Have someone on the forum successfully "escaped" uncle sam ?

[eekern]

Ok, I will jump straight to my point. I pay 47% + taxes now (Norway) and even with a small income I already try to find solutions to this massive problem.

I have found pages like this: https://www.nathantrust.com/setting-up-a-company-in-ireland/

But at the same time, I have been reading many places that the only bulletproof way is to change residency or move permanent.

I asked @Andy Black since I knew he was from Ireland but he referred me to @tflfguy @GlobalWealth

I figured I just make a thread to maybe start a conversation about this:

1) Has someone moved to another country because of taxes ?
2) Has someone got hit in the face trying to sneak away from your goverment?
3) Is it less drastic measure than moving that could give you another "script" to live by ?

 

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[MTF]

1. I once considered this, but I realized I'd rather pay more in taxes and stay in my country than become a tax exile, save money and not be able to spend time with my friends and family whenever I wanted. I don't like paying taxes, either, but money isn't everything. Moving to another country to not pay taxes or to pay less in taxes means you can only spend a limited amount of time in your home country. You also need to be very careful not to be considered a tax resident (in most places this means you can't own a house or even a vehicle in your home country).

Note that many places with low or no taxes aren't developed countries, so you might save in taxes, but you'll lose access to good infrastructure, fast Internet, and in the case of Norway, free healthcare and other benefits you'll have to cover out of your own pocket. I'd suggest spending some time in a developing country to see if it's a good fit for you as many things you take for granted in Norway aren't available in those countries or work in a different way (simple things can take a lot of time to get done).

2. If you want to do this, make sure everything is legal. No amount of money "saved" in taxes is worth losing your freedom. Don't try to "sneak away," this is serious stuff that can lead to jail time if you don't do it properly.

3. In most countries as long as you're a tax resident there you'll owe taxes to the government. Even if you set up a company in another country, if you reside in Norway your company will most likely be considered a Norwegian tax resident. Otherwise everybody would set up companies in tax havens. Even if you somehow manage to avoid paying corporate tax, you'll still owe personal income tax. This stuff is super complicated and it's best to talk with an international tax attorney in Norway, not a guy from Ireland or the US.

 

[Napoolion]

You can check e-residency of Estonia and make a company with that, but there is quite high taxes here as well, just seems to be less than in Norway. Here is the system what has high taxes 33% for employee wages, but you can get dividends out of the company with 20% tax. If you are not taking any money out from company and want to reinvest it, it is 0%.

For me, I do not worry about high taxes just yet, I will feel it when it becomes a big problem and focus on it then.

 

[Sean Kaye]

I have a thing about taxes... I figure, if I'm paying a lot, I must be making a lot.

Living in Australia, I am in the 1% so I end up paying my fair share of taxes - let's just say it's six figures a year and leave it at that.

I could spend time worrying about how much I'm paying in taxes or I can spend time worrying about how I can make more money.

I choose the latter.

Back in 2008 when our online businesses started to grow legs, I found a good tax accountant who understood online businesses and we set up a bunch of tax structures to ensure that I didn't pay any more than I had to, but also didn't expose me to any tax nasties.

I'll never forget, as he handed me the last document to sign he said, "Ok, this is the last one and then you can get back to actually creating more wealth and stop spending time trying to hide it."

That stuck with me.

 

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[Longinus]

I'm sure @GlobalWealth might help you.

Edit: just saw you mentioned him.

Even I'm not making enough yet to make the step, it's definitely something I will dig deeper into. I rather pay a company that will setup something than an inefficient and ineffective government.

I believe there are some systems where you don't have to live outside your country.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Ok, I will jump straight to my point. I pay 47% + taxes now (Norway) and even with a small income I already try to find solutions to this massive problem.

Norway has some fairly complex CFC rules so unless you are willing to give up some control and ownership of your company (51%) you will need to change your residency status for any serious tax savings.

 

[GlobalWealth]

1) Has someone moved to another country because of taxes ?

I have many clients who have moved for many reasons, tax being one of them.

2) Has someone got hit in the face trying to sneak away from your goverment?

For sure, many have. No one that I know though.

3) Is it less drastic measure than moving that could give you another "script" to live by ?

It really depends on a lot of factors;

• Your residency
• Your citizenship
• Where you spend your time
• Your company jurisdiction
• Your clients' location

There is no simple answer unfortunately.

 

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[GlobalWealth]

I believe there are some systems where you don't have to live outside your country.

It really depends on your country of citizenship and residency, plus other factors like your company domicile, your client location, and where you spend your time.

The US has very complex CFC rules, but if you are non-resident it is quite easy to accomplish. There are ways as a resident also, but they are more difficult and costly, which just means you need to consider the cost vs. benefits of establishing such a structure.

If you are paying $100k in taxes and can set up the structure and maintain it for $20k/year and can save the $100k, you are net positive $80k. Seems like a no brainer.

