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I worked in Military Intelligence...

Ask me anything!

Mike TG

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Bottom Line Up Front: I worked in the human intelligence field in the Marine Corps. I have received extensive training on persuasion based on motivations, human interaction, and information extraction from people. If you have questions regarding any of this, I would love to hear them and give you my best take on the situation.

One thing that I love about being an entrepreneur is the idea that you can be successful by adding value to other peoples lives. I think this true in all of life, not just business. Although I have owned a business before and have some experience there, I have a different skill set that I hope can be helpful to treps in the Fastlane community.

I spent five of my ten years in the Marine Corps working in the human intelligence field. Here is a brief summary of my qualifications:

- Certified Interrogator

- Trained and operated in Counterintelligence (protecting information) and Human Intelligence (getting information from people)

- Operated in a dozen countries in South America, Europe and the Middle East

- Cross-cultural communication training

- Established and used human networks to get information

- Instructed Marines in the above subjects

It sounds like a really cool job, and don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it. But there is a lot more paperwork and it is much less sexy than Hollywood would have you believe. :)

What does this have to do with The Fastlane?

When I had my last business, I used my skill set almost every single day. You name it, it came in handy. Employee relations, vendor relations, and of course, SALES. Even over the phone, I was able to use what I had learned to get to the motivations behind the person who was making the decision.

Although I never interrogated anyone in a business setting (that would have been interesting and probably not worked so well haha), the fundamentals of human intelligence work so well in business it should be illegal. As many have said on these forums, people like to do business with people they like. It makes it so much easier to understand a few fundamentals of what makes the person you are interacting with tick.

Some are simple "tricks of the trade" like mirroring someones body language so that they feel more connected to you. Others are much deeper, like selling a big order to a business owner because you uncovered the fact that he relies on that business to put his daughter through college and you show him that you can help him achieve his goals with your product. It's not about the order. It's about what that order does to help him achieve his goals.

To use someones motivations, you first have to find out what they are. 50% of my job in the Marines was to teach young Marines how to ask good questions (yes, there is a good way and a bad way to ask the same exact question) and to listen, truly listen, so that you could get to these underlying motivations and use them.

I won't be able to talk about certain things. The government has a paper with my name on it that says I can't disclose certain things about specific operations and things of that nature. But this thread isn't meant to be a "war stories" thread. I would just like to share some of the thought process behind HOW we got people to tell us things and then used that to get where we needed to get with them.

Hopefully this adds some value to your endeavors. I look forward to your questions.
 
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Griffith

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Thanks for this AMA. I find human behavior endlessly fascinating.

What is your impression of Neuro-Linguistic Programming? Is it accurate given what you know and do?
 
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codo3500

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I'm a real estate agent, and the top trainers I've seen say exactly what you're saying about finding the root motivator and targeting that. They use techniques like "The 5 why's" .etc, but my question is: How long do you think it takes for questioning that way to stop feeling weird. For me, it still feels weird. Sometimes it just happens conversationally, but forcing it is a very manual process - how long do you think it takes for it to 'feel natural'?
 

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What are 3 resources you would consider a MUST in any human intelligence specialist's library?

How did you train to develop those skills, I.e what practice did you do? Methods?

I've ran a Door-to-Door sales company for almost 2 years, and I've learnt reading body language and learning to decipher thought-process is a skill that will change the way you view the world.
 

Daniel A

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This is awesome! I have been looking into this a lot recently. I was even considering and pondering if I should get into intelligence work for a while (Recruiters go on the campus of the university my mom works at).

"Established and used human networks to get information" - Are you able to say if you used digital mediums more than face-to-face mediums when getting information? Or were "human networks" your primary source of information?

Was the book "Social Engineering: The Art of Human Hacking" part of your required reading for your occupation?

Before engaging in communication with your 'target' you have to do a lot of research on the 'target' itself beforehand correct? Are there any methods and/or processes that you have for doing this that you are willing to share? For example: Andrew Warner (a guy that interviews entrepreneurs and is one himself) apparently has a method for getting anyone's email address. Do you know how to do that? If so, can you tell us the method?

Could you give us, specifically, what you found most useful in a business setting that you learned from being in the military and especially military intelligence?

That's all I have for now, but I will most likely ask more questions later ;)

Thank you again.

PS: Your avatar depicts the truth, correct? Haha
 
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Mike TG

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@Cruor Vult, absolutely.

One of the most vital things that people do wrong with talking to another person is talk. It is the old adage "God gave you 1 mouth and 2 ears for a reason." Listening to the people you are interacting with is important for 2 reasons.

