How is it like to be a computer scientist in the slowlane?

[RealDreams]

I was wondering, how is it like to be a computer scientist in the slowlane?

How do you get treated by your boss? Do you have enough free time (and cognitive energy) to build your fastlane project?

One of the thing keeping me in my business/economics major (instead of switching to CS) is the thought of being pressurized by someone higher in the workplace hierarchy (e.g. managers). I believe CS is a great road for the fastlane (if not the best), but how is the slowlane like? (Not that with a degree in economics I will not be given orders. I guess quite the opposite, especially in the beginning. But I've heard computer scientists are low in the organization chart).

What are the pros and cons for you?

 

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[OverByte]

I graduated computer science and worked in tech for 11 years, primarily with 2 large companies. I am currently working for myself, on my fastlane with a profitable business, I took the leap in July and I was able to because I saved 5+ years of expenses and some seed money by working at a tech job. I was in an engineering management position when I left but I started 11 years ago as a Jr. Dev writing Java/C++.

I was always treated very well by my bosses and they opened up a lot of opportunity for me. If you have people / leadership skills in addition to your technical skills you can excel well in the field since there are a lot of smart programmers but there will be a lot that aren't ambitious, happy with the salary and just playing video games, which is fine and offers you an open door.

Pros:
* Very good pay, I am in Canada and was still making very good money, I had to seek out opportunities to get raises, etc but most engineers with > 2 years exp will make 6 figure incomes. In tech hotspots in the states you can do very well. This is important since savings will be a pre-req to launching your fastlane. You'll likely make significantly higher income from a CS than a business degree (obviously exceptions if you a harvard MBA and are CEO but 99% of the time a CS grad will make more money) Engineers make more than product managers on average.
* You'll get a lot of offers to interview and it's not difficult to get a job if you need to. I constantly get linkedin offers to interview for large tech companies, most of these want/wanted relocation but some will pay 300k+ full comp. This is good for risk management if you take the leap.
* Enjoyable problem solving work, I had a lot of autonomy (though less on the last project I was on so it is always context dependent)
* You'll work with very smart people
* You'll develop skills to create your own software products, even if you are in e-com having the ability to customize your websites will save you time / money.
* You'll learn automation / systemization of processes which is important for scaling / exiting a business
* The jobs I had had flexible hours and you can definitely do well without putting in overtime and instead focus on your business
* You'll learn how to produce a software product, how it's marketed, etc.
* You'll have skills that make you valuable as a freelancer if you need extra cash while doing your own thing, but keep in mind freelancing is still trading time for money.

Cons:
* Most tech companies make you sign a contract which will indicate they will own your IP for any software you write on your own time. This is a big reason why I left. I wouldn't let this throw you off though, just keep quiet about it and if things start to take off then you'll have to either disclose or quit. Don't let fear stop you from trying, most of your ideas will fail anyway.
* You can become very comfortable at a job like this and complacent, you'll overcome this if you want it bad enough. You will never make FU money as a developer working for someone else but you could make 500k/yr
* You will still have to march to the beat of someone else's drum, same as any other career where you don't won the business
* staring at a computer all day writing code makes it hard to come home and write more code for your own venture, this actually becomes a bit better as you move into leadership positions since you aren't writing code at work anymore.
* it's still a job, you're raped by the government in taxes

Regardless of your degree when you start out you are going to be low on the org chart. It doesn't matter which road you take there. If you have leadership skills and ambition you can move through the ranks regardless as well. Technical leaders are rarer and very valuable in tech companies. Technical managers / VPs earn very high wages and bonuses.

Summary:
CS/programming is a good way to launch into a Fastlane, you'll be at the bottom rung when you first start working regardless of your degree choice, be ambitious and be a leader and you'll get opportunities + higher pay, ironically though the higher up the ladder you move the more shit you will encounter. Save your money, don't be stupid with it and you can use it to pursue something great that you have control over, that is if you don't become complacent with the comfort of a pretty easy job where you'll make multiple six figures. Greatness is a choice. It was tough for me to leave my job and would look foolish to most people, but they don't understand the value of freedom and living without fear or regret.

