it’s as cut and dried. Some people’s tendency is to want to help people, and to find it hard to say No. Unfortunately there are those who’s natural tendency is to take advantage of that.

OP. Extricate yourself from that guy. Mentally thank him for tuning your spider senses for next time.
 
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Jon L

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Its interesting how people are the same across industries. I do custom software. Its the same with my industry. The most ungrateful clients I've had were also the cheapest.

Like others have said here, you've now learned to pick better clients. You have yet to learn to value your time better, though. $20/hr (or even $40) is not nearly enough for custom work of any kind. Not even in the same ballpark. Unless you live in India or something.

How much would a company that did set design charge for their work? That's the ballpark you need to be charging in. Maybe not as much because they have more overhead than you, but, maybe 50-75% of what they'd charge. I'm guessing that would end up at $80/hr or so.

Some people will balk at that price. That's fine. What happens when you charge more is that you start respecting yourself better, which drives you to do better work. Clients also respect you more, too.
 

Ahash31

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Thank you for taking some time to read it! That's what I need now, someone that listens, because the damage is already done and the situation has no satisfactory solution for all parts.

I'd add as well another tip/advice:
Charge a lot more (from 30% at least to even 100% more) for comissions that are urgent. And make the client know it. He has to be aware that things need their proper time and that this extra cost is because of his lack of planification. Even if we freelancers have a flexible schedule, if someone is asking that you put their work before others', or before your own leisure/self-care time, that has to have an extra cost, and not a small one.

What really annoys me is that I know in some way it's not his fault. This guy actually is aware of his own narcissism and wrong behaviour (he's also been abusive towards his family and relationships) and is a very troubled individual, because he can't help falling in these dynamics...
And I want to help him, because I appreciate him and is also a very talented guy in many aspects, but making business in any way, even agreeing to do him some small favour as a friend, always ends up badly...

gotta have some SELF RESPECT & SELF ESTEEM.

Also you need to LEARN HOW TO SAY NO.

Learn how to say “f*ck off” in business.

Stop CARING about what OTHER PEOPLE THINK OF YOU.
 

ZCP

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consider it tuition. now write up your internal company rules and spout them as 'policy' the next time this comes up.
then go get more work and do better
 
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Andy Black

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consider it tuition. now write up your internal company rules and spout them as 'policy' the next time this comes up.
then go get more work and do better
This is a good point.

Think of it as you representing your business. It’s not you turning them down, it’s your business turning them down.

Your job is to grow and protect your business. If your business folds because you can’t say No then you can no longer serve your clients and make the impact on the world that you want to.
 

BizyDad

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I understand how you feel. I love helping people who need help. I love theater, I love fixing problems, I love making money, and I've often undercharged for my services under "the right" circumstances.

But this man lies. He has shown himself to be extremely untrustworthy. He lacks integrity. And yet, you still are willing to let him off the hook? At the point at which you honestly feel this way:

What really annoys me is that I know in some way it's not his fault.

that's the point at which you're right, it isn't his fault anymore. It is now your fault.

If you can't hold him accountable for his actions, then you need to hold yourself accountable for yours. And if you do not like the outcome, accept the responsibility and do something about it. It sounds like you already know this, so that's awesome.

Final thought... Ignoring him, filtering him, or telling him to f*ck off won't make your problem go away, it only delays it until the next narcissist with a good story shows up. I think this is the best advice you've gotten on this thread:

consider it tuition. now write up your internal company rules and spout them as 'policy' the next time this comes up.
then go get more work and do better

This is a cheap lesson learned in the school of life where tuition is often much much more costly. Learn your lesson and pass the test next time. Good luck to you.
 

ZCP

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words we use ....
'accounting is requiring a deposit as you are a new client'
'everytime we have gone against our rules, those are the only bad debts in our history'
'may have some clients that could use your services. do you normally do the projects and then bill at the end and wait for 90 days for payment?'
'we are a 'for profit' company. if we can stay in business, we can continue to help you grow'

don't apologize for being awesome
 
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