1. It immediately builds rapport - Just the simple act of listening while someone else talks, asking follow up questions about what they are saying, makes that person like you more. He thinks more highly of you because you are different. The majority of the population is thinking about what they want to say next while you are talking. Asking a question related to what that person was just saying shows that you are in fact listening and care. The best scenario is to actually care but even if you don't, fake it until you make it.

2. It gives you conversational ammunition - I love this keynote by Michael Ellsberg. It's 26 minutes long so if you don't have time to watch, let me summarize. When he does the onstage demonstration, he asks the lady about her business. About the thing that gets her most excited and what is the biggest problem she faces. He is extracting key elements of her motivations to better connect himself with her. What you learn by listening to someone talk is often the key to their inner motivation, if you are listening for it.

Practical Example - I was once trying to sell a midsize order to a customer. This was about 4-5k worth of home improvement. By listening to tiny hints (we call them conversational gates in the trade), I realized that he and his fiance were having trouble getting upgrades approved by the historical society. It was small things, like the fact that when I threw out options, he kept saying, almost under his breath, "That should work as long as it gets approved." He didn't come out and tell me that the historical society in charge of that old neighborhood had to approve any work that was done to the house. By listening to the subtle hints, I came out and asked him what he meant by "getting approved." Once I had this bit of information (business intelligence if you like) the sale came naturally. At this point, I had an edge on the other 3 companies giving him bids. I assured him that our process and product could align with the standards of the historical society so that he would have nothing to worry about. I even offered to bring out samples of product so that he and the decision makers could approve before he bought. Needless to say, we got the sale. One simple observation combined with one question made me a good chunk of change.

My point in this is that if you are not reading between the lines, you're losing. When you are trying to convince someone of something (vendors for a better rate, affiliate program managers for a better commission, customers for a sale, etc.) you can't be focused only on what you are going to say next. You have to collect the information (through the conversation), analyze it to figure out how to better serve that person (through their motivations), and then sell it back to them (using the "intelligence" you got from the conversation). Information is not intelligence until you analyze it.

Action Item: In the next conversation you have, ask a minimum of FIVE follow-up questions in reference to what that person is saying to you. This might be a significant other, a girl at the bar, a customer, a vendor, etc. It may even be a random person on the street or behind the counter at Walmart. If you are sincere with that person, you will find out more than you thought possible about the person. The more information you get, the more effective you are. This advice is as old as Sun Tzu and The Art of War. I'll do a post on the proper way to ask a question (sounds silly but it absolutely works) after I answer the pending questions.



Motivation is the other key factor that I touched on a little in what I already wrote. Let me expound. I would say that motivations are probably the SINGULAR most important factor when dealing with people. If you look back at a lot of advice on the forums and definitely through TMF book, specifically about filling a need, you will see this come out quite a bit.

1. Motivations are why people do things - Check out this article on the hind brain. This is essentially what you are targeting when you are using someones motivations to persuade them to do something that you want them to do. This part of the brain is used for decision making. And what motivates a decision? Is it that your product is better or cheaper? Maybe. But what does that mean to the person you are talking to?

2. Motivations are potent in a conversation - This is what you have to grab a hold of by using your ears and asking good questions. It may be as simple as more money to the person who is buying your stuff. And it is possible to get the order or the sale you want on that alone. But it is way stronger if you can sell them on what this will do for them, for what is important to them. We used to call this the need behind the need. An example of this is money itself. It is a motivator for many people. But is it money that is the motivator? Or is it what that motivator will buy?

What is more persuasive?

"You know Mr. Customer, Widget X will save you a lot of money."

"I love Widget X as a product because it enables our customers to save so much money. Like yourself, many of our customers are trying to put their daughters through college. This product saves them money so that they can do things just like that."

This is the power of motivations. The second way sells them through their hind brain. It taps into what is actually important to them. Money is only a tool. Subconsciously, everyone is trying to get something with the money they are trying to get. This is the need behind the need.

Practical Example - I once had a human source in another country (can't be more specific). She had information I needed on crime in a certain area. She didn't know I was military intelligence (plain clothes, left the badge at home, etc.). I needed to get this information through regular conversation, appealing to her motivations. At the moment, the most important thing to her was her significant other. We were all "friends" and he came to the place she worked quite often. I used this to talk about recent dangers in the area, commenting on the fact that I hoped he wouldn't get hurt from the crime in the area when he visited. This motivated her to talk about crime in the area. Extensively. I got what I needed.

