Income Store, Legit? NO, A SCAM AS WE PREDICTED.

[Ecom man]

** MODERATOR'S NOTE:
These posts have been extracted from another thread into its own thread and slightly modified for discussion.

Did a ton of study on it. Decided that I would rather make a guaranteed 15% a year @ Income Store with virtually unlimited upside than to make 16% a year with almost no long term upside.

If you have about 100k+ to invest I’ve got something that I did that’s “guaranteed” 15% a year as a minimum. (Guaranteed contractually but of course something could go wrong if SHTF) And no I’m not hawking it lol.

https://incomestore.com/

 

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[ApparentHorizon]

I can see why they don't risk their money.

Isn't this what hedge funds do

Accumulate other people's money (OPM!!!!) in a short amount of time, instead of slowly building up your own site then reinvesting.

I'd be more interested in being on the other side of this transaction.

Learn some marketing skills PPC, SEO, branding, copy. etc. Use the money to run ads, etc. All with minimal risk to you.

 

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[biophase]

For 100k they buy one and then also build one.

You can sell your website anytime you like to “get out” of the contract. There isn’t a minimum time period before you can sell. You can’t get out of the management contract without selling the site however.

Did you mean "or" build one? Are you saying that you got 2 websites for $100k?

When you sell the website is the profit split 50/50 also?

If you were to listed your site(s) on the market now, would you be able to list them both for a sum of $100k?

If they bought a site for you, you should be able to list it for $100k the next day.
If they built a site for you, how long until the website is worth $100k?

I'm willing to bet that the reason they say also build one is to keep the value of your investment ambiguous so that you can't clearly define the value of the site that they bought. If I buy and build you a site, I can say that I bought you a site worth $25k and will build you a site worth $75k from scratch.

 

[biophase]

Not too many places you can get a 15%+ return for life. Too good to be true? We shall see....but I like my chances. Lot's of naysayers here...but give me some options that will do what this has done and claims it will do in the future with the same or lower risk!!!

Glad to hear that you've almost got back your original investment in returns. 15% for 4 years is great. But can you get your initial $100k back when you want? If not, then you've really just lost money, or lended money to them at less than 0% interest.

 

[tmb22]

Haha I wonder how many new forum users you're getting from this @MJ DeMarco . Google "income store" and this thread is the 3rd result. Google "income store scam" and this thread is the 1st result

 

[DaveC]

Funny, I just had a conversation on IS with some of my partners. I'm not sure what went on here behind the scenes. I had talked to them about investing maybe 4 years ago but felt that the return simply didn't match the risk. But based on the letter, it looks like they were really just chasing the latest online fad (Google->Facebook->Shopify). It just brings back to the front the concepts of control. I've actually been moving away from "passive" online business investing because of the massive changes happening with Google, Facebook, and Amazon.

 

[CareCPA]

Feeling really sorry for the loss of other investors. As MJ stated, I hope you recover emotionally if not financially.

I was burnt by a RE scheme in the past which led me to read (and re-read) Millionaire Fastlane in 2016.

After reading, I was so excited that I went to work on building a business seriously for the last few years. Many 80 hour weeks later, I now have a profitable business generating 6 figures a month.

I never knew that a fastlane forum existed . I only came across this forum last month in December because I heard of income store falling apart and my business is exactly same as income store. Except I don't take others money.

I build income generating sites mostly for myself. I did take investors money once, but been very scared to take more money since. Because in this business, finding good sites to buy is the bottleneck. Money is not. We are having a hard time putting the money we generated to good use back in the business. Finding good sites is so hard that we spend thousands of hours in finding and doing due diligence on new sites.

When I heard guaranteed 15% returns, it didn't sound surprising because 15% is definitely possible. I guess any legitimate business will be able to do more than 15% yearly. I was more amazed at how they are able to scale to 200+ employees and 500 websites. Here we are struggling to scale to 20 websites.

Watching income store fall apart closely is teaching us a lot of lessons. The most important being, this business model doesn't scale to the levels Income Store tried to achieve. May be in the future, when there are as many websites as houses it will scale, but for now it just doesn't. We are making significant changes in our business strategy to not end up where Income store did, not in terms of losing others money but in terms of becoming insolvent.

Thanks to all the INSIDERS and investors for sharing their experience. It surely helped us to adjust our strategy of growth.

Nice to see you joined.