 

[RealDreams]

I graduated computer science and worked in tech for 11 years, primarily with 2 large companies. I am currently working for myself, on my fastlane with a profitable business, I took the leap in July and I was able to because I saved 5+ years of expenses and some seed money by working at a tech job. I was in an engineering management position when I left but I started 11 years ago as a Jr. Dev writing Java/C++.

I was always treated very well by my bosses and they opened up a lot of opportunity for me. If you have people / leadership skills in addition to your technical skills you can excel well in the field since there are a lot of smart programmers but there will be a lot that aren't ambitious, happy with the salary and just playing video games, which is fine and offers you an open door.

Pros:
* Very good pay, I am in Canada and was still making very good money, I had to seek out opportunities to get raises, etc but most engineers with > 2 years exp will make 6 figure incomes. In tech hotspots in the states you can do very well. This is important since savings will be a pre-req to launching your fastlane. You'll likely make significantly higher income from a CS than a business degree (obviously exceptions if you a harvard MBA and are CEO but 99% of the time a CS grad will make more money) Engineers make more than product managers on average.
* You'll get a lot of offers to interview and it's not difficult to get a job if you need to. I constantly get linkedin offers to interview for large tech companies, most of these want/wanted relocation but some will pay 300k+ full comp. This is good for risk management if you take the leap.
* Enjoyable problem solving work, I had a lot of autonomy (though less on the last project I was on so it is always context dependent)
* You'll work with very smart people
* You'll develop skills to create your own software products, even if you are in e-com having the ability to customize your websites will save you time / money.
* You'll learn automation / systemization of processes which is important for scaling / exiting a business
* The jobs I had had flexible hours and you can definitely do well without putting in overtime and instead focus on your business
* You'll learn how to produce a software product, how it's marketed, etc.
* You'll have skills that make you valuable as a freelancer if you need extra cash while doing your own thing, but keep in mind freelancing is still trading time for money.

Cons:
* Most tech companies make you sign a contract which will indicate they will own your IP for any software you write on your own time. This is a big reason why I left. I wouldn't let this throw you off though, just keep quiet about it and if things start to take off then you'll have to either disclose or quit. Don't let fear stop you from trying, most of your ideas will fail anyway.
* You can become very comfortable at a job like this and complacent, you'll overcome this if you want it bad enough. You will never make FU money as a developer working for someone else but you could make 500k/yr
* You will still have to march to the beat of someone else's drum, same as any other career where you don't won the business
* staring at a computer all day writing code makes it hard to come home and write more code for your own venture, this actually becomes a bit better as you move into leadership positions since you aren't writing code at work anymore.
* it's still a job, you're raped by the government in taxes

Regardless of your degree when you start out you are going to be low on the org chart. It doesn't matter which road you take there. If you have leadership skills and ambition you can move through the ranks regardless as well. Technical leaders are rarer and very valuable in tech companies. Technical managers / VPs earn very high wages and bonuses.

Summary:
CS/programming is a good way to launch into a Fastlane, you'll be at the bottom rung when you first start working regardless of your degree choice, be ambitious and be a leader and you'll get opportunities + higher pay, ironically though the higher up the ladder you move the more shit you will encounter. Save your money, don't be stupid with it and you can use it to pursue something great that you have control over, that is if you don't become complacent with the comfort of a pretty easy job where you'll make multiple six figures. Greatness is a choice. It was tough for me to leave my job and would look foolish to most people, but they don't understand the value of freedom and living without fear or regret.

Thanks a lot. This clarified a lot of things for me.
The reason why I like CS is because even if you work for someone, you end up learning a lot of stuff and improving your skill-set.

