How do i know if i m not violating some patent private labeling a product

[623baller]

Just starting out and a total newbie in this business. i have found a few promising products in my niche but i m not sure if private labeling such product will get me in any trouble. Competition are either selling a known brand version of it or a generic version. i did see same products under a different brand but i cant tell if they are legit or not

i did a search on the US patent database but i just cant be sure if it's a patented product, i visited the major brand website , they said they are patented globally but i dont know if that's just something they state on the site or they actually have the patent. Funny thing is the supplier im getting quotes from indicated on their web site that they have it patented in China as well lol.


anyways, im torn, i feel like i found a product with potential but what can i do as next steps to make sure i wont get in trouble for private labeling it or even just selling the generic version

appreciate any advice!

 

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[amanteai]

I was just pondering this last night, was going to nose around on here to see if I could figure it out. Thanks for asking this.

Trademark refers to wording like a logo or a tag line. Copyright is geared towards artistic items like books and songs. Patent refers to a physical product. So it's possible you'll have to check all 3 depending upon your product.

 

[Vigilante]

Step 1. Ask the manufacturer for proof and/or indemnification

Step 2. Ask a patent attorney to check it out (cost prohibitive though). There's a special kind of legal opinion called "freedom to operate." Doesn't keep you from being sued, though.

Those are the ONLY real answers.

Most physical products that you didn't develop from scratch violate someone's patent. It's simply a question as to how egregious your breach is, and if you pose any business disruption threat to the patent holder.

 

[Vigilante]

Here's a good overview:
http://www.finnegan.com/resources/a...spx?news=14c90ae5-514d-4473-9b8a-ce88ef9ae85a

 

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[623baller]

Step 1. Ask the manufacturer for proof and/or indemnification

Step 2. Ask a patent attorney to check it out (cost prohibitive though). There's a special kind of legal opinion called "freedom to operate." Doesn't keep you from being sued, though.

Those are the ONLY real answers.

Most physical products that you didn't develop from scratch violate someone's patent. It's simply a question as to how egregious your breach is, and if you pose any business disruption threat to the patent holder.

Thanks @Vigilante! this and the link you provided is helpful. unfortunately i dont have the funds for step 2. The manufacturer has a patent in chinese ( i can read chinese so it looks some what legit, but it it seems to be more of an authorized right to produce such product ) but to be honest they are just manufacturing the generic version and even offers private label OEM option so i dont think it will be an issue at the manufacturer side.

i did a little further digging, i also see 1~2 other known name brands besides the major player also selling similar product, so i think it should be fine.

 

[Vigilante]

Keep your investment minimal, and your inventory exposure minimal for the first year in case you should (unlikely) receive a cease and desist. High turnover of inventory, and low on hand inventory.

 

[wbrett1027]

Is it a big company? Does it make enough money for the company to sue you?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

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[623baller]

Keep your investment minimal, and your inventory exposure minimal for the first year in case you should (unlikely) receive a cease and desist. High turnover of inventory, and low on hand inventory.

great advice!

Is it a big company? Does it make enough money for the company to sue you?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

thats hard to say because theres not many others selling that product so i assume i would get on their radar pretty fast thats why i want to be a little bit more cautious

 

[wbrett1027]

great advice!



thats hard to say because theres not many others selling that product so i assume i would get on their radar pretty fast thats why i want to be a little bit more cautious

May I ask where you are selling these products? eBay? Direct to retailers? Amazon? Etc etc???


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Vigilante]

May I ask where you are selling these products? eBay? Direct to retailers? Amazon? Etc etc???


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Why?

 

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[Leo Lex]

Just starting out and a total newbie in this business. i have found a few promising products in my niche but i m not sure if private labeling such product will get me in any trouble. Competition are either selling a known brand version of it or a generic version. i did see same products under a different brand but i cant tell if they are legit or not

i did a search on the US patent database but i just cant be sure if it's a patented product, i visited the major brand website , they said they are patented globally but i dont know if that's just something they state on the site or they actually have the patent. Funny thing is the supplier im getting quotes from indicated on their web site that they have it patented in China as well lol.


anyways, im torn, i feel like i found a product with potential but what can i do as next steps to make sure i wont get in trouble for private labeling it or even just selling the generic version

appreciate any advice!

