Giving and Taking Feedback on (and off) This Forum

[AndrewNC]

I'm writing this thread because there were many times in the past where myself and others wanted to tell someone they are doing something wrong, that they need to do things another way, etc. - and no matter how much you logically try to tell them: the message doesn't get through to the other person.

After learning, practice, failing, and experience, I discovered a way to create a change in the other person's problem...in a way where you don't have feel like you're speaking to a brick wall, or your voice is being unheard....

There is a recent thread where a member of this community was asking for advice, and needless to say; things escalated very quickly "on both sides".

There are three parts of the human being:

1. The conscious mind. (10%) - Logical communication
2. The unconscious mind. (90%) - The Part of the mind that is directly responsible for human behavior.
3. The higher self. (114.3%)

The way we have been conditioned to communicate most of our lives (from our parents, from our teachers, society, etc.) is through logical/conscious communication.

• "Just take action."
• "You have to add value."
• "Stop chasing money."

The problem with this (great) logical advice is two-fold:

1. The conscious mind (where logical advice passes through) serves as a filter, and a guard to the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind (which is also the realm of the emotions) is where human behavior originates from. Through hypnosis, and other forms of influential communication; effective communicators are able to speak directly to the part of the brain which results in behavior.

If we try to power our way through the conscious mind, it is largely ineffective for creating actual change. We scream louder and it's almost as if nothing we say can get through to the person. It's frustrating and annoying when you see clear as day what the solution is...

The conscious mind is also the ego.

In the thread referenced above, a person's ego was attacked; which puts the person on red alert, and the deeper part of them thinks that the attack on their ego is a life or death situation. The fight or flight response kicks in, he is backed in the corner, and the guard is on full alert.

Their guard is up, and it's virtually impossible to get through to them once the guard is put on alert. It's best to avoid that....

Think of it as if you're a police officer who pulls someone over for speeding. You go up to the car, and when they reach back for their license, they reach onto the grip of handgun which is hidden in their waistband and it looks like the driver will pull it out. From that moment forward, you, as the officer, goes on red alert, and what's bound to happen?

For the entire remainder of the traffic stop...the guard is up, and you won't let it down.

Guns are drawn, backup is called, and no matter what the driver says, you're not even listening to him until he puts the gun down.

It's game over for any logical communication, the emotions kicked in full gear.

The same thing happens when a person feels their ego is being attacked...red alert...game over - you get nowhere with your advice.

So how do we get the message across to a person without setting their guard on full alert?

We take the point of reference off of of the person we are talking to, and onto a third party character...

Before we get to that, can you see what I'm saying about how once the red alert is triggered from the police officer/gun/traffic stop story? Can you visualize it in your head? How when the red alert is triggered it won't go down? And can you relate that to the communication with attacking the ego and how you should avoid putting the person's conscious mind/guard on red alert?

When the ego is on red alert, it stays up and it blocks off information from entering to the point of the brain that actually causes change...

The reason I told the story is because the part of the mind that is responsible for human behavior thinks in pictures and symbols.

I'm helping someone start a mens relationships coaching business right now. When he says something along the lines of "I'm going to go try to make the sale because I need one" in terms of getting a customer...I use a reference he's familiar with in dating.

"Can you picture a guy going up to a girl at a bar and trying to get her phone number? Does someone desperately trying for it come from a standpoint of higher value or lower value? Now, instead of trying to get the number, a man comes up and displays higher value. He is funny, charismatic, charming, comes from a standpoint of abundance, and is secure with himself. Would that women be more attracted to him because he come from a position of being someone a person wants to be with?"

Of course.

"So what if instead of trying to make a sale, you come from the standpoint of higher value, abundance, and you demonstrate how much value you can add to the guys' life? You demonstrate that you can solve their problems, you offer value to their lives. Just like the women want to be with the confident man, the guys you help want to be around the services your company offers. Makes sense?"

Of course.

So by doing two things:

1. Painting a picture that parallels the situation (the unconscious mind thinks in pictures and symbols), this is how you communicate with the part of the mind that actually responds to human behavior. This is commonalty referred to using analogies and metaphors within your communication.

"Stop trying to chase money..." (Conscious guard filters information).

The dating analogy (or any analogy that parallels that situation)...Speaks directly to the unconscious mind, which is the part of the mind that actually impacts the person's behavior.

What analogies/metaphors can you use, instead of giving logical advice?