I bet we could learn a lot about growing REAL income-generating sites if you're inclined to share some wisdom (but I'd put it in a new thread so it doesn't get intermixed with IS).

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

To wit again, math never lies.

The Income Store owner arrested on fraud charges for allegedly operating $75 million Ponzi scheme

Income Store owner Kenneth Courtright was arrested Wednesday and charged with fraud for allegedly operating a Ponzi scheme that raised $75 million from more than 500 investors

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[Bekit]

Ok you made me curious.

I read through the titles of all the posts from the last week, and I bet it's this one.

OFF-TOPIC - Launchvector

Hello everyone! Has anyone heard of launchvector.com? Is the company legit. Here is their business model: They seek capital partners who can invest 100k or 200k to purchase an undervalued Shopify stores. The company launchvector does all the work of acquisition + scaling and marketing on...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

@Tau Ceti - your scam sniffing skills are on point.

 

[DustinH]

Why would the management companies not buy and retain 100% of the profits?
Are we talkin acquiring websites for 5k or 500k.

Bing!

 

[biophase]

I think the big push back is not that he's looking for advice to buy it - it's that he's already bought it and now everybody's pooh-poohing on the investment idea.

I'm not poo pooing the idea. In fact, I think about it from the other side. If someone on the forum gave me $100k to go buy a website and I'd have to run it for 50% of profits, would I do it?

So I get a broker to find me a business that I buy for $100k. It should be putting out at a minimum $30k a year or I wouldn't be buying it.

Now, I run the day to day and give $15k to the owner, and keep the other $15k. However, I would have expenses to run it. Either VA's, my employee time, management, PPC, SEO. So maybe I spend $10k a year and end up with $5k a year? Now as a seasoned ecommerce person, I would not be doing all this work for $5k/year even if I didn't put up any of my own money.

I think a much better plan would be for me to purchase a website for $75k. Pocket the other $25k. Now this website should be making $25k a year, so me and the owner split $12,500. I can use my $10,000 and use to manage and grow the website. Maybe I make $2,500 a year now. But I've made $25k on the buy.

I'd love to hear from @Ecom man if the website that they purchased was listed on any business broker websites. I think this would really help the legitimacy of the website.

 

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[biophase]

Can you recommend a good broker or listings site that you use?
Im aware of FE / Flippa / Centurica

That's so weird that I've never heard of FE or Centurical. But I think it's because I'm looking in ecom most of the time.

I generally stay away from Flippa.

Bizbuysell.com
theFBAbroker.com
empireflippers.com

 

[AllenCrawley]

Seems like a Ponzi scheme for sure.

 

[biophase]

Hey Biophase,

I am currently looking to possibly go down this road with them so have been curious about ecom's experience with them. Basically, how it is explained (from my understanding) is that the 100K is used to purchase an existing site with existing revenue stream...theoretically the site they purchase should be doing around 30-50K in gross revenue due to the valuation multiple to buy it. They then are supposed to "enhance" the site and business model to grow the revenue (I was not aware of the second site that Ecom mentions...this may be something they used to do but do not anymore, not sure). Within a certain time frame (60-90 days from your investment) they commit/guarantee to pay you a monthly payment equal to 15% of your investment annually (so 1,250 per month) regardless of how much the actual revenue is (unless it's higher). Once the revenue goes above 1,250 per month you split the incremental with them 50/50.

They say that 60% of their sites earn more than the minimum within the first year, 90% of them earn more within the 2nd year, and 100% earn more within 3 years. How much more is much more of an elusive question.

They started with authority sites and have switched over to e-commerce sites recently due to the changing web landscape as they have explained it.


To 100k, I am assuming the breakeven Ecom is referring to is the 18K he made so far and the value of site/asset at 75K if he was to sell it.

Why would you even go down this road after the OP's experience? Do you have $100k to spend? Go buy a real $100k business that makes $30k a year. Get your 30% return that you control.

What is the draw for you here?

I might do this deal with you if you really want to waste your money. Give me $100k. I will go purchase a $50k ecom site that makes $15k a year. I will hire a VA for $15k to run the store and put aside $5k to outsource the creation of really crappy secondary site for "SEO". Then I will pocket the $30k for my troubles. I can repeat this with 4 people and pocket $120k and then tell you to wait 3 years for results. Then I dissolve my LLC and sign the stores over to you at the end of a year.