Have it manufactured in China, they don't care about patents in anyway. Just make sure to grease the wheels good enough.
it is obviously not a noble thing to do, i wouldn't do it, alas its been done everyday successfully. Espically for physical products.

 

[AllenCrawley]

Have it manufactured in China, they don't care about patents in anyway. Just make sure to grease the wheels good enough.
it is obviously not a noble thing to do, i wouldn't do it, alas its been done everyday successfully. Espically for physical products.

Horrible advice.

@Vigilante has laid out the best advice here. Pay careful attention to it.

 

[Leo Lex]

Horrible advice.

@Vigilante has laid out the best advice here. Pay careful attention to it.

Obviously not since that is what is defacto happening right now,

Thanks @Vigilante! this and the link you provided is helpful. unfortunately i dont have the funds for step 2. The manufacturer has a patent in chinese ( i can read chinese so it looks some what legit, but it it seems to be more of an authorized right to produce such product ) but to be honest they are just manufacturing the generic version and even offers private label OEM option so i dont think it will be an issue at the manufacturer side.

i did a little further digging, i also see 1~2 other known name brands besides the major player also selling similar product, so i think it should be fine.

Since "Utility Patent"* laws in China are arbitrary and quite senseless legally it would come down to ensuring the authorities are greased on your side.

*most likely it is a "Utility Patent" but what i say is true for the other type patent in China as well.

 

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[623baller]

Horrible advice.

@Vigilante has laid out the best advice here. Pay careful attention to it.

haha yea . it's not a break through OMG this is the best thing since slice bread type of product. it's so simple many people can manufacturer it without having to reverse engineer from the original product. just i m being very cautious because the major player has stated on their web site that they are globally patented but it's vague if it's patent on the product itself or the technology or type of material they use to make the product. also the fact now i have discovered 1~2 other major brand also selling the same/similar product under their name, i feel more comfortable sourcing it and private labeling it.

 

[Leo Lex]

haha yea . it's not a break through OMG this is the best thing since slice bread type of product. it's so simple many people can manufacturer it without having to reverse engineer from the original product. just i m being very cautious because the major player has stated on their web site that they are globally patented but it's vague if it's patent on the product itself or the technology or type of material they use to make the product. also the fact now i have discovered 1~2 other major brand also selling the same/similar product under their name, i feel more comfortable sourcing it and private labeling it.

Horrible advice and you follow it anyway. Alright.
I know that sort of situation, I had a similar product I wanted to make that also many can use and is simple and physical. The answer is that they will copy it anyway and will make it look like they are playing nice. If you are inside the system you can probably benefit from it.

 

[623baller]

Horrible advice and you follow it anyway. Alright.
The answer is that they will copy it anyway and will make it look like they are playing nice. If you are inside the system you can probably benefit from it.

i have no idea what you mean by your response but thanks anyways.

 

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[Leo Lex]

What part is not lucid?

Because as my understanding goes you still did not see if you have permission from the inventor to use the invention and are going to use it anyway because you saw some other people do it. That is true. Do you agree?

 

[623baller]

What part is not lucid?

Because as my understanding goes you still did not see if you have permission from the inventor to use the invention and are going to use it anyway because you saw some other people do it. That is true. Do you agree?

True but i dont know if his product is a true invention either. what the major player is selling basically combines two other products into one and call it his own (i am 99% sure he doesnt own patent to the other two products because they have been out for a long time), so that's what i meant when i say it's nothing new. (sorry, it's hard to disclose info without giving too much away).

so technically he violates the two other products patent as well if that's the case. I also plan on adding a third feature to this product.

Im going to follow Vigilante's advice. only way to find out is his first two recommendation. those are really the two ways to know for sure.

 

[Leo Lex]

Didn't you say earlier that you were unable to hire a lawyer? Which is as Vig said not a way to know for sure.

Also you said:
"i did a little further digging, i also see 1~2 other known name brands besides the major player also selling similar product, so i think it should be fine."
and:
"thats hard to say because theres not many others selling that product so i assume i would get on their radar pretty fast thats why i want to be a little bit more cautious"

It seems to me that you are willing to use the patent even if you do not have permission from the inventor. Using words such as "radar" and that bigger players do it so you should be fine, no mention if this indicates that they are also infringing or not. Seems to me that you have made up your mind already before you checked if it is under Fair Use for FtO or not.

 

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[623baller]

Didn't you say earlier that you were unable to hire a lawyer? Which is as Vig said not a way to know for sure.

