Interested in Digital Marketing? Why not try pay per appointment/show model? Ask anything you need!

[Paul David]

I've received lots of invaluable advice on this forum from some wonderful people over the last few years so I thought it's time to give back.

If you are interested in digital marketing and have any questions on the pay per appointment/show model ask any questions here and I'll answer them with that I've learned.

I've gone from getting 2/3 clients in 3 months using the "retainer" model to 28 now in 4 weeks using the pay per show model.

Fire away!

 

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[Paul David]

How do you target your clients and what is your sales approach?

It's so easy you wouldn't believe.

I use two methods at the moment, cold email and facebook ads.

I also posted in a facebook group for my niche and signed up 6 clients. Yesterday I signed up a client from a cold email without even speaking to them.

Once you mention NO UP FRONT costs it's a no brainer for them. Some people doing this model charge a set up fee and use that to pay for ad spend. I personally don't, I pay all ad spend myself.

 

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[Paul David]

Compared to charging per month or alternate models, has pay per lead yielded higher revenue for you? Have you been able to collect lead fees from clients and how do you determine cost per lead?


In general, I like the model, but no upfront cost can also mean no commitment. Have most clients held up their end of the bargain to pay for the leads?

In my situation it's worked out better because it's a lot easier to sign clients. I do pay per show so I get paid once the leads i've referred arrive for their appointment. I use two clients I previously had on retainers to test the market and work out the figures.

In my niche the clients are terrible at following up, so even if you're the world's greatest marketer if the leads aren't getting called it's a waste of time. I had one client on a retainer go to Barcelona for 5 days and didn't tell me, the leads didn't get called until a week later. Guess what happens at the end of the month? They moan and say the leads are terrible.

I'm now completely eradicated that issue. Regarding payments it's all automated. I charge them by stripe or bank transfer automatically every Monday morning for clients they've seen from the previous week. You don't want to be chasing money from clients, especially after you've spent your own money attracting them in the first place.

 

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[Paul David]

What does your funnel look like? How do you go from capturing the leads to making sure they show up for the appointment ? Tell us about the tech stack.

I'm always testing but at the moment it's Facebook Ad>Lead form ad>Phone call and auto messaging follow up. I also run some ads to landing pages rather than lead ad.

For appointment show ups, we text/call them 24 hours before. We also send automated text reminders and information about the benefits of the treatment they're coming in. I control the whole process right up until the lead walks in the clients door.

 

[Paul David]

How do you know if your clients are not lying?

Firstly they know that we are going to follow up with any leads that they mark as no show.

Secondly they would have to ask our lead when they arrive and who they've never met or spoken to before to lie or ignore our phone calls when we try and follow up. I'm not saying it's never happening but I wouldn't have thought it would leave a good first impression on the lead.

 

[Paul David]

Yes, that is not uncommon. In fact, conversions would go up dramatically with simple followup.

Quicken Loans is a great example of this. If you filled out a mortgage/refi inquiry, you will get a call back within seconds.

I would be interested to hear how you solved the followup issue.

I have my own team that follows up with the leads from 9am-9pm 7 days a week.

 

[Paul David]

Many thanks for your answers to my earlier questions Paul, I'm still very much in awe of your concept

I think my biggest hurdle to trying your system is the fact I have (less than) zero experience in sales or cold-calling etc. A crucial step is clearly to contact businesses who have never heard of me and build up enough trust that they join forces with me.

I feel like I'm needing to climb a mountain. I know it can be done. But I don't know the route to take, equipment to use, which guide to hire etc.

To me, just thinking of phoning up companies who don't know me and then getting past the gatekeeper, building rapport with the business manager/owner, educating them to how I could bring them increased profits then training them on the booking system all seems like a real challenge.

Do you literally just call them out of the blue? Or warm them up beforehand with email campaigns, mailshots etc. Do you try to build your reputation in the industry somehow first?

Any tips or advice on how you learnt this stuff? I've started to do my research but it's early days. As always, thank you.

