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RANT Fighting Temptation

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404profound

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I got through user tests and am now into the follow-up development effort to fix and add based on feedback. One of the users just offered me a XXX,XXX salaried developer role based on seeing the app.

Now, I am tempted to take this role immediately. It is remote. I could live in the boonies of West Virginia and pay a nickel for rent, racking up serious residuals. However, that's not why I started this project, and it won't be why I finish. I am building this to have a business.

Just wanted to vent that I am staring a gold JOB in the face and refuse to take it.
 

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Bekit

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Would taking the job derail your goals? Or would you still be able to complete your vision while raking in $$$ that you can roll into further business development/marketing?

Congrats on the validation and vote of confidence on your skills that one of your users immediately offered you a position!!!

If it's not right for you, don't take it...but wow, that does take some serious guts to turn something like that down.
 
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404profound

404profound

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Would taking the job derail your goals? Or would you still be able to complete your vision while raking in $$$ that you can roll into further business development/marketing?

Congrats on the validation and vote of confidence on your skills that one of your users immediately offered you a position!!!

If it's not right for you, don't take it...but wow, that does take some serious guts to turn something like that down.
Thanks! My concern is control. It would be a risk for them to hire me while he knows I have a second revenue stream. I'd expect they would make me choose between them or my app.
 

Bekit

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Why can't you negotiate that? "Hey if you want to hire me, fine, but I'm going to keep my own thing going too." They can take it or leave it; you have nothing to lose because you were going to turn down the position anyway...
 
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404profound

404profound

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Why can't you negotiate that? "Hey if you want to hire me, fine, but I'm going to keep my own thing going too." They can take it or leave it; you have nothing to lose because you were going to turn down the position anyway...
Hmm, that's a great point. This is where my lack of people skills shines. I may have already burned the bridge on that one, but may be worth reengaging the convo.
 
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Bekit

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It depends how hungry they are. The fact that they approached you with that level of an offer shows me two things: (1) You hold the cards and (2) They are having a hard time finding someone.

If you've already burned the bridge, does that mean that you've already turned down the position?

Maybe you could come back to them with something like, "Hey [name], just wanted to circle back and clarify one thing. I said no to the position because I was assuming that you'd make me choose between me and my app... but is that actually the case?"
 

Kruiser

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It would be a risk for them to hire me while he knows I have a second revenue stream. I'd expect they would make me choose between them or my app.
Dfaq? Don't negotiate against yourself. Let the company that made you an offer manage their own risk. That's not your problem. Don't assume they'd make you choose between them and your app. Let them actually demand that first. As long as you get their stuff done and do a good job, they likely won't care that you are working on your own stuff on the side. Or maybe they will, and then you negotiate that.

Think win/win, both/and. Not either/or.

Why not make 6 figures and keep moving on your own business? I don't mean to sound critical, but it sounds like you are unnecessarily giving up what might be a great opportunity for you (to make cash and continue with your own business) because of untested negative assumptions.
 
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404profound

404profound

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Dfaq? Don't negotiate against yourself. Let the company that made you an offer manage their own risk. That's not your problem. Don't assume they'd make you choose between them and your app. Let them actually demand that first. As long as you get their stuff done and do a good job, they likely won't care that you are working on your own stuff on the side. Or maybe they will, and then you negotiate that.

Think win/win, both/and. Not either/or.

Why not make 6 figures and keep moving on your own business? I don't mean to sound critical, but it sounds like you are unnecessarily giving up what might be a great opportunity for you (to make cash and continue with your own business) because of untested negative assumptions.
Your logic definitely makes sense. I think overtime I've become self-deprecating to the point that my default assumption is negativity.
 

Zcott

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Your logic definitely makes sense. I think overtime I've become self-deprecating to the point that my default assumption is negativity.
Look at it logically - you are building your own thing, working towards your goals, based on your vision, and someone just offered you a $XXX,XXX salary. You can self-deprecate all you want, but facts show that you are obviously smart, talented, and valuable.

Given that it is remote you'd save time on commuting. Is there no reason why when you aren't working on your own project you can't also work for them?

You wouldn't be giving in to an employer, you would be an entrepreneur who also temporarily works remotely for blah blah.
 

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No shame in taking the job, dude. The money opens up opportunities, as well as the interaction with other people and seeing how someone else runs a business.
 

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I've talk to people who wants to create a business or others ventures but will not take a job.
A job will open up opportunities for you to identify a problem. It's even better when you take a job (if needed) that is in the market you want to enter. Also it teaches you about business depending on your mindset and perspective. For example creating customer loyalty not just satisfaction.
 

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Jeremy H(Loop)

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Look at it logically - you are building your own thing, working towards your goals, based on your vision, and someone just offered you a $XXX,XXX salary. You can self-deprecate all you want, but facts show that you are obviously smart, talented, and valuable.

Given that it is remote you'd save time on commuting. Is there no reason why when you aren't working on your own project you can't also work for them?