2. Taking the point of reference off the person you're communicating with. When an ego thinks it's being attacked directly, it think's it's a life or death situation in real life, so the guard is on red alert like the police officer who sees the man reaching for a gun.

This is called the power of disassociation.

While I was painting the picture (through an analogy/metaphor) of the man trying to get the girl's phone number from a position of lower value...the relationship coach's conscious/guard mind was distracted and not on high alert because I wasn't talking about him...

I was talking about a guy at a bar....and then because I paralleled his situation (Trying to get number vs trying to make sales), I created the change in the part of his mind that actually influences his behavior.

He understood the message of coming from a standpoint of higher value because of the visual of a confident man speaking to a women. Immediately after this new internal representation (scene in his mind) was created, he then went on to attract his first coaching client - helping a guy improve his relationships.

So whenever I see someone who is making a mistake that is obvious with their mindset/actions, I try to keep this in mind:

1. Disassociate - Take the point of reference off their ego so they don't go on high alert and filter out the information.

2. Parallel the situation using pictures, symbols, analogies, and metaphors. When you create these pictures and stories in the person's unconscious mind (which usually have nothing to do with the surface-level content of their problem), these new internal representations are what are responsible for their new behavior. I used the dating example because the guy I'm talking to is knowledgable about dating. IF a person is into fishing, healthy eating, or racing turtles in their backyard...using an analogy that the are familiar with helps (but isn't necessary).

Now, for TAKING advice when people attack your ego...

Option 1 - spend years on a journey of spiritual enlightenment journey and surpass your ego and become one with the universe.

Option 2 - Fight for your survival and defend your ego, not giving a **** about the logical advice people give you. Sometimes this just feels better...but leaves you stuck...

Option 3 (the preferred method)- Disassociate. Imagine floating out of the scene, and seeing someone else having the same problems you went through. Parallel the situation, but see someone else instead of yourself. Create images in your mind of what things they can do, and then take the advice people gave you, and translate it to the pictures in your mind of the other person. And observe how the other person can improve their circumstances.

It's these internal representations that are build in our mind which impact our perception of the world and our behavior. When you learn how to shift those, you are now a more effective communicator.

 

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[SteveO]

I personally feel that if it is obvious a person is not accepting feedback the way it was intended, that it is best to let it go. There are other ways to direct your energies.

There are hundreds of people asking for feedback. Most of them have not separated the old way of thinking from what is being presented to them YET. Patience may bring them around or it may not. Chastising and hammering will not fix anything though.

The case you are referencing is pretty extreme. It probably would have been best to quit responding and let the thread die.

Your point of viewing the feedback as a third party is good. The problem is getting that word out to the many people that are asking.

 

[Joe Cassandra]

Great thoughts @AndrewNC.

When you're doing sales, it's something similar. I first heard this from Bryan Kreuzberger but he didn't 'invent it'. But, it's one of the most powerful sales + persuasion lessons ever.

Basically, as you described, each person only gets swayed when they're in motion. And that's why this is called the "Pendulum Theory." To convince someone of anything, you must first get them "IN" motion.

EXAMPLE:

Prospect: "Your product is too expensive."
BAD SALESMEN: "I don't believe we are. See, we are as competitive as the other guys."

Prospect will not be sold (most of time)
--------------
Prospect: "Your product is too expensive."
GOOD SALESMEN: "You are right, we are more expensive than other guys. And if you aren't comfortable with this, we can absolutely stop here. But, let me ask you this: What price are you comfortable with?"

Prospect will start swinging in motion

What you're doing is pushing the prospect towards "NO SALE" by pulling back from them or even JOINING THEM on the "NO SALE" side. What that does is it gets the prospect in motion.

We only buy when our eMOTION kicks in enough.

--------------------------
In today's political craziness and anger, what you described Andrew runs rampant every second on social media:

Person #1: "Trump's a psycho and deserves to be impeached."
Person #2: "Oh, I'm sure Crooked Hillary would've been much better, you're a nut."

Fight ensues.

Instead, watch how this approach changes.

Person #1: "Trump's a psycho and deserves to be impeached."
Person #2: "You're right, he's done some crazy things on Twitter, right?"
Person #1: "Tell me about it!"
Person #2: " As a long-time Democrat, I can understand exactly your frustration. I was frustrated with Obama during his 8 years. But, he always seemed like a pretty cool dude to hang out with regardless. Do you think Trump's done anything you like?
Person #1: "I dunno, not much. Maybe...X, Y, Z"

The point is to get on their side first instead of sparring with them.