Yes as @PizzaOnTheRoof rightly said there's no need to do any cold calling with this model. When I was doing work on retainer I didn't call anyone for 6 weeks as I was so worried about their response. I did in the end pluck up the courage anyway and I certainly felt a lot better after I made the calls.
At the end of the day if you get it in your head that your trying to help them rather than the other way around you'll feel a lot let anxious about calling. As a lot of people say on this forum you only grow when you get out your comfort zone.

Look it at from the business owners point of view, you're offering to provide a client for them without them paying anything up front. Why would they not at least try it for 30 days? Now I get surprised when somebody says I'll think about it. These type of people probably won't be in business long anyway.

Run a facebook ad and state the audience you're looking for. Ie Attention Dental Practices, we have 15-30 clients a month looking for your services and we'll send them to you with ZERO up front cost.
You'll be amazed at how many responses you get.

Today I'm building out a messenger bot to qualify potential clients that respond to the ad so that by the time I do get on the phone with them they're suitable and very interested.

 

[Paul David]

Aaaaand .... my mind is blown yet again, thanks Paul for the clarification!

I also read somewhere one day, I think it may have been in the slight edge book (which i highly recommend if you haven't read it) that on average 10 people (something like that) cry only at funerals, then if it's raining outside only 40% will go to the actual burial after the service.

You may be wondering where I'm going with this...... well when you think those statistics are based on families, friends and closest people built up over a lifetime and yet only 10 people will cry and 40% won't attend the burial if it's raining. Why do you give a crap what someone who you don't even know thinks on the end of a phone call??

What's the worse that can happen? You mess the whole call up and they don't do business. So what? You're now another NO away closer from hearing a YES.

Like I said you don't even need to "cold call" with this model, just get on the phone with people who've shown an interest in what you've got to offer. However you could still actually do this to build up confidence.

You and me and everyone else will be dead one day so try and not to worry about such insignificant experiences in the grand scheme of things.

I'm saying this because I used to worry about the exact same thing. You'll look back at this in 6 months and say to yourself why was I worried or anxious about that!!

 

[Paul David]

How is going so far with the business for you?

So many things have changed since I started this thread!

Over the past 2 months, I've been working with clients in one niche. I'm essentially charging them for my software but I also help them with Facebook ads.

The problem is that a lot of these people are very impatient when it comes to ads. The ad will be running for 3 days and they'll say the ad isn't working, can we change it etc. Or the ad was great for a week but now it's gone quiet.

I've even been having to educate them just on general business. One client called me and said I've got a new lead what do I say to them when I call? ha.

This week I've launched my software for any business niche. I'm charging a monthly fee for the software and I'm not including any ads. I'm out of the game.

I only got into marketing to grow my former eCommerce brand. I'm much more comfortable and happier in just selling software. Throughout this journey, I've now found my calling.

My goal is for 1000 paying users in 12 months. I'm only 979 short!

 

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[Paul David]

So you have one ad that covers appointments for multiple clients? Or would you create a new ad for each new client?

Have you tried this for Financial Services? I've seen guys doing a similar model for annuities

Gohighlevel? Do you re-use the LP? Seems like this is really hot right now - going to bring something for financial advisors.

Same ad for every client so it's easier to scale.

Nope I've not worked in the Financial services niche before.

Yes I use Highlevel. All the ads (facebook messenger ones at the moment) are all run under my brand so I simply duplicate the ad and change the radius of where I'm showing it around their business address.

 

[Paul David]

This is good advice. Thank you.

I like the idea of keeping everything handled in house and paying for ad spend myself. It's easier to scale and productize in the future.

Any advice for cold emailing offering a retainer and not sounding like the billionth marketing agency?

You've got to come up with something that makes you stand out over everybody else, unfortunately everyone is offering free trials, minimum number of clients a month or your money back and things like that.

With digital marketing I thought to myself, what exactly do my clients want and how can I best serve them. The majority of businesses want paying customers. Nothing more, nothing less. So I devised a system making that become as close to reality as possible up until the point I lose control. That means I can get clients into their door but after that it's down to them to convert them. And I'm that confident I can do that, pay me only when they turn up.

A customer who makes an effort to turn up for an appointment is 3/4 of the way committed to moving forward generally.