Also you said:
"i did a little further digging, i also see 1~2 other known name brands besides the major player also selling similar product, so i think it should be fine."
and:
"thats hard to say because theres not many others selling that product so i assume i would get on their radar pretty fast thats why i want to be a little bit more cautious"

It seems to me that you are willing to use the patent even if you do not have permission from the inventor. Using words such as "radar" and that bigger players do it so you should be fine, no mention if this indicates that they are also infringing or not. Seems to me that you have made up your mind already before you checked if it is under Fair Use for FtO or not.

True, the Mfg is in China and they already told me they can custom OEM and provide private labels for me but i expect that to come from all China Mfg since they kind of have a different law system on their own entirely.

so then what else you suggest i do then? part of me believes the major player is just throwing the word patent around to create an barrier to entry. because his product is really just combination of two other products. it's not something he created from grounds up.

 

[Leo Lex]

You mean that they have no law system in China. Seriously they do not care, they do not enforce the laws and half of them are made in order to allow more to copy more easily. And when they do get caught they weasel their way out of it with the help of local law.

It doesn't matter if you think they are bluffing, if you are wrong you are an infringer, a thief. On the other hand you don't seem to care about that. So do it in China and make sure to have a way to get out of trouble. Laws in China are just putting on airs as it is, so cut through that and do business like the Chinese understand.

A general note all patents are "obvious in hindsight" but believe me when saying this, they are not. It actually takes work to figure what 2 things to connect and for what and how. Also nothing is created from the ground up, what is a computer chip? Some combination of metal and silicon, nothing made from the ground up. What is a revolver? A firing mechanism and a cylinder. All inventions are combinations.

 

[623baller]

You mean that they have no law system in China. Seriously they do not care, they do not enforce the laws and half of them are made in order to allow more to copy more easily. And when they do get caught they weasel their way out of it with the help of local law.

It doesn't matter if you think they are bluffing, if you are wrong you are an infringer, a thief. On the other hand you don't seem to care about that. So do it in China and make sure to have a way to get out of trouble. Laws in China are just putting on airs as it is, so cut through that and do business like the Chinese understand.

A general note all patents are "obvious in hindsight" but believe me when saying this, they are not. It actually takes work to figure what 2 things to connect and for what and how. Also nothing is created from the ground up, what is a computer chip? Some combination of metal and silicon, nothing made from the ground up. What is a revolver? A firing mechanism and a cylinder. All inventions are combinations.

so base on that logic, wouldn't it be impossible to source and resell majority of what's out there then ?

dont get me wrong here, i definitely dont wana take others hard work/invention and claim it as my own, that's ethically wrong and i wouldnt do it which is why i made this post in the first place.

so you mentioned you had a similar situation , what did yo do then? all i m hearing from you is what cant be done or plan a way out in case of trouble, that to me is just gaming the system as well. anyways thanks for the advice, but unless im hearing something that i can take action on which is basically what Vigilante mentioned (and yes it may mean i need to cough up the fund to hire someone to do the analysis), i'm going to stop responding because both you and I can use the time better.

 

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[Leo Lex]

so base on that logic, wouldn't it be impossible to source and resell majority of what's out there then ?

dont get me wrong here, i definitely dont wana take others hard work/invention and claim it as my own, that's ethically wrong and i wouldnt do it which is why i made this post in the first place.

so you mentioned you had a similar situation , what did yo do then? all i m hearing from you is what cant be done or plan a way out in case of trouble, that to me is just gaming the system as well. anyways thanks for the advice, but unless im hearing something that i can take action on which is basically what Vigilante mentioned (and yes it may mean i need to cough up the fund to hire someone to do the analysis), i'm going to stop responding because both you and I can use the time better.

These things have time limitations on them, they do not stand forever. But most new things would need a patent even if it is seen as "simple" or "obvious" in hindsight. In reality they are not simple nor obvious to think of.

I was on the other side of that situation, I wanted to design something and make sure it will not get infringed with China. I can't, its nigh impossible as things are now. (Also why did u ask at the start of the paragraph if you say that both of can find a better use with our time?)

I don't think you care as it is, especially since u magically conjured a sum for a lawyer just now, don't grasp why FtO and patents are there (and don't seem to care). Think that something in hindsight is obvious. Also it seems you think infringing means saying you did it, not what it means.
I think you just don't care for the sanctity of invention and simply want to make sure you don't get into trouble.
If you want to cover your a$$ then my advice is the best.