 

[Tiffany Clark]

I was a contracted writer with Income Store. They were a month behind in paying us, and the communication from the company was terrible. However, last week, Ken contacted me personally and asked to reach out to other people on the team. As of 12/17, we've been paid. Some people are awaiting full payment due to a Paypal issue limiting the company's cash flow (Paypal does this sometimes if you send too much money in one day).

What I know is that for many years, this was a company that treated its employees and contractors very well and paid on time. I loved the work I did for them. I hope they get their issues ironed out so that we can all get back to enjoying our work there once again.

 

[MakMac]

The group of about 100 contracted writers have been paid! The company had a little setback but they're working to fix it.

"Little setback" Not paying their entire customer base for 4 months...counts as a "little setback" in what spin zone?

 

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[MakMac]

I'm curious how many of these new accounts are Income Store employees/owners/investors trying to put a positive spin on things...

Right...look at their GlassDoor account for manipulation waves over a few days to push down negative reviews. They have had numerous waves over the past 2 years.

 

[transient]

I know this is off topic so I'll only post about this once but...

The IS model always had me scratching my head. How could they possibly promise those returns in perpetuity? The internet doesn't work like that.

Their original today's growth model works I think. The "authority site" model. They would help you, the expert in some field, build a site. They host it, run it, keep it updated and secure, help you with regular redesigns, and take some cut. No guaranteed returns.

I'd like to take it further by matching people with domain knowledge with people with money. The people with money fund the people with knowledge to buy/build/run a site and then once active take a cut off the top to profit on the investment. The IS type company would only ever be responsible for valuing a site and helping with the purchase, hosting, match making, security, redesigns, SEO, and cheap supplementary content. Ecommerce help and support as well. I think there is plenty of money to be made. Just not 15% guaranteed. The workload here is far more manageable and the main pressure for success/failure would be placed between investor and and expert rather than on the IS type company. IS type company would just be a support system... Kind of like a franchise.

There is definitely a large group of people with good ideas and work ethic but little tech skill, and a large group of people with money they want to invest in something risky. I suppose I'm drawn to this because I have most of the right skills to be the IS type company in this instance.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Yeah we shouldn't be hijacking This Thread can you start a new one

Threads extracted a new thread started.

 

[Merging Left]

You get 15% back annually, but what about your principal? Does the $1,250/mo get added to your investment and compound? Is there a term after which you get your initial investment back? Do they have an exit plan for the website?

Otherwise it sounds to me like you bought a 15% annuity, and you won't start to see a profit for like 6.5 years.

 

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[ApparentHorizon]

Ignore "We have X number of entries in Google's database." That's meaningless.

Their weak point is definitely SEO, which is a large part of their strategy. Watch the words "build authority" in their presentation.

They cross promote their pages as well, similar to a PBN. Though, it seems like your own site can get in on that.

They use Adsense for an income stream. This is good for getting on Google's good side in the SERPs. Though other methods would yield greater returns.

Yes, but they would NEVER guarantee a return of any amount, unless they were run by Madoff. Granted he only claimed of 11-12% returns so he can’t hold a candle to the Income Store. What could possibly go wrong here??

You have an easier time projecting returns if you're the one responsible for the operations. Though, a "guaranteed return" should still be taken cautiously.

They also mentioned IAC, which they're basically copying at a smaller scale. IAC IAC/InterActiveCorp Stock Quote

It doesn't seem like IS allows pooled buy ins, so maybe one of you here could start something like that. Allowing a group of people to put in 10k or so, on 1 project.

The idea doesn't look half bad.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

total cost would have been around $120k-$130k because you have to buy their inventory also.

I don't think they're buying eCom product based sites, they're buying pure affiliate/ad-sense sites based on traffic. Highly dependent on Google serps. IOW, they're one Google algo shift from being out of business.

 

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[ned.ryerson]

I think the big push back is not that he's looking for advice to buy it - it's that he's already bought it and now everybody's pooh-poohing on the investment idea.

 

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[Ecom man]

I'm not poo pooing the idea. In fact, I think about it from the other side. If someone on the forum gave me $100k to go buy a website and I'd have to run it for 50% of profits, would I do it?

So I get a broker to find me a business that I buy for $100k. It should be putting out at a minimum $30k a year or I wouldn't be buying it.