Now see the difference between that and another 50 marketers who say give me $1000 a month up front and I'll send you 50 leads that you need to call and convert?

If you're offering retainers you're going to need multiple outreach channels in addition to cold email also. Linked in messages, facebook messenger messages, facebook ads, visiting businesses in person, cold calls. It's a numbers game. Aim to speak to 20 new people every single day. And do this for 6 months. Someone will say Yes during this time but you might have to hear 100 no's first, just remember every No get's you closer to a yes.

 

[Paul David]

I really, really like this business model. Sorry for another barrage of questions but you're really helpful!

Do you invest in any brand awareness in your niche or just run PPC?

Does it concern you that leads might be uncomfortable giving their info to a "lead mill"? How do you create trust?

I've had some people say my landing page just looks like an info grab that doesn't care about the customer. But then again Booking.com is a billion dollar company, they don't actually own the assets.

How are you capturing the leads? Landing page only, full brand website, Google Ad lead form/call ads, content?

Do you charge a flat rate for shows or based on location or warmth of the lead?

I'd really like to start with this model off the bat, but you said I should try a retainer for a while to get an average cost per lead. My only concerns are competition and actually getting clients to sign up. Seems like your model solves those issues and would be far easier to get clients.

I've got some cash in the bank to fund me if I accidentally lowball my prices and lose money at first. Should I still go for retainer first or jump in with this model?

Once again thank you so much!

I did run some brand awareness ads for my brand before getting clients. My Facebook page alone now has over 5000 likes. You can get these cheap from places like Bangladesh to get you started.

As far as the leads are concerned we and the place they are going to are one and the same. Never had a single issue with anyone saying I didn't know you are a middle man etc.

For leads I'm running Facebook ads using a combination of messenger, landing pages and lead forms. Yes I also have a website for my brand.

I charge a flat rate for shows and this is important. If you worked on a revenue share your money would then depend on them closing not to mention telling you the truth on what happened. What if they were made to wait longer than normal for their appointment? Or the staff were rude to them and they walked out without paying - why should I not get paid in that instance? So it's a flat rate. If they close for $750 I still only take my flat rate.

Regarding Ad spend i pay for this all on American Express Gold card, which is paid back in full at the end of the month. I can then use the points in exchange for flights, hotels etc. In the US you can also get lot better benefits from that card, like spend $5000 a week and get 4x the reward in points. So when you start to scale you can probably travel the world for free on the points. Either way it gives you a way of paying for ads and then getting paid from the client before you pay your card balance off. So it's good for cash flow.

If you some research in a niche and have some capital to pay for ads then you can do pay per show. Obviously I'm not going to tell you what to do but it's just what is working for me.

 

[Paul David]

Your posts are inspirational. I immediately brainstormed for niches where this could worked and made an simple booking site for idea validation with Simplybook.
I think attracting customers with this model won't be hard because they only pay when a lead walks into their business. Who doesn't want that?! No upfront costs et cetera.

Do you have any tips for attracting the leads by FB Ads? I started yesterday with my first FB ad for my niche with $5 ad budget / day. I will run this one for 7 days and then decide to keep/kill it. The ad photo is a HQ picture of the desired situation. Targeting is very broad: females in my city.

Yes it's extremely simple to sign up clients.

Are you running FB ads to get leads to send to the clients or get clients to send the leads to?

For leads to send to clients, just set up your targeting and have an attractive offer in the ad. Remember people aren't generally on Facebook to shop so it must be something to stop them from scrolling past. Call out their pain point at the top. Check out Groupon offers in your niche and see what people are buying.

For Ads to get clients, simply craft an ad explaining that you have customers who need their services and you're looking for someone to send these customers to. And emphasize that they paying nothing until a customer has arrived.

 

[Paul David]

Thanks Paul, am laser-focused on this concept of yours, hitting it hard with what free time I have. Adjusting my thinking is like turning one of those massive oil tankers at sea, it takes time, can't just handbrake it
Do you still do any of the 1 on 1 consultation? Just in case I need it...

Yes sure just send me a DM if you need that.

I've been doing some thinking over the weekend and I'm going to test something this week which may be a game changer in terms of signing clients.