----------------
When I've been talking with a prospect awhile and they seem to be dragging their fight, I like to pull out:
JOE: "Look, John, I obviously don't want to waste your time. It seems now isn't the right time to work together and that's absolutely okay. If anything changes, give me a call. Good luck."

Typically, I'll get 1 of 2 responses:
1. "Thanks Joe, talk soon." or just no response. This means they were never interested and I can stop wasting my time pursuing them.

Or, (and this just happened last week)

2. "Well, I mean...how can we make the pricing work for both of us? "

Now, the negotiations have opened up again because I put them into motion again.

 

[unaided]

This post reminded me of some techniques in assertiveness from "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Manuel Smith.

You acknowledge the concern, be a "broken record" on your advice, offer a middle ground solution if pressed....and repeat for every excuse that's present. When it comes to giving advice...ask questions...

They ask: "how can I lose weight?"

Bad advice.. "you should...[keto paleo vegan calorie count macro fasting MLM-shake the weight off"
Good advice. "What are you doing now?"...followed by "how is that working for you"...."how might you do that differently?"

Once they identify what they should be doing on their own...

"Right, I think you should try that and keep it to that for now and just check back with me in 3 days on how it went..."

You can do this on both ends of the spectrum....both in how you give or receive support or feedback.

Acknowledging their ego is important in both. Also can tease out their seriousness in asking and makomg them do a little work before you spend an hour giving detailed advice that they will never follow...the best teachers bring up more questions than answers.



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[unaided]

Sorry book link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004IK8Q22/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20 (non affiliate)

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[The-J]

Not only this, but people like to identify with things outside themselves. If you point the focus at one of these things, you might completely lose them anyway. Good post.

I tend to agree with @SteveO because to be honest, none of us are in the business of converting people; we're in the business of showing people how they can convert on their own.

 

[ZF Lee]

Great thoughts @AndrewNC.

When you're doing sales, it's something similar. I first heard this from Bryan Kreuzberger but he didn't 'invent it'. But, it's one of the most powerful sales + persuasion lessons ever.

Basically, as you described, each person only gets swayed when they're in motion. And that's why this is called the "Pendulum Theory." To convince someone of anything, you must first get them "IN" motion.

EXAMPLE:

Prospect: "Your product is too expensive."
BAD SALESMEN: "I don't believe we are. See, we are as competitive as the other guys."

Prospect will not be sold (most of time)
--------------
Prospect: "Your product is too expensive."
GOOD SALESMEN: "You are right, we are more expensive than other guys. And if you aren't comfortable with this, we can absolutely stop here. But, let me ask you this: What price are you comfortable with?"

Prospect will start swinging in motion

What you're doing is pushing the prospect towards "NO SALE" by pulling back from them or even JOINING THEM on the "NO SALE" side. What that does is it gets the prospect in motion.

We only buy when our eMOTION kicks in enough.

--------------------------
In today's political craziness and anger, what you described Andrew runs rampant every second on social media:

Person #1: "Trump's a psycho and deserves to be impeached."
Person #2: "Oh, I'm sure Crooked Hillary would've been much better, you're a nut."

Fight ensues.

Instead, watch how this approach changes.

Person #1: "Trump's a psycho and deserves to be impeached."
Person #2: "You're right, he's done some crazy things on Twitter, right?"
Person #1: "Tell me about it!"
Person #2: " As a long-time Democrat, I can understand exactly your frustration. I was frustrated with Obama during his 8 years. But, he always seemed like a pretty cool dude to hang out with regardless. Do you think Trump's done anything you like?
Person #1: "I dunno, not much. Maybe...X, Y, Z"

The point is to get on their side first instead of sparring with them.

----------------
When I've been talking with a prospect awhile and they seem to be dragging their fight, I like to pull out:
JOE: "Look, John, I obviously don't want to waste your time. It seems now isn't the right time to work together and that's absolutely okay. If anything changes, give me a call. Good luck."

Typically, I'll get 1 of 2 responses:
1. "Thanks Joe, talk soon." or just no response. This means they were never interested and I can stop wasting my time pursuing them.

Or, (and this just happened last week)

2. "Well, I mean...how can we make the pricing work for both of us? "

Now, the negotiations have opened up again because I put them into motion again.

Good diatribes on sales psychology. Reps+

Reminds me of statesman in my country who said, 'Debates are useless. No one will agree with one another, and everyone will just become more strongly opinionated of their own ideology.'