Now, I run the day to day and give $15k to the owner, and keep the other $15k. However, I would have expenses to run it. Either VA's, my employee time, management, PPC, SEO. So maybe I spend $10k a year and end up with $5k a year? Now as a seasoned ecommerce person, I would not be doing all this work for $5k/year even if I didn't put up any of my own money.

I think a much better plan would be for me to purchase a website for $75k. Pocket the other $25k. Now this website should be making $25k a year, so me and the owner split $12,500. I can use my $10,000 and use to manage and grow the website. Maybe I make $2,500 a year now. But I've made $25k on the buy.

I'd love to hear from @Ecom man if the website that they purchased was listed on any business broker websites. I think this would really help the legitimacy of the website.

Yes, the websites that they buy are mainly through FE international.

I have no problem with any saying anything about Income store. I don’t own or advertise it and don’t need or want anyone to sign up for sure. I’m not planning on buying any more until I see how it pans out in a couple of years anyway.

Of course it’s real easy to say XYZ will happen but long term who knows what will happen. As it is now I’m 1.25% a month which hopefully will increase soon as the websites gain momentum. If it works, great, if not I sell the site/sites and get what I can out of them.

 

[GuestUser4aMPs1]

 

[bravusha]

You realize that everything you said is irrelevant? The fact that you want to support your family as well as your personal story doesn't make any investment more or less favorable. You say all this stuff as if there is a correlation between this "opportunity" and your situation ... as if "Well it has to work out, I'm supporting my family!"

That kind of logic will lead you to ruin and makes you pliable to make bad decisions, as we see here.



Ha Ha, awesome, and I'd like to saddle a unicorn on a beach in Cabo.

Right now I'd really like six-pack abs and rock hard muscle but don't want to eat right or exercise.

Can't really argue with your points obviously (except for the "Everything" I said was irrelevant...vast majority maybe but not "everything", c'mon, throw me a bone here) and I do understand (and even agree) with what you are trying to pound into my thick skull here...and obviously that is my biggest concern: making a poor decision based on how I am viewing the circumstances driving me.

With that being said, to be clear, I was explaining my thought process, how/why I approached this (flawed and all) the way I did/am; not trying to say it was wrong, smart, etc

As for unicorns, never a fan myself.

So from your perspective, providing capital (and the inherent risk therein) to another business for them to invest and manage for me) is a poor decision? And tantamount to wanting to have six pack abs without exercising or watching what I'm eating?

Continued thanks for taking the time!!

 

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[biophase]

It’s an e-commerce site worth approximately 75k on the open market (of course the valuation is certainly subjective but that’s based on my personal valuation of the site)

If your site is worth $75k, it should be at least bringing in $30k a year right? That's a 2.5x which is generous for a $30k a year site.

But you've only received back $18k. What is it currently bringing you a month?

 

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[herbie]

It's irrelevant because the business you are buying doesn't care about your situation. Does my ecom store do better when my house goes down in value?

Here is what's going to happen to you. You are going to mortgage the home for $100k, join this business and at the end of 3 years you might get back $50k in cashflow (through the ponzi scheme) and end up with an ecommerce site that is worth $50k. So now you received back your initial $100k, but you've paid out $15k in interest. So you are really down $15k after 3 years.

This is one of those investments that if you go through with this, just be willing to lose all of your $100k. If you are fine with that, then you can certainly proceed. These are decisions you need to make in your head before proceeding with any type of investment.

Hey Biophase,

I am currently looking to possibly go down this road with them so have been curious about ecom's experience with them. Basically, how it is explained (from my understanding) is that the 100K is used to purchase an existing site with existing revenue stream...theoretically the site they purchase should be doing around 30-50K in gross revenue due to the valuation multiple to buy it. They then are supposed to "enhance" the site and business model to grow the revenue (I was not aware of the second site that Ecom mentions...this may be something they used to do but do not anymore, not sure). Within a certain time frame (60-90 days from your investment) they commit/guarantee to pay you a monthly payment equal to 15% of your investment annually (so 1,250 per month) regardless of how much the actual revenue is (unless it's higher). Once the revenue goes above 1,250 per month you split the incremental with them 50/50.

They say that 60% of their sites earn more than the minimum within the first year, 90% of them earn more within the 2nd year, and 100% earn more within 3 years. How much more is much more of an elusive question.

They started with authority sites and have switched over to e-commerce sites recently due to the changing web landscape as they have explained it.