I'm going to start running my Facebook ads (to sign client partners) to a messenger bot that qualifies them, then shows them a video (which is essentially replacing the sales call) explaining exactly how the program works, costs etc, FAQs, objection handling. Then send them a link to sign up.

Completely eliminating the need to even speak to the client before they become a partner.

 

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[The-J]

This exact model has been in the back of my mind for a few years now. So many do pay-per-lead, and that always struck me as having certain hurdles that I didn't care for, so I've always stayed with my agency model. Buuuut this model is something I've always thought to try... at some point. Pay for results. I'm happy to hear someone actually taking this approach and making it work. It really is a no brainer.

Same. I love this model. My hesitation has been mainly because of the upfront risk that I take on, and the amount of control that the client has to cede. You really do need a high level of control in order to make this work. You need to own the landing page, the ad accounts and campaigns, and even the offer. I was under the impression that business owners didn't want to give up that control, because I had presented similar options to my clients and they all said no. Not one said yes. My clients would much rather pay for services than pay for leads.

Thing is, it's mainly because they came to me for services, not for leads. Of course they want results, but they want to pay for the service rather than the result. If they came to me for leads then it would be a different story. It's not actually because there aren't business owners who are willing to pay per lead, it's because the business owners I work with don't want to pay per lead.

I really do love the idea of shifting away risk from apprehensive business owners. Paying ONLY when they make money is an awesome model. It works for lawyers, why wouldn't it work for marketing agencies?

I remember @Andy Black sent me something about a Youtube video ads agency who does this exact same model. Pay for results. The agency fronts the ad spend, makes the creative, controls the ad accounts. They don't control the offer but they do track what they generate. They have input on the offer, though (as any good agency should).

I bet this model can work in other markets, maybe harder markets. I aim to build up to this.

 

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[Paul David]

Just a little update, since facebook messenger is now essentially useless in Europe for running ads. I've now set up a chat bot (with live chat option) as a landing page which is working fine.

It's not as ideal as messenger was, as when a user has left the page we can no longer message them but its a working solution nonetheless.

 

[Paul David]

Thanks for your reply.

Tell us about the Technology Stack you use.

How many sms msg. do you send? How often.

I've found that with leads for service based industries the best form of follow up is calling them within 3-5 mins of them completing the form.

We do send like an introduction sms and email straight away but then after that we continously try and get hold of them on the phone. SMS messages and emails we probably send around 3 over the space of a week if they don't pick up the phone.

 

[Paul David]

Presumably the clients are giving you access to their calendars for you to book the appointments in?

Dan

Yes we book directly on there but we only add their name, our email address and phone number. We then add them to our own internal calendar and use our automated system for reminders etc.

 

[Paul David]

Could you elaborate on your cold email and FB ad strategy? I like the idea of no upfront costs but setting up and managing bookings sounds overwhelming. Would you recommend just a straight retainer for a beginner?

I'm struggling looking for a job now and about to say F it and start freelancing.

I’ve automated the cold email process. Basically I send out an email saying we’re looking for someone to handle 15-30 clients a month. There are no up front costs and we handle everything on our side right up until they arrive for their appointment.

For Facebook ads I call out the owners in the niche and say more or less the same. Booking appointments is easy. We have access to our clients calendars and I have a portal set up with pages for each client detailing their details and links for their calendars etc. We just book directly on their calendar.

It’s all automated also using zapier, google sheets and high level.

For a beginner you need to choose a niche and stick with it for 6 months minimum. I’d personally do retainers for a couple of clients then you can use their money to work out cost per lead etc. Then later on transition to pay per show.

You need to know the numbers for pay per show so you don’t undercHarge and end up losing money.

 

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[Paul David]

That's a smart move because it simplifies the system indeed. But how do you sell the treatment provider to the idea of having to pay you €60 per appointment + also giving a discount to the people that want a treatment? Doesn't this take up a large amount of their profit?

No because if we use dental as an example a retainer or invisalign can cost $6000 so they don't need many clients to make a profit.

 

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[BizyDad]

Setting up some automations in HighLevel now and reading through this thread again.

Can you describe your funnel that leads go through? From Facebook Ad to booking?