A business example. I was working with a local advertiser. During our meeting I was constantly trying to assess his motivations. Because I was asking questions about his life and business, I got the sense that his primary motivation in business was to feel important as a businessman. An important member of the local community. I figured out through subtle hints that his wife wasn't super happy with the business he was in and how much time he put toward his endeavors. I knew that I needed to make him feel good about what he did. So I started to talk about how much we appreciated his help in building the business of a couple of veterans through his advertising efforts. I told him about how hard it was to get the word out about our service. What I actually did was create a need that he could fill, and while filling it, feel very important, like he had contributed to a good cause.

End result? He almost doubled the advertising we were receiving for the same price. Now, don't get me wrong. He had the advertising space anyway. It didn't cost him a lot. But it meant the world to us. I'm not saying that a major TV station can double your advertising just because you understand the motivations of the salesperson. What I am saying is that you can get the most out of people by using these methods. Get them to give you more because you have addressed their need, their motivation.

Action Item: When you are asking good questions and listening closely, try to assess the motivation of the person with whom you are talking. Then test it. How? If the Walmart lady starts bitching about how late she has to work tonight because you actually cared and asked her a question about it, try to find out why. Then ask her. If she is dropping hints about her kids, ask to see if you are right about the motivation.

"Wouldn't it be great to have more time to spend with your kids?"

This may sound super awkward but believe me, most people are so wrapped up in their own heads, they just want to hear that someone understands them. It just feels awkward to you. And you can figure out if you are doing it right.



Listening and assessing motivations (the need behind the need) will make you a potent force when persuading people to work with you, buy from you, etc. Think about how fast your business idea would work/grow if you could convince people to buy it. To convince vendors to supply you at the right price. Your landlord to give you the right price on the lease. Very fast is the answer. This is just one facet of business, but an important one. If you could get the most out people, how would your business grow?

Ok, I think that is enough for this one post. Sorry to make these so long. This is much easier to teach in person. I hope I answered your question.
 

Mike TG

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@Zulu, that is not a silly question. :) That is probably the most common question I have gotten in the past.

In my opinion, Spy Game with Robert Redford and Brad Pitt probably comes the closest. It is still off by a long shot (they don't show 3 hours of paperwork for every 1 hour of sexy operations). But the way Redford trains Pitt is pretty accurate.

For example, I used to send my students out to do elicitation exercises. using real people out in town on the weekends. So I would give them a targeted piece of information like "Find out the target's mother's middle name." The point of an exercise like this was two-fold.

1. To get them out of their comfort zone. The crash and burn stories were hilarious. They had to get out and embarrass themselves a few times to get over the jitters. Same thing in business. Want to be good at selling something? Get out of your comfort zone. Give yourself many, many chances to try. Great thing about the earth? It is huge. Their are 6 billion+ people living on it. 90%+ of the people you meet, you will never meet again. So who gives a shit? Try something new and get out of your comfort zone. At least the Marines I trained only got yelled out for not accomplishing their goal. In the "real world", you make no sales and make no money. ;)

2. To give them practice. Practice is needed to sharpen this skill, like most skills. So it didn't really matter what piece of information I told them to get. They had to find a way to work it into the conversation and get the info. I started in my teens doing door-to-door sales and telemarketing. Tough businesses but it taught me persistence and gave me SO MUCH practice. The human intelligence program in the Marine Corps has a failure rate of more than 80%, from application to school graduation. Business has an even worse failure rate. Life is tough. Get out and practice.
 
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IAmTheJeff

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LOL, seriously. I want to call random people and see what (or if) I can learn about them.
No, I don't think you understand. I'm about to go to 711 or something, just to find out what the guy's mom's middle name is. I'm not sure how I'd get it, but dammit I'm motivated!
 

Mike TG

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@Griffith, I agree. Human behavior is endlessly fascinating. I mentioned this in my intro post but even though my job and the military in general is very, very slowlane, I did enjoy it and learned things that I could learn no where else.

So NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming)... They brought in a guy who had a master's degree in psychology to give us this class when I was in the school. In his words?? "I don't like it."

Let me clarify. Throughout the next couple of weeks, he clarified his position on NLP. It made sense to me then and made more sense to me after I operated in different countries. The problem with NLP is that people are so different. Trying to codify whether a look up to the left or down and to the right means the difference between lie and truth is nearly impossible. (BTW, I don't even know if that is right. That is how little standard NLP means to me.)