On customers, I was reading some Jordan Belfort material on range of customers:

1.Customers who are really looking for something to solve their problems, 100% confirmed
2. Customers who are looking for something, but need the push or motivation such as friends or some educational material
3. Customers who are just window shopping. They aren't looking for anything specifically.
4. Customers who absolutely do not want to buy.

Customers from 1. and 2. should be our targets. 3. and 4. should be let go once identified. This is why I hate traditional ads or shady sales techniques that focus on manipulation and forcing...they never take into account that not everyone will buy.

BTW, @Joe Cassandra, how did you did the price workings with that client? Any particular strategies you use on the norm? Typically I see membership fees, package purchases and installments as the norm especially for high-ticket sales.

 

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[ZF Lee]

I personally feel that if it is obvious a person is not accepting feedback the way it was intended, that it is best to let it go. There are other ways to direct your energies.

There are hundreds of people asking for feedback. Most of them have not separated the old way of thinking from what is being presented to them YET. Patience may bring them around or it may not. Chastising and hammering will not fix anything though.

The case you are referencing is pretty extreme. It probably would have been best to quit responding and let the thread die.

Your point of viewing the feedback as a third party is good. The problem is getting that word out to the many people that are asking.

IMO, contributing more advice even to 'dismal' threads can be quite golden. Ah, the benefits of a legacy system such as an online forum!

Even if OP were to reject advice, many more people will visit the thread. And much of the bad stuff can be filtered out safely with the 'most likes' button. And thus, the new readers that come along can be helped in some manner.

So we are dealing with a scenerio that does not allow our contributions or energies to be restricted. Had it been an offline counselling session, of course it would be best to redirect energies to somewhere else.

I'm not going to lie that there was enough advice in the thread Andrew referred to, that could begin the transformation of one's perception of value. One takeaway we could have from that thread is that wealth, or even the identification of wealth's value, comes from how we value our present assets, monetary or not, such as the people or women around us. When we value people, especially women, we will value the process they undertook, their mistakes and successes to become the unique souls they are now.

And if we can value process, any process that leads to a meaningful outcome, we will meet wealth.

Now, for TAKING advice when people attack your ego...

Option 1 - spend years on a journey of spiritual enlightenment journey and surpass your ego and become one with the universe.

Option 2 - Fight for your survival and defend your ego, not giving a **** about the logical advice people give you. Sometimes this just feels better...but leaves you stuck...

Option 3 (the preferred method)- Disassociate. Imagine floating out of the scene, and seeing someone else having the same problems you went through. Parallel the situation, but see someone else instead of yourself. Create images in your mind of what things they can do, and then take the advice people gave you, and translate it to the pictures in your mind of the other person. And observe how the other person can improve their circumstances.

Option 1 has a low success rate as dead men tell no tales lol. And besides, spiritual enlightment is hard to measure because there are lots of subjective notions on spirituality.

I myself deploy a mix of Option 2 and 3.
I subscribe to Option 2 when people trigger the 'do what you love' or 'pay your dues' or any fundamental crap that goes against the cores of UNSCRIPTION. I find that I use Option 2 more often with people who do not have the capacity for a subjective, intelligent discussion, and can only rely on fierce tones, name dropping (such as 'Warren Buffett invests, so do what he does to get rich!) and Lonny leaping. You can be surprised, most of them were older than I am.

It's not that such people were incapable of being impacted by emotional based conversations. It was that they weren't really accustomed to communicate emotionally with empathy...they were 'hard sales' people. Most people talk because they are driven to get something from another, and that tendency dominates for 10-20 years....resulting in today's dismal standards of salesmanship. I know because I have been hard saled to....at an education fair.

While Option 3 is the best, I find that you need to use it with people who know what in the heck they are talking about, and they are respectable people with some execution on the topic of discussion. I have used this with business men and professionals with at least 20 years in the field. Although there are lots of different processes in various industries, emotional linkages of customers with seller is what makes everything make sense.

I have also used this with people who are not experienced veterans, but who are charity kind of people. They are pastors, altruistic people and close relatives. Even teachers.

Choice of weapons for different situations.

 

[DustinH]

One of things I like about this forum is the feedback being poignant, harsh, unapologetic, but necessary. As long as the feedback is on topic to the discussion then that is what makes the forum unique. Sometimes we need an outlet that tells us to cut the sh*t and get back on track of the right process. No one else around you will provide enough pushback for you to be successful. This forum provides that pushback and discussion to tell you that you are wrong or right. You can take or leave the recommendations but at least you're getting honest opinions.


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[Sequential]

edit: nvm.

 

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