Because I assumed every part of your funnel is automated but after reading here again and using HighLevel, it sounds like you talk to the lead and manually book their appointment to make sure their time slot is ok.

And the fact that you have a team in place to follow up and book appointments for leads.

Have you set up a chatbot system in HighLevel to automate this stuff?

Also, do you book people through a landing page or just through the actual Facebook Ad?

The way I have it set up is this:

1. Lead fills out form on location specific landing page
2. Lead is added to a campaign that sends a booking link (my calendar) to them
3. Lead books on my calendar with their info
4. Send a review request or follow up if marked no show

Man, I've been looking forward to a @PizzaOnTheRoof progress thread for a while now.


Is it going to happen?



Ok, we're close though, right? Tell me we're close...

 

[BizyDad]

Man I had some things going then 2020 happened. Got laid off. Got fat. Quit coming to the forum. Depression. Lost my last client.

Started lurking the forum again and came across this thread and it seems up my alley to get things going again with a new/better method for lead gen.

I tend to bite off more than I can chew and too soon.

Right now looking for another job and this as a side hustle. Gotta pay rent first.

Yeah bro, I hear that. 2020 hit a lot of us hard. I'm sorry to hear about your struggle. Keep picking yourself up and keep fighting. I'm rooting for you, and if you ever need someone to chat with, I'm a simple DM away.

 

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[Paul David]

Ok so I got a video presentation done on fiver for $200.

It's a 4 minute video explaining exactly how my pay per show program works and also addresses the main objection I get from potential clients.

I'm running a facebook Ad to a landing page which has the video on and then clients can sign up underneath using a form.

Advert went live on Saturday so far I've signed up 13 clients without speaking to any of them.

 

[Paul David]

That's unreal !!! This system you have created is just amazing and you're still evolving it lol Seriously impressive work

I spent the weekend re-reading all the info you've shared on your two threads and I'm back with a few more questions, if that's ok?

You seem to be using some advanced auto chat bots, what software are you using? And any tips or advice based on your own experience in terms of getting the most use out of them?

You've never mentioned google adwords, are you using them anywhere to obtain leads or clients? If not, how come? I'm just curious.

Do you use a simple legal contract of some sort with your business client partners?

If the partner business has no online booking system you can access, do you pass on that client? Also, for what other reasons have you decided not to take a client into your system?

You've talked about "It's all run under a brand I created inside this niche." How much time and effort are you spending on the landing pages/site or lead forms that you are sending customers to? For example, if your targeted industry was "tree surgeon" services, is it a full detailed tree surgeon general info site with a large `book now` form on every page OR a simple low info single landing page containing a large `book now` form? My instinct is always to go over the top and build a complex confidence building site that helps educate and motivate the customer to fill in the `book now` form but maybe it's just not necessary and not worth the time? Or do you maybe fill out the LP later on, after the niche is proven to be profitable?

As always, thank you for your time

I use many chat for my messenger bots. Initially I paid someone on fiver to create a bot, then after watching how the leads were corresponding with it I tweaked it and now have it converting a lot better. Many Chat is easy once you get the hang of it.

With my niche the leads ask certain questions so now the bot asks them and all generally we need to do is manually take over to book appointments.

I've not used Google ads yet, it is something I'm going to look into for getting leads for my clients. Probably set that up this week actually.

I don't have any complicated contract, when I used to work on retainer model I'd use Panda docs but now I simply get them to fill a form in on my website.

If they don't have an online booking system I walk away, I've also just checked and one of the new sign ups is in Oban in Scotland and the audience size for facebook ads is only 14k. So i'm walking away from that client also.

For my brand I have a main website (which I did on Highlevel) which looks just like any other website in this niche. And I also have a facebook and instagram page. I only the book now button in the header of the website. Then it takes them to form to fill in for us to call them back.

You don't need anything fancy, just something that looks respectable and then start posting regular content on the facebook page. I got lots of cheap facebook likes from Bangladesh so the site has some social feedback.

I don't use landing pages anymore, simply send all the leads to the messenger bot.

 

[Paul David]

Hi Paul,

I have read all your thread and I have been trying to figure out how I can run my own LeadGen Agency for a long time, it was very helpful.