In theory, it sounds great. Certain areas of the brain are responsible for certain functions and the eyes and other body parts can tell you what part of the brain the person is accessing. The problem? Everyone is different. If you are a strict practitioner of NLP, then you get blind-sided when you meet the inevitable curve ball.

Here is what I advocate instead.

The eyes and body are absolutely the key to what someone is thinking. It is just not the same for everyone. Pick up a book on body language. It will give you an idea of the general ideas. And read about NLP. It will help you know what parts to focus on. But everyone is different. It is an art, backed up by a science. If you are paying attention to the changes in someones body language and eye movements, you will see when something changes from the baseline.

The baseline is something very important when playing this game. A persons baseline tells you what they are like normally. So while you are chit-chatting with someone, or BSing about the dodgers game that weekend, practice picking up what they are normally like in a conversation. Then throw them a curveball. Start talking about something you know interests them and see how the eyes flick up to your eyes and become interested. Microexpressions (google it) in the face are also important. A slight flex in the muscles that make a person smile can betray that they are happy about something you are saying, even if they are trying to hide it.

Treat it more like a poker game. What you are really looking for are tells. What does the person do when they are....

Uncomfortable?
Lying?
Sincere?
Desperate?
Happy?
Satisfied?
Convinced?
Etc...

It takes a little time to learn each person. We dealt with this in interrogations. You have to know when the person is "broken." You have to figure out what interrogation approach is working. It is the same in business. You have to figure out when the person moves from evaluating (or disbelieving) what you are saying to getting close to being sold on what you want or need them to do. That is when you ask for what you want. Do it to soon and they aren't ready. Do it to late and they might be irritated because they were ready to say YES ten minutes ago. I can tell you that something will absolutely change. Their posture may become more relaxed. They may start nodding their head. It is the subconscious clues you are looking for. Something will tell you when it is time to move from convincing to asking. Asking for the sale is probably the most profitable use of this but really anytime you need to convince someone to do anything, this can be used.

"NLP" is just a system trying to figure out when something changes internally. IMO, it is just to strict. It doesn't allow for all the differences people have. Figure out what that person's tell is and you have it made. This takes time and may not even happen on the first meeting. I can tell you that just by being interested in what a person's body language and eyes are telling you, you are light years ahead of most people. Being interested in what these clues tell you is absolutely the first step.

The flip side to becoming good at this is that you are more easily able to conceal your intentions and emotions. If you understand how you show excitement or happiness, you can either fake it or hide it, depending on the situation. This was part of the Counterintelligence side of my job. If a human source started talking about something that I really needed information on, I couldn't become super excited. It would show my cards. The next time a door-to-door salesman come to your door, step out of your house immediately after he finishes his immediate pitch and tell him that this is EXACTLY what you have been looking for. His face will light up (because he faces rejection all day long) and you will see what I am talking about. Most people can't control their emotions. If you can, you have an edge.
 
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Daniel A

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No, I don't think you understand. I'm about to go to 711 or something, just to find out what the guy's mom's middle name is. I'm not sure how I'd get it, but dammit I'm motivated!

Hold on, maybe @Mike TG is willing to tell us how you can do it. If he does and you do it, let us know what the "middle name" was (if there is one) :joyful:

I personally want to get better with phone calls so I want to practice with that, but in person, I'll do that too.
 

Mike TG

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@codo3500, I've never been in the real estate biz (well, buying a house but that doesn't count lol) but this stuff is really the same no matter the industry IMO. People are people.

To answer your question, it depends on the person. But there are "shortcuts", if you like, that can get you comfortable with the process of asking good and relevant questions that will get you to the base motivators. I really believe that anyone that wants to do this can. It is a matter of effort and commitment, as with most things in life. The only Marines that I failed to get through the training were the ones who just stopped trying. I know this is cliche all day long but it really is true.

All of the below only works with steady practice. I find that a significant other is great to practice with. Don't even tell them what you are doing. Just ask a ton of questions about their day. It will score you points (always nice) and will give you good practice at asking questions the right way and letting the person answer.

When it comes to business, just remember that mastering this can lead to more sales, connections, funding, etc. And also notice when you do it and when it works. It will give you motivation to continue. My fresh students (the good ones) always came back after a weekend and were like "Wow! This actually works!" to which I would reply "No shit...". Lol

Ok now for specifics. First, I think we have to break down why it is uncomfortable.