I want to be an inventor and really don't like infringers so i am not going to talk to you. Farewell.

 

[Rudynate]

Just starting out and a total newbie in this business. i have found a few promising products in my niche but i m not sure if private labeling such product will get me in any trouble. Competition are either selling a known brand version of it or a generic version. i did see same products under a different brand but i cant tell if they are legit or not

i did a search on the US patent database but i just cant be sure if it's a patented product, i visited the major brand website , they said they are patented globally but i dont know if that's just something they state on the site or they actually have the patent. Funny thing is the supplier im getting quotes from indicated on their web site that they have it patented in China as well lol.


anyways, im torn, i feel like i found a product with potential but what can i do as next steps to make sure i wont get in trouble for private labeling it or even just selling the generic version

appreciate any advice!

In the United States, claiming that a product is patented that is, in fact, not patented is called "false marking." False marking is a federal crime punishable by a fine of up to $500.00 per incidence. So a product run of 1000 pieces could end up costing the perp $500k if they all entered the stream of commerce.

 

[Leo Lex]

In the United States, claiming that a product is patented that is, in fact, not patented is called "false marking." False marking is a federal crime punishable by a fine of up to $500.00 per incidence. So a product run of 1000 pieces could end up costing the perp $500k if they all entered the stream of commerce.

Alas the burden is on him to prove otherwise, also they can always claim that some part of the product is patented and manipulate the words to make the statement truthful.
Somewhat like how Obiwan said that Darth Vader killed Luke's father. He did in a spiritual sense thing. So Obi was not lying.

 

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[623baller]

These things have time limitations on them, they do not stand forever. But most new things would need a patent even if it is seen as "simple" or "obvious" in hindsight. In reality they are not simple nor obvious to think of.

I was on the other side of that situation, I wanted to design something and make sure it will not get infringed with China. I can't, its nigh impossible as things are now. (Also why did u ask at the start of the paragraph if you say that both of can find a better use with our time?)

I don't think you care as it is, especially since u magically conjured a sum for a lawyer just now, don't grasp why FtO and patents are there (and don't seem to care). Think that something in hindsight is obvious. Also it seems you think infringing means saying you did it, not what it means.
I think you just don't care for the sanctity of invention and simply want to make sure you don't get into trouble.
If you want to cover your a$$ then my advice is the best.

I want to be an inventor and really don't like infringers so i am not going to talk to you. Farewell.

we could use the time to grow our business rather than going back and forth making assumptions of each other. i don't need to hear about how to game the system or how to bail myself out. i want a solution to move forward that's legit which may mean i need to spend the money to hire a patent lawyer to do the analysis.

if i didn't care at all, this post would have not existed. so you can go ahead and keep making assumptions and accusations about me but i want to do the right thing. BYE!

 

[Rudynate]

Alas the burden is on him to prove otherwise, also they can always claim that some part of the product is patented and manipulate the words to make the statement truthful.
Somewhat like how Obiwan said that Darth Vader killed Luke's father. He did in a spiritual sense thing. So Obi was not lying.

But since false marking is a crime, it is a reasonable assumption that a product marked "patented" is patented. You're right though, the fact that a product is not marked "patented" does not mean it is not patented. It is extremely difficult in that situation to do a patent search and try to map the claims of an issued patent to the features of a particular product to see if it is a patent that covers the product.

 

[Leo Lex]

From what i can tell you want to feel as if you are doing the right thing while having no idea what is right.
From this point on i will ignore you. i implore others to do the same.

 

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[Leo Lex]

But since false marking is a crime, it is a reasonable assumption that a product marked "patented" is patented. You're right though, the fact that a product is not marked "patented" does not mean it is not patented. It is extremely difficult in that situation to do a patent search and try to map the claims of an issued patent to the features of a particular product to see if it is a patent that covers the product.

No kudos for my Star Wars reference... though crowd... though crowd...
But yes it is tricky to get out of, which is one thing that legally needs to be addressed in patent reform. The Patent system needs to be seriously slashed in complexity and time. And to fire many many bureaucrats (as always)

 

[Rudynate]

Most physical products that you didn't develop from scratch violate someone's patent. It's simply a question as to how egregious your breach is, and if you pose any business disruption threat to the patent holder.

Very astute observation.