My future jobs if I keep going on my business degree will probably revolve around accounting/financial analysis and maybe HR management after 5 years of menial work lol and I find this scary cause the upside potential is so limited.

Like accounting is something you learn and that's it. Same thing with financial analysis. You can't put in use your creativity on these, while in CS you can do whatever you like and the limit is your mind lol this is something I've been thinking about for so long now.

 

[OverByte]

Change is always scary, but important to consider the opportunity cost of staying the present course. I don't know the right answer for you based on your circumstances (ie how long a switch would set you back), but if I was in going to school and choosing a degree right now I would definitely choose computer science. That's if you want a degree, arguments can be made against this as well. But I feel a CS degree is valuable.

 

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[WestCoastMax]

Cons:
* Most tech companies make you sign a contract which will indicate they will own your IP for any software you write on your own time. This is a big reason why I left.

Summary:
CS/programming is a good way to launch into a Fastlane, you'll be at the bottom rung when you first start working regardless of your degree choice, be ambitious and be a leader and you'll get opportunities + higher pay, ironically though the higher up the ladder you move the more shit you will encounter. Save your money, don't be stupid with it and you can use it to pursue something great that you have control over, that is if you don't become complacent with the comfort of a pretty easy job where you'll make multiple six figures. Greatness is a choice. It was tough for me to leave my job and would look foolish to most people, but they don't understand the value of freedom and living without fear or regret.

So how do you get around this condition?

 

[RealDreams]

Change is always scary, but important to consider the opportunity cost of staying the present course. I don't know the right answer for you based on your circumstances (ie how long a switch would set you back), but if I was in going to school and choosing a degree right now I would definitely choose computer science. That's if you want a degree, arguments can be made against this as well. But I feel a CS degree is valuable.

It would set me back by one year. But the long-term return value in my honest opinion would probably be greater. One question I keep repeating myself is "How will the world be in 20-30 years?" and I cannot but think of a world full of technology. Like it would be naïve not to believe technology is taking over the entire world and this is just the beginning.

I probably wrote 5 post on this forum mentioning I want to study computer science + to that I've always been passioned about it since when I was a kid so I think the desire is there and this is no shiny objects syndrome.

The only problem is that I also like business and everything that has to do with it. And clearly, you don't need to go to university to understand how business works, but in Italy it's not the same thing as the USA where you can start a company with 200 bucks, so university is all kids my age have here lol

So I'll give the weighted average matrix a shot tomorrow and see what I get out of it. Anyways, these are the kind of decisions you can't quantify and I'm struggling making a decision cause this is really a weird place to be in.

 

[Kevin88660]

It would set me back by one year. But the long-term return value in my honest opinion would probably be greater. One question I keep repeating myself is "How will the world be in 20-30 years?" and I cannot but think of a world full of technology. Like it would be naïve not to believe technology is taking over the entire world and this is just the beginning.

I probably wrote 5 post on this forum mentioning I want to study computer science + to that I've always been passioned about it since when I was a kid so I think the desire is there and this is no shiny objects syndrome.

The only problem is that I also like business and everything that has to do with it. And clearly, you don't need to go to university to understand how business works, but in Italy it's not the same thing as the USA where you can start a company with 200 bucks, so university is all kids my age have here lol

So I'll give the weighted average matrix a shot tomorrow and see what I get out of it. Anyways, these are the kind of decisions you can't quantify and I'm struggling making a decision cause this is really a weird place to be in.

Be careful of projecting the past history into the future.

I remember 15 years back when I was in high school, in a cohort of 1000 kids, 500 were doing biology. 5 did computing. There was a lot of excitement that Singapore was going to be the next biomedical hub And how groundbreaking research will shape human history.

Those people who are really reaping the benefits of of having cs qualification are the minority kids who loved this, not those who see the future. Because there is at least a significant lag time between skill accumulation and reaping the benefits of your skills-if you are looking at career advancement, doing a cs degree and working a couple of years to a mid management.