1. People (and I think Americans and other people from industrialized countries especially) are horrible at letting there be an awkward silence or "pregnant pause" in the conversation. They feel like they have to fill the space with something. That something is usually their own blathering. Most people (and I am not saying this to be funny) don't think when they speak. It is just a natural reflex. So actually asking something that matters and shutting the f*** up until the person answers is also awkward.

2. Normal human conversation is chock full of loaded questions, leading questions, compound questions, etc. So asking a direct, specific question violates a social norm and makes people feel awkward.

3. People run out of things to ask, so they talk instead.

Here is what we can do about it.

1. Practice getting comfortable with a pause in the conversation. Sometimes the person is just trying to think because you just wrecked their brain housing group with an awesome question that is taking them a minute to actually think about. The standard sales adage applies here; He who speaks first, loses. There are times when you just have to let the space be there. Trust me, the other person is feeling the conversational pressure just as much, if not more, than you are. It is like an unspoken game of chicken. I had a sale one time where literally no words were said, after I asked a very poignant question, for like 30 seconds. 30 seconds is a freaking lifetime in a conversation. But I wasn't going to lose. It may be awkward the first few times, but I think you will see that as you do this more, you will appreciate the time. While the person you are talking to is busy thinking, you can be assessing their body language and figuring out what is going on inside. Valuable time.

2. Ask a good question. These are what we called the basic interrogatives:

- Who?
- What?
- When?
- Where?
- Why?
- How?
- What else?
- What other?

So the first 6 are pretty basic. The other 2 are great at making sure you didn't miss anything. Here is the more important part. When you ask a question, ask a specific question.

Bad questions:

Do you want to go to Burger King or Taco Bell? (compound question)

So you want to see the new Thor movie, right? (leading question)

What else do you want to know about my product? (vague question)

Good questions:

Where do you want to eat? (Singular)

What movie do you want to see? (Open ended)

What other questions can I answer for you about our order fulfillment process? (Specific)

Asking a question the right way gets your target's (or customer, vendor, significant other, etc.) brain to focus on one thing at a time and to give an honest answer.

If you think the brain can do multiple things, I have an experiment for you. Get 2 people, pens, paper, paperclips and pennies. The goal is to stack 5 pennies, clip 5 paperclips together and draw 5 stars on the paper. Have one person do each task one at a time until 5 of each are done. Have the other person "batch" the task. Draw 5 stars, then stack 5 pennies, then clip 5 paperclips together. The one focused on doing the tasks one at a time will always win. It works the same way when trying to extract information from someone (which is what a question is). Give them 1 thing at a time to focus on. One question. It will reduce the pressure they feel and make communication much more effective.

3. Running out of things to ask leads to dumb things being said before you have enough information. It also feels awkward to ask silly questions because we have nothing better to ask or say. Here is a game I used to play with my students. It is very simple. You can play with other people (a little more fun) or with yourself.

Get any object and ask questions about it. The simpler the object, the harder the exercise. I used to grab the pen out of my pocket and make my students ask questions about it. It sounds silly but you can ask hundreds of questions about a pen. Most people stop at the following.

What type of pen is it? What color is the ink? Do you like your pen?

Deeper questions - Where did you buy the pen? How much did you pay for it? Who manufacturers the pen? What is the pen made of? Is the comfortable to use? How many pens come in a standard pack?

The whole point of this exercise is that there is an unlimited number of questions to ask about anything. Running out of good questions is awkward and quite silly. Most people only go 1 level down. That is not where the motivations are. They are deeper.


Getting comfortable with this process just takes time. It is natural for me now. I still use bad questions sometimes, when I am not paying a lot of attention to the conversation. But when I need to, I can flip the switch and get into "debrief mode". That is when my questions become laser focused. I extract what I need from that person. It is a conscious effort that becomes more comfortable to switch to over time.

My best analogy would be swinging a hammer. The first time you do it, its awkward. It feels weird and you don't quite feel like you are hitting the nail correctly. After time and practice, you can swing harder and more accurately. Same with a question. It is a tool to extract the information you need from your target to get what you need done, to discover their inner motivation and use it.
 
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Mike TG

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I've ran a Door-to-Door sales company for almost 2 years, and I've learnt reading body language and learning to decipher thought-process is a skill that will change the way you view the world.

@Silverhawk851, I couldn't have said it better myself. This is a skill that does change the way you view the world. It's like peeking behind the curtain and seeing the wizard. And I definitely have respect for you running door-to-door sales. Very tough business. I would credit my time doing that with sparking a passion for deciphering human interaction. I wanted to know why people said yes and why people said no.