What is your Highlevel affiliate link? And what is the difference between Highlevel and Clickfunnels?

Thanks

Highlevel has lots more built into it than Clickfunnels.

You can create membership sites, websites, landing pages, funnels, set up campaigns to automatically follow up with leads including sms, email, phone, ringless voicemails.

My whole automated process is handled by Highlevel.

That's my affiliate link: https://www.gohighlevel.com/main-page?fp_ref=minotaur-media16

 

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[Paul David]

Man here you are killing it on autopilot and I've emailed 23 Facebook leads so far with ZERO replies lol

I'm getting probably 1-2 leads every day or so for about $3 a lead. What could I be doing wrong?

Have you tried calling them? If you get no answer I'd suggest sending them a text message asking when is the best time to call them to discuss the program they have shown an interest in.

The 13 clients that signed up over the weekend, only 4 so far have filled in the client survey (which is the next step). So it's just a case of pushing them along.

 

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[Paul David]

Same. I love this model. My hesitation has been mainly because of the upfront risk that I take on, and the amount of control that the client has to cede. You really do need a high level of control in order to make this work. You need to own the landing page, the ad accounts and campaigns, and even the offer. I was under the impression that business owners didn't want to give up that control, because I had presented similar options to my clients and they all said no. Not one said yes. My clients would much rather pay for services than pay for leads.

Thing is, it's mainly because they came to me for services, not for leads. Of course they want results, but they want to pay for the service rather than the result. If they came to me for leads then it would be a different story. It's not actually because there aren't business owners who are willing to pay per lead, it's because the business owners I work with don't want to pay per lead.

I really do love the idea of shifting away risk from apprehensive business owners. Paying ONLY when they make money is an awesome model. It works for lawyers, why wouldn't it work for marketing agencies?

I remember @Andy Black sent me something about a Youtube video ads agency who does this exact same model. Pay for results. The agency fronts the ad spend, makes the creative, controls the ad accounts. They don't control the offer but they do track what they generate. They have input on the offer, though (as any good agency should).

I bet this model can work in other markets, maybe harder markets. I aim to build up to this.

Very true. Although I go a step further than pay per lead, I do pay per show. So I only get paid when the leads show up for their appointment.

I'm actually just about to test pay per booking on a percentage basis for another niche. So very similar to what I'm doing now but we know the value the lead is paying my client beforehand. We just schedule the appointments and make 25-30%. If the clients upsell the leads during the appointment then that's just a bonus for them.

 

[Paul David]

UPDATE

I started outreach this week for the new niche I'm targeting with this system that's allowed to work in the UK during this current lockdown.

I've created my own brand and joined several facebook pages related to this niche. I posted a link to a video on my brands page in one of those niches and it got 300 views in 2 hours. I then created a lookalike audience on facebook from those views which gave me an audience size of 370,000 people.

I started running ads two days ago to try and sign up clients, I'm getting leads for £0.62 each, I've signed up 5 clients already and have my calendar booked up with calls every 30 mins from 10am today (5 mins time) to 7pm. Same for tomorrow. I think there's 36 booked calls on my calendar!

Let's see what the next two days brings!

 

[Ronak]

Yes, chasing payments isn't fun-- I'm still waiting on $4000 from client for work done in November, while they want to add more projects. No more work until past payments are paid.

I still like the model, just needs a few tweaks:

1) Upfront payments--it takes some of the appeal away of "no upfront spend", but you can mitigate with a money back guarantee.

2) Choose your clients-- they must have a robust sales/followup process and in general be good with customers.

3) Set expectations-- if they've never done advertising before, they will not realize that the majority of leads will not convert, and you only need a small percentage to make a great return. If they are comparing your leads to referrals, that's not going to go well for anyone.

4) Larger clients-- they have more sophistication and are used to paying for services/value.
Currently working on this myself.

Saas is not a bad option, plus it's more scalable, though less cash flow upfront.

 

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[Paul David]

Facebook ads I spent $140 and got 70 leads in one week. I signed up around 16 from the Ads, some weren't suitable and I've still got 30 leads left to call!