With work from home being the new norm, there is nothing stopping the companies from outsourcing these high paid jobs to hungry and ambitious engineers in China and India. This is something that the Tech owners always wanted to do but couldn’t do.

 

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[RealDreams]

Be careful of projecting the past history into the future.

I remember 15 years back when I was in high school, in a cohort of 1000 kids, 500 were doing biology. 5 did computing. There was a lot of excitement that Singapore was going to be the next biomedical hub And how groundbreaking research will shape human history.

Those people who are really reaping the benefits of of having cs qualification are the minority kids who loved this, not those who see the future. Because there is at least a significant lag time between skill accumulation and reaping the benefits of your skills-if you are looking at career advancement, doing a cs degree and working a couple of years to a mid management.

With work from home being the new norm, there is nothing stopping the companies from outsourcing these high paid jobs to hungry and ambitious engineers in China and India. This is something that the Tech owners always wanted to do but couldn’t do.

Well, I don't like it just because of the future "trends".
I've been coding on my own for half a year now and I cannot but say I enjoy it. The problem is that I'd like to have a more foundational knowledge in CS and I'm struggling to both study for my business degree and computer science on my own.

I'm thinking single-minded focus is the best way to go instead of dissipating my energy and time on multiple things, getting mediocre results at both.

I agree about the increase in offer for these programming jobs by third world country programmers. But from how I see it, if you have a degree in CS you'll always get a job no matter how many Indian kids there are on Upwork lol.

I've seen some of these Upwork programmers' work and it's pitiful in all honesty. Now, I never outsourced anything so I can't tell but that was what I've seen by looking at their "portfolios" on Upwork.

My long-term goal is the fastlane, the ability to have a programmer's mind and being able to see problems and create solutions through the aid of computer science. You can outsource all you want, but I know very few (if any) tech companies started by non-tech founders.

I believe there are more pros than cons when it comes to computer science. And I think that if you can match that skill with business knowledge/selling/psychology/whatever you can create a unique business which most of your competitors will never be able to attain because they outsourced most of the stuff to other people who can't see the system at play, with all the interrelations.

A business is nothing more than a system where the founders connected each element to the other and created a unique hybrid.

This is why most tech companies started by non-tech founders fail. If you can't manage your core-business yourself, you don't have control over the main thing bringing in cash.

This is just my opinion of course.

Edit: looking at my behavior and thought patterns, I'm definitely experiencing sunk cost fallacy. Since I'm at the 2nd year of my business degree a part of me feels like it would be stupid to drop out and start from scratch and study computer science.

 

[Flint]

I graduated computer science and worked in tech for 11 years, primarily with 2 large companies. I am currently working for myself, on my fastlane with a profitable business, I took the leap in July and I was able to because I saved 5+ years of expenses and some seed money by working at a tech job. I was in an engineering management position when I left but I started 11 years ago as a Jr. Dev writing Java/C++.

I was always treated very well by my bosses and they opened up a lot of opportunity for me. If you have people / leadership skills in addition to your technical skills you can excel well in the field since there are a lot of smart programmers but there will be a lot that aren't ambitious, happy with the salary and just playing video games, which is fine and offers you an open door.

Pros:
* Very good pay, I am in Canada and was still making very good money, I had to seek out opportunities to get raises, etc but most engineers with > 2 years exp will make 6 figure incomes. In tech hotspots in the states you can do very well. This is important since savings will be a pre-req to launching your fastlane. You'll likely make significantly higher income from a CS than a business degree (obviously exceptions if you a harvard MBA and are CEO but 99% of the time a CS grad will make more money) Engineers make more than product managers on average.
* You'll get a lot of offers to interview and it's not difficult to get a job if you need to. I constantly get linkedin offers to interview for large tech companies, most of these want/wanted relocation but some will pay 300k+ full comp. This is good for risk management if you take the leap.
* Enjoyable problem solving work, I had a lot of autonomy (though less on the last project I was on so it is always context dependent)
* You'll work with very smart people
* You'll develop skills to create your own software products, even if you are in e-com having the ability to customize your websites will save you time / money.
* You'll learn automation / systemization of processes which is important for scaling / exiting a business
* The jobs I had had flexible hours and you can definitely do well without putting in overtime and instead focus on your business
* You'll learn how to produce a software product, how it's marketed, etc.
* You'll have skills that make you valuable as a freelancer if you need extra cash while doing your own thing, but keep in mind freelancing is still trading time for money.