To 100k, I am assuming the breakeven Ecom is referring to is the 18K he made so far and the value of site/asset at 75K if he was to sell it.

I have been looking for something like this forum to discuss my experience with Income Store. I was probably one of the earlier investors...gave them 100k to purchase an "authority" site and then they were to build another "hybrid" site to enhance the one they bought. I loved their model, but went into this with my eyes wide open...knew that it could be "too good to be true, but I did some diligence and decided to give it a try. All of the signs point to a legitimate business, however, buyer beware!!!

The site that they purchased for me is virtually worthless and they keep giving me the run around on how they are going to get me something that will give me the equity that I have lost!

They are moving away from authority and affiliate sites and into ecommerce...which I also like better...but they are WAY late with this site also. I built an ecommerce business about the same time frame and it has done VERY well, however, I do spend a good bit of time on this business.

I spend 0 time on the income store investment. I have accused them of a ponzi scheme, but they claim that the are doing well....won't share financials, however. They do continue to give me updates...however...the updates are basically that they are making no progress.

This has gone on for about four years now...so this is why I would not recommend this investment. I have almost earned back my original investment...and will milk this as long as I can and as long as they don't implode. They built a new building, they are growing, and I don't agree with those who are trashing their technical know how.

I bought this as a long term investment...and as long as they pay my 15%+ I am good to go. I follow their progress and get their updates and propaganda...they do try to be transparent and I can always get a response to any questions or concerns...their responses are just all the same..."we are working on it, but...we ran into a few snags...blah blah blah. It's definitely a red flag and I would NOT invest knowing what I know now.

But at this point, they have not missed a payment and I keep cashing the checks without spending any time. Would a REIT or something similar been better....maybe. Not too many places you can get a 15%+ return for life. Too good to be true? We shall see....but I like my chances. Lot's of naysayers here...but give me some options that will do what this has done and claims it will do in the future with the same or lower risk!!!

 

[herbie]

That's too bad. I wonder if they slowly let the sites deterioriate and pay the monthly 15% fees to everyone who has a site with money from the new people they sign on.

Quite frankly, I have been concerned about this and asked them point blank if they were running a ponzi scheme. They claim that they are not and the the large majority of their sites are meeting their profit targets. I have doubts. Steer clear. I am just milking this for as long as I can to get my money back plus a good return!!!

 

[Mithkol]

Hi,

I came across this thread during my research into IncomeStore. I was intrigued by Ken and his company at a conference and they also really sold it over the phone when I spoke to them.

I will post my research here for anyone else who may be interested. In conclusion I decided against investing with IncomeStore due to the unhappy experience of both Ecom Man and Herbie on this thread.

INCOME STORE'S CREDENTIAL

• Our preliminary research suggests that Income Store is a legit company in the business they claim to be in on their website.

• The company is ranked 1,450 in the 2018 INC 5,000 Rankings and 1076 in the 2019rankings. Inc is a media company with a solid reputation and they track thousands of business globally.

• In Pennsylvania, the company is ranked as the 33rd top private company, according to Inc.

• The company's revenue has grown by 389% in the last three years.

• The company is also highly rated on Glassdoor (4.7/5 rating from 60 reviews), with employees leaving positive reviews about how impressive the company's SEO strategy is.

• The company is part of Today's Growth Consultant, which has been in business since 1992.

• They have over 900 income-generating websites currently and has traffic in excess of 200 million visitors annually.

INCOME STORE'S PROMISE REALIZATION

• While we were able to determine that the company is legit from external sources, we were unable to find a solid third party review about the company that sheds light on if they are able to keep their promise.
• We found several interviews of the CEO, Ken Courtright, where he suggests that the company is able to keep its promise to investors and provides examples of their business model. However, it is unclear if all sites under their management perform optimally or if he only cherry-picked the best.
• A poster in an online forum where the company is being discussed noted that he is "currently only making the minimum ($1,250 a month) as the websites aren’t throwing off enough income to exceed that yet. It took them quite a while to buy a website (they are estimating 3-6 months for new buyers) but they pay you the 1.25% monthly even before they find and buy the actual site."
• There is a thread of discussion about the company in the forum but only the comment above is from someone that has actually invested in the company. However, while it is encouraging to know that they actually do keep their promise, skeptics opine that it is easy to pay $1,250 monthly to investors from their $100,000 deposits.