To answer your questions...

Here are the 3 resources that I recommend. I made every one of my guys have these as well.

1. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie - This one is a classic and kind of a no-brainer. This lays a good foundation for human interaction.

2. A body language book - I leave this open ended because there are so many out there, geared toward different situations. Body language in general, body language for executives, etc, etc. It really depends on how deep you want to go. What Every Body is Saying by Joe Navarro is a good one. Even Body Language for Dummies will give you a basic primer. A lot of these books say a lot of the same thing. I think it is more important to get in the right mindset for paying attention to little cues. Many books on this topic will do this for you.

3. The Interrogator by Raymond Toliver - This is the story of Hanns Scharff. He was the most effective Nazi interrogator. Period. He later moved to the US and actually helped shape a lot of US interrogation policy and practice.

A quick aside on the 3rd recommendation... The art of interrogation has a really bad rap. It is usually associated with "bad cop, good cop" or some cheesy hollywood version where people are getting tortured and shot in the knee cap. Cool to see on a movie, garbage in real life.

Here is a little secret... Interrogation is nothing more than a conversation. The difference between this conversation and one you have on a daily basis? The interrogator is purposely using his words to manipulate the emotional state of the detainee in order to apply the right amount of pressure to cause him or her to "break." That's it. We affectionately called it "Verbal Judo".

You can find WHAT the interrogation approaches are by googling them. The HOW behind interrogation approaches is a protected secret in the intelligence community.

But what does all of this have to do with business?

If you want a customer to get excited about a product, you are trying to manipulate their emotional state. If you are trying to get a vendor excited about doing business with you, you are trying to manipulate his emotional state. Some situations are easier than others. It is about trying to get the most out of the person with whom you are interacting. Hanns Scharff was a great interrogator because he spent time building rapport, befriending the prisoners, and then using the things he learned to break down their barriers so that they would talk. Sound familiar?

It happens a lot quicker on a door step but the fundamentals still apply. If you stand really close to someones door, it is going to freak them out when they answer. Good luck getting the sale from someone who is already creeped out by you. It applies even more when they are interested and your salespeople are trying to close. If you teach your salespeople how to pull a Hanns Scharff, to be likeable and to understand how to break down someones barriers on an emotional level, sales will go up.


My personal training was almost 5 months of school in an immersive training environment. 7 days a week and long days at that. 48 hours at a time of no sleep while running back-to-back interrogations. Things like that. After graduating and being sent to learn French, it was time spent in the field.

As far as methods that anyone can use to practice, a lot of the failures I saw out of the school had to do with really basic stuff. People that couldn't hold a conversation. People that ran out of questions to ask. People that did not dig deep enough. So the things I do and made my guys do to keep ourselves sharp was to practice these fundamentals. Everywhere. All the time. I think a lot of salespeople just practice when they are in front of the customer. Which sucks for the business owner because good leads get burnt by training a sales guy. Here are a few more:

1. The question game - I outlined this for @codo3500. The reason questions are such a great weapon to have in the arsenal is that it exploits a fundamental truth about humans. We love to talk. Just look at how long my posts are to see this truth in action. ;) But it is very true. Training salespeople to see a hundred different questions in every situations means they will never be at a loss for words. Ask a good question and the conversation is off and running again. Ask a really good question at the right time and you will find out what problem is that you have to solve to get a yes. Questions are the foundation for human intelligence and in my opinion, for human interaction in general.

2. Steering a conversation - We all know the people that can steer a conversation simply because they don't let anyone else talk. That is not what I mean. That will burn rapport with your target. Artfully directing the conversation is vital. Always be closing is a great thing to say, but when you really break it down, it means steering the conversation closer to the close, ensuring the situation is set up for a yes. And this applies to anyone, not just a customer you are trying to sell to. This is something that can be practiced everyday and everywhere.

When I had my guys practice getting a piece of information from someone (say the target's mother's maiden name), they weren't allowed to directly ask for the name. They had to get it indirectly through the conversation. The target had to think it came up naturally (think the movie Inception, but less Leo and no dreams). They were practicing multiple things at once. How to introduce themselves and gain interest (we call it bumping the target), how to make small talk to build rapport, how to steer the conversation closer to what they actually want to talk about (the targeted information), and most importantly how to ask all the right questions to get to the prize.

3. Getting people to laugh - A well placed one-liner is probably one of the best ways to build rapport. Laughter is universal. Try to make the clerk behind the counter chuckle as you check-out. Try to make the bartender laugh (this can be a little harder). The more you practice, the more naturally it comes when you need it.