Cons:
* Most tech companies make you sign a contract which will indicate they will own your IP for any software you write on your own time. This is a big reason why I left. I wouldn't let this throw you off though, just keep quiet about it and if things start to take off then you'll have to either disclose or quit. Don't let fear stop you from trying, most of your ideas will fail anyway.
* You can become very comfortable at a job like this and complacent, you'll overcome this if you want it bad enough. You will never make FU money as a developer working for someone else but you could make 500k/yr
* You will still have to march to the beat of someone else's drum, same as any other career where you don't won the business
* staring at a computer all day writing code makes it hard to come home and write more code for your own venture, this actually becomes a bit better as you move into leadership positions since you aren't writing code at work anymore.
* it's still a job, you're raped by the government in taxes

Regardless of your degree when you start out you are going to be low on the org chart. It doesn't matter which road you take there. If you have leadership skills and ambition you can move through the ranks regardless as well. Technical leaders are rarer and very valuable in tech companies. Technical managers / VPs earn very high wages and bonuses.

Summary:
CS/programming is a good way to launch into a Fastlane, you'll be at the bottom rung when you first start working regardless of your degree choice, be ambitious and be a leader and you'll get opportunities + higher pay, ironically though the higher up the ladder you move the more shit you will encounter. Save your money, don't be stupid with it and you can use it to pursue something great that you have control over, that is if you don't become complacent with the comfort of a pretty easy job where you'll make multiple six figures. Greatness is a choice. It was tough for me to leave my job and would look foolish to most people, but they don't understand the value of freedom and living without fear or regret.

Excellent points @OverByte. I'm not a CS myself but I've managed technical teams around the world, including CS, and I can attest it's the same in Europe, Asia and Australia (minus the US salary which is lower also in Western Europe).

There are further benefits to getting a slowlane job:

• You get the first hand experience of how various processes work and how they enable technical and commercial systems (or how they slow them down)
• You start to see issues companies face and become more attuned to their needs (not to mention you can speak their language and target them better)
• You can spot talent and build relationships with people you may want to work with or hire in the future
• You have an opportunity to slowly build connections with far more experienced people within the industry (many of them are or will be decision makers) at the inter- and intra-company level
• You learn on the job which is far more valuable than just studying or coding for the sake of coding (that's why I'd recommend getting your foot in the door of the industry of choice already during uni, the earlier the better)

In highly technical fields, I've never seen a self-taught expert who could just enter the field on his own. I'm not saying it can't happen but there are quite significant barriers to entry, including not being exposed to the same level of complexity and funding as slowlane 9-to-5-ers. This is not to say you need to go to uni. Rather, my experience is you won't become a great CS without working on real projects with real players. But I'm in the large enterprise B2B and B2G space and this may be easier to overcome at the small business level.

@VicFountain you also wanted to go abroad. Perhaps uni is a path to your goal? If you decide to take it, go somewhere where you can get yourself exposed to the environment you're looking for, e.g. infrastructure and industry presence, lots of jobs, networking and other opportunities. In the past, I've placed myself in an ecosystem that didn't have abundance of opportunities for me and it was hard to keep going. Definitely look at the bigger picture and not just getting a diploma (the least important element).

As far as "How do you get treated by your boss?" is concerned, I wouldn't worry about it. Some are crappy leaders, some are a pleasure to work with. You don't have to spend your whole life there anyway. Besides, if something is far from optimal, it's your opportunity rather than an obstacle, right?