 

[GlobalWealth]

1. I once considered this, but I realized I'd rather pay more in taxes and stay in my country than become a tax exile, save money and not be able to spend time with my friends and family whenever I wanted. I don't like paying taxes, either, but money isn't everything. Moving to another country to not pay taxes or to pay less in taxes means you can only spend a limited amount of time in your home country. You also need to be very careful not to be considered a tax resident (in most places this means you can't own a house or even a vehicle in your home country).

Unfortunately for you, your country has some of the worst CFC rules in the world. The regulators actually implemented the worst parts of other countries' legislation. In your case, if you wanted to save on tax, you need to change your residence. That does not means you cannot visit. In your country, you can easily be in the country up to 182 days per year without having a taxable event as long as you have a tax home somewhere else.

2. If you want to do this, make sure everything is legal. No amount of money "saved" in taxes is worth losing your freedom. Don't try to "sneak away," this is serious stuff that can lead to jail time if you don't do it properly.

Agreed. No sense in jeopardizing your freedom for money.

3. In most countries as long as you're a tax resident there you'll owe taxes to the government. Even if you set up a company in another country, if you reside in Norway your company will most likely be considered a Norwegian tax resident. Otherwise everybody would set up companies in tax havens. Even if you somehow manage to avoid paying corporate tax, you'll still owe personal income tax. This stuff is super complicated and it's best to talk with an international tax attorney in Norway, not a guy from Ireland or the US.

In most, but not all. In the EU there are several countries that do not have CFC rules at all, which means you can shift some of your business profit offshore tax deferred.

There are also countries like Panama and Georgia that do not tax you individually on income earned outside their country. This makes it ideal for someone who wants to move their tax home but not get caught in another tax trap.

For example, if your tax home is in Georgia and your offshore company is in Anguilla, you would not owe any tax in Anguilla (zero tax) nor would you owe any tax in Georgia as they do not tax income earned from abroad.

 

[lowtek]

some next level shit in here...

One thing I should point out for my compatriots here in the states, the USA will tax you no matter where you live, so long as you are a citizen. "Record numbers" of people are renouncing citizenship to get around this (order of thousands a year), but that in itself typically entails a fee and possibly an exit tax.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Taxes cannot be avoided, but they can be reduced within the scope of the given laws.

In the end, I would NEVER recommend "escaping" or trying some complicated avoidance scheme -- our foremost objective is FREEDOM, and you don't f*ck with someone/something that can take your freedom.

You break the law, you risk jail.

My thoughts on taxes has always been to simply accept it, and then try to make more money beyond my relative "happiness threshold".

My happiness tomorrow will be the same if I make either $100K or $1M/yr -- so paying the taxes, whatever they might be, becomes a non-issue.

 

[CareCPA]

Taxes cannot be avoided, but they can be reduced within the scope of the given laws.

In the end, I would NEVER recommend "escaping" or trying some complicated avoidance scheme -- our foremost objective is FREEDOM, and you don't f*ck with someone/something that can take your freedom.

You break the law, you risk jail.

My thoughts on taxes has always been to simply accept it, and then try to make more money beyond my relative "happiness threshold".

My happiness tomorrow will be the same if I make either $100K or $1M/yr -- so paying the taxes, whatever they might be, becomes a non-issue.

Agree with most of what @MJ DeMarco said (taxes actually can be avoided - or at least substantially deferred - depending on how far you're willing to go).

To me, the fact that I'm paying taxes means I'm making money. And while I may not agree with everything our government does, I at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they are doing what they honestly believe will make the country better.

There is some low-hanging fruit that many people can do to lower their taxes. Beyond that, things get complicated pretty quickly. I'm given to understand that @GlobalWealth does some amazing international structuring to reduce taxes substantially. But I've also spoken to people who don't understand the structures he's setting up. So I believe it is up to each person to decide which part of the [tax<-->simplicity] spectrum they want to be on.

 

[fxmm]

@eekern

As a few members have already mentioned it, that it really depends on your circumstance and what you are willing to do. And as others have mentioned it's fine to pay some form of tax.

I personally used to be in the EU then moved out to Asia. Not for tax reasons but for lifestyle reasons. Of course there were tax changes with my move in country.

It also depends how much you are earning, as some of these company structures are costly.

If you have any Qs PM me.

Good luck

Ok, I will jump straight to my point. I pay 47% + taxes now (Norway) and even with a small income I already try to find solutions to this massive problem.

I have found pages like this: https://www.nathantrust.com/setting-up-a-company-in-ireland/

But at the same time, I have been reading many places that the only bulletproof way is to change residency or move permanent.

I asked @Andy Black since I knew he was from Ireland but he referred me to @tflfguy @GlobalWealth

I figured I just make a thread to maybe start a conversation about this:

1) Has someone moved to another country because of taxes ?
2) Has someone got hit in the face trying to sneak away from your goverment?
3) Is it less drastic measure than moving that could give you another "script" to live by ?

 

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[fxmm]

Forgot to add, Eduardo from FB did it as well.

Renounced his US citizenship for Singapore. The scheme he used is getting much harder to obtain.

Why Eduardo Saverin moved to Singapore