Finally, the thing that makes this all work is for a person to realize that you can't be one thing to all people. Reading someone on the fly and tailoring the conversation to who they are is where the magic is. When I first started to learn this, I treated it like a PPC campaign. Split test like crazy. I would crash and burn but learn something every time. If the conversation dropped off, I would obsess about it later, wondering why it happened and what I could have done better.

We called my job a personality based one. We definitely tried to recruit the right people first. Motivated, natural personality, etc. But the majority of the gains came through training. This skill can absolutely be practiced and made better, just like anything else.
 

Mike TG

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@DanielTArgueta The intelligence community is always looking for smart guys and gals. It is not fastlane (unless you own a private intelligence company) but it can be exciting and is very interesting, especially when you first get into it.

As far as digital mediums, yes we used them but no they are not what we usually target per se. I can tell you a quick story to highlight how I've used digital mediums that won't reveal anything sensitive.

I needed to get a guy to back off from a certain person at one point. By exploiting his social media page, I found out his likes, dislikes, family members, etc. I called him up, posing as someone from a dealership saying he was in the final running for winning a new (insert favorite make of vehicle) and that he had been submitted for the contest by (insert family member). Right away, my story is believable. He is excited because he let emotion go to his head. So I use this to start extracting a lot of personal and sensitive information, saying I had a package to send him in regards to the prize. After I had enough information, I turn the tables and tell him I am from such and such agency (not a real agency) and that he has to back off or charges will be brought against him for harassment which will affect his future career endeavors (a very important motivation, which I also found on his social media). He naturally gets extremely frightened and I back him off slowly, telling him that I think he is a good person in a bad situation (you have to give them a way out) and that I would shred the file if he did what I needed him to do. No more interference.

I tell you this to show you how powerful research can be, the human hacking side of the digital space. I am not advocating anyone do what I did. I lied to this person, extensively, because that was my job at the time. The lesson to be learned is that research can be insanely helpful. When it boils down, its just more information to help you target the conversation you are going to have. Sometimes you have to get it as you go.

I have not read that specific book but it looks interesting. I just added it to my "Books to Read" list. Thanks for bringing it up.

As far as methods for extracting specific pieces of information, it is more of a process called elicitation. For a specific thing like a phone number or email, it depends on what works for you.

I used to have a nearly fail proof way to get a phone number (I say used to because I am married now). As long as the conversation was going well, I would tell the girl that she was probably (making sure she knew there was room to improve) the coolest person (not girl, person, to take some of the pressure off and keep a little mystery) I had met that night and that we should hang out at some point in the future. Then I would step in and put my phone into her bubble (personal space) and tell her to put her number into my phone so I could text her my number. My phone was already pulled up to the dialer so there was no barrier. She would instinctively take the phone because of its proximity and then put it in. This worked quite often. Sleezy? Yea a little. But it worked.

My point in all of this is that you have to find a method that works for you, that you are comfortable with. It can be one line or two lines that you have practiced so they sound natural. I used to get emails and phone numbers from people or potential customers all the time using a similar method. The work of getting the number or email doesn't happen when you ask for the information, but in all the conversation before that point. If they are comfortable with you and you show them the reason you need that information and why it will be good for them, they will give it to you. Someone I met randomly who found out what kind of business I owned would start talking about a home improvement they wanted to do because I gently steered the conversation that way.

How does that translate into a lead?

Easy. I show them that I know what I am talking about (establish credibility) then ask them for a contact because I want to send them some pictures of some things I think would look great based on their vision of the home improvement they were talking about. They walk away happy they met me because I can help them solve a problem.

I don't want you to think I batted a thousand by any means. This kind of stuff is a numbers game. Even human intelligence is a numbers game. You may meet a hundred people who are not right for what you need or don't want anything to do with you. Then you meet the one who is. And you are off and running from there.

For your last question (and not to give you a shitty answer) but everything I am spilling on this thread is what was most valuable about my training. I don't mind sharing it at all because to be honest, I've seen the failure rate first hand. Not a lot of people will take it and use it to its full potential. Plus I feel like MJ and the whole TMF community has given a ton to me. Time to pay it forward. :)
 

Mike TG

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@IAmTheJeff Love the motivation man! Let me know what you get when you try it. Like I said, crash and burn stories are great (if that happens) and success is even better. Let's get those mother's middle names! haha

@DanielTArgueta Let me know how it went for you guys. I could write another post specifically on conversational gates, steering the conversation, extracting specific pieces of info through elicitation, etc. if that is something that would interest you guys.
 