The downside of this path is of course not having enough time for your projects, any non-compete and IP clauses, and being too tired to work on something else when you come back home. You can also easily become complacent and not rush to chase your fastlane dreams anymore. To uni or not to uni before a slowlane is another question.

 

[RealDreams]

Excellent points @OverByte. I'm not a CS myself but I've managed technical teams around the world, including CS, and I can attest it's the same in Europe, Asia and Australia (minus the US salary which is lower also in Western Europe).

There are further benefits to getting a slowlane job:

• You get the first hand experience of how various processes work and how they enable technical and commercial systems (or how they slow them down)
• You start to see issues companies face and become more attuned to their needs (not to mention you can speak their language and target them better)
• You can spot talent and build relationships with people you may want to work with or hire in the future
• You have an opportunity to slowly build connections with far more experienced people within the industry (many of them are or will be decision makers) at the inter- and intra-company level
• You learn on the job which is far more valuable than just studying or coding for the sake of coding (that's why I'd recommend getting your foot in the door of the industry of choice already during uni, the earlier the better)

In highly technical fields, I've never seen a self-taught expert who could just enter the field on his own. I'm not saying it can't happen but there are quite significant barriers to entry, including not being exposed to the same level of complexity and funding as slowlane 9-to-5-ers. This is not to say you need to go to uni. Rather, my experience is you won't become a great CS without working on real projects with real players. But I'm in the large enterprise B2B and B2G space and this may be easier to overcome at the small business level.

@VicFountain you also wanted to go abroad. Perhaps uni is a path to your goal? If you decide to take it, go somewhere where you can get yourself exposed to the environment you're looking for, e.g. infrastructure and industry presence, lots of jobs, networking and other opportunities. In the past, I've placed myself in an ecosystem that didn't have abundance of opportunities for me and it was hard to keep going. Definitely look at the bigger picture and not just getting a diploma (the least important element).

As far as "How do you get treated by your boss?" is concerned, I wouldn't worry about it. Some are crappy leaders, some are a pleasure to work with. You don't have to spend your whole life there anyway. Besides, if something is far from optimal, it's your opportunity rather than an obstacle, right?

The downside of this path is of course not having enough time for your projects, any non-compete and IP clauses, and being too tired to work on something else when you come back home. You can also easily become complacent and not rush to chase your fastlane dreams anymore. To uni or not to uni before a slowlane is another question.

It took me 8 months to decide, but yeah, I finally switched to computer science (still in Italy cause I can't afford to move overseas yet).
I feel like my business degree was making me so depressed because I couldn't see an alignment with my values and goals.

I now see why people say "stem or don't go". I attended a few lessons in CS in the last days and the differences are huge in comparison to a business course. It's 100x more complex but at the same time more valuable imho.

I'm glad I took this decision. I know the path ahead of me is full of obstacles but again, if it was too easy it wouldn't be worth it. I'm not even a math expert but I decided to join CS with full commitment on learning new things and this will require me to put 10x more effort than I had to put in my business degree.

 

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[OverByte]

I'm not even a math expert but I decided to join CS with full commitment on learning new things

For what it's worth I didn't even have the pre-reqs (high school advanced math/pre-cal) to get in, the only reason I got in was because I actually started in a BA (didn't check math pre-reqs) and then switched into CS. I took calculus and just learned as I went. It was actually very motivating to start from a seemingly disadvantaged position. I was googling what f(x) meant because I heard there was a test the first day in calculus to check if you knew enough. There was a test, I probably failed it but the prof then said the test wouldn't be marked but you should know this is what is expected of you. I sighed relief and got to learning. I brushed all the math stuff off in high school because I just wanted to party with friends and breeze by, once I applied myself math was easy, if you have the right attitude and based on your post I think you do, I think you'll fine the same. All this to say, don't worry if you weren't a "math expert", forget those past labels, you have the capability.