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IAmTheJeff

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Well, this thread seriously has an incredible amount of information, and I'm seriously getting middle names today, indirectly! Some of this stuff should be illegal!!! Haha

Someone give this man a raise! I can only send you Rep$ though :)
 

Cruor Vult

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Right on track to become one of the most valuable threads on the forum. Thanks again.
 

randomnumber314

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I've ran into a few of your kind while overseas, I always got the sense they were steering our discussions where they wanted them to go. (that's a compliment, I just stink at wording) Are you currently in home improvement?
 
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PureA

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This is something that really interests me, each post has been of extremely high value and I thank you for that.
Could you recommend any literature (other than what you already mentioned) to expand my knowledge of this subject?

Thanks
-PureA
 
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MJ DeMarco

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Thanks for the AMA! Definitely an interesting topic. Rep transferred.
 

throttleforward

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I used to send my students out to do elicitation exercises. using real people out in town on the weekends. So I would give them a targeted piece of information like "Find out the target's mother's middle name."

I smell a business opportunity here. I bet there are plenty of people who would pay you to run them through a "sales improvement"/"public speaking"/etc. course designed around accomplishing and then reporting back on real world challenges you lay out.

I can see the headline now..."military intelligence agent teaches you the 4 secrets to making girls want YOU!" :)
 
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Mike TG

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@randomnumber314 Yea they probably were. It becomes second nature after a while, and has to be turned off to maintain good and honest relationships with those you care about.

I was in a brick and mortar service business. I love that other veterans are on here. Want to fix the veteran unemployment rate? Give them all a copy of TMF as they exit the military! haha
 

Silverhawk851

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Great points @Mike TG. I've read all of those resources, and would give them as required reading to all my sales guys.

Another point I would stress upon is that FACTS TELL, EMOTIONS SELL.

Alot of people get too caught up in the reading, and mechanics of the sale, that they forget to focus on the 'feelings' of the sale or anything.
Remember, Feelings are Contageous. Most people do not have a strong will, and their emotional state changes with their surroundings.

If you come up with a genuine emotional state of confidence, happiness and spontaneity, the other person will feel it and also embrace that.
But if you roll up with a low energy, but try to 'perfect' your sales pitch, etc. You'll strike out and be wondering what happened.

To generate evoke good feelings in others, you must not only have a good emotional state yourself, but also create a Rapport with them. To create a rapport, you must understand, that the person you are speaking to, lives in a COMPLETELY different world that you.

They do not see things the same way. "We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are" - Unknown

You must understand their point of view, life from their "world", what values they have, what excites them, bothers them, affects their decision making. To understand and uncover these, you must ask the Right Questions. "Why does that mean so much to you?' "How do you figure?" "How did you decide on that?" "What motivated you to do that?" "What was it that influenced your decision?"

The key is to maintain your own emotional state, but suspend any judgement of their world, just be open and accept it for what it is, and use it to help navigate them.

Takes some time to develop that emotional strength, being unaffected by any circumstance.

I teach my guys to develop a strong emotional barrier, let nothing external, or someone else's state affect yours, and you will be able to lead. Emotional fortitude is a defining quality of leaders. People need to rely on leaders who are assured and emotionally stable.
 
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randomnumber314

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@randomnumber314 Yea they probably were. It becomes second nature after a while, and has to be turned off to maintain good and honest relationships with those you care about.

I was in a brick and mortar service business. I love that other veterans are on here. Want to fix the veteran unemployment rate? Give them all a copy of TMF as they exit the military! haha

You just gave me a great idea for finding good employees! I've been scratching my head trying to figure out a great way to find quality employees, craigslist was not working.
 

Mike TG

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Remember, Feelings are Contageous.

Exactly. Emotion trumps logic, logic trumps emotion. Emotion is really the key to a lot of human interaction. Not to say intelligence agent's or entrepreneurs have to be running around crying on shoulders. But a positive energy communicated through words will tear down walls.

you must understand, that the person you are speaking to, lives in a COMPLETELY different world that you.

Spot on. THIS is the single hardest thing to get people to understand. Empathy sounds so touchy-feely. When in reality, it is just the ability to see that an emotion is happening to another person. Most people start feeling the original emotion when this happens (because they are contagious). The trained person recognizes it and makes a conscious decision on what to do in response. Huge difference.
 

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