You wouldn't be giving in to an employer, you would be an entrepreneur who also temporarily works remotely for blah blah.
I must say I am in the exact situation almost as OP. After reading over the thread, talking with some like minded friends, and doing some of my own thinking ive concluded to continue on with said company as well as continue to grow my online business I plan on releasing by end of year, and I am going to be purchasing my first Multi-Family Household by end of May! As others have said the money is a major factor especially if you're plans are to run a business from scratch which typically requires some decent chunk of capital. Thanks for input and good luck to OP!
 

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I guess it depends on your situation.

Do you have a job currently? Would this be better than your current job? Then it's a no-brainer, you can quit your current job and take the new one.

If you don't have a job currently, are you making more than you spend? If not, then you should probably take the job.

If you make enough to live on without a job, then is your fastlane venture limited more by money or by time? If it's money, the job could act as an accelerant. If it's time, then it will only slow you down. The goal with fastlane is to strike it rich, bigger than $XXX,XXX, and to do that you need a business to grow exponentially over a long period. A job will only slow that longer growth curve (assuming you are limited by time).
 

The Abundant Man

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Thanks! My concern is control. It would be a risk for them to hire me while he knows I have a second revenue stream. I'd expect they would make me choose between them or my app.
A lot of people take more than one job. There's plenty of people who join the National Guard or Reserves while having a Civilian Career.

Don't understand why they'd be worried that you'd have a second income.
 
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404profound

404profound

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A lot of people take more than one job. There's plenty of people who join the National Guard or Reserves while having a Civilian Career.

Don't understand why they'd be worried that you'd have a second income.
I've worked at a place before where someone was sued for having a second income. I think it was because they didn't disclose it beforehand, or they violated a non-compete or something, but either way that made me very weary of walking that line.
 

The Abundant Man

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I've worked at a place before where someone was sued for having a second income. I think it was because they didn't disclose it beforehand, or they violated a non-compete or something, but either way that made me very weary of walking that line.
I'd sue them back. This is the United States of America.

It's common sense to say, "Just to let you guys know I'm making an app on the side. It might make me some money."
 

TheCj

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What if the salary was a contract for set amount to complete a project? Then you could hire people to work on it, you check over the work before submitting?

Not sure if applicable just a thought that came to mind.
 

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I've worked at a place before where someone was sued for having a second income. I think it was because they didn't disclose it beforehand, or they violated a non-compete or something, but either way that made me very weary of walking that line.
There isn't a general employment law principle that makes it illegal to have a second income outside of your W2 job. The situation you described is probably limited to the very specific facts of that situation. For example, if someone has an employment contract (which is very rare and generally only for senior execs) that says they must work exclusively for an employer and then violate it, it is going to be a problem.

In general, there is minimal legal risk in having income outside of your W2 job unless 1) you have an employment contract that specifically prohibits you from doing any work except for your W2 job; 2) you have an enforceable non-compete that prohibits you from competing with your employer (and your side income competes with your employer); 3) you are working on your side hustle with your employer's equipment or on your employer's time; 4) you make an affirmative representation that you won't do any work outside of that your W2 employment; or 5) your side income directly competes with your employer or is in the same space as your employer's business (regardless of whether you have a non-compete or not). This last one is going to be very fact specific. Competing space doesn't mean "apps" (which is a huge market), but something more like "fitness tracking apps that use GPS" or something like that.

My sense is that most (or at least many) W2 developers are working on something on the side. It is just part of the game and employers are generally going to be aware of it. Also, the developer market is pretty tight right now and talent is hard to find, so employers are wary of placing conditions on employment that will scare developers away.
 
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404profound

404profound

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There isn't a general employment law principle that makes it illegal to have a second income outside of your W2 job. The situation you described is probably limited to the very specific facts of that situation. For example, if someone has an employment contract (which is very rare and generally only for senior execs) that says they must work exclusively for an employer and then violate it, it is going to be a problem.

In general, there is minimal legal risk in having income outside of your W2 job unless 1) you have an employment contract that specifically prohibits you from doing any work except for your W2 job; 2) you have an enforceable non-compete that prohibits you from competing with your employer (and your side income competes with your employer); 3) you are working on your side hustle with your employer's equipment or on your employer's time; 4) you make an affirmative representation that you won't do any work outside of that your W2 employment; or 5) your side income directly competes with your employer or is in the same space as your employer's business (regardless of whether you have a non-compete or not). This last one is going to be very fact specific. Competing space doesn't mean "apps" (which is a huge market), but something more like "fitness tracking apps that use GPS" or something like that.

My sense is that most (or at least many) W2 developers are working on something on the side. It is just part of the game and employers are generally going to be aware of it. Also, the developer market is pretty tight right now and talent is hard to find, so employers are wary of placing conditions on employment that will scare developers away.
Thank you for that explanation. I may call an audible and contact this manager again.
 

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Thank you for that explanation. I may call an audible and contact this manager again.
Yeah, I definitely encourage you to do that. At least have a conversation. It can't hurt, right? Also, I'd encourage you in that conversation not too focus too much on disclosing that you are going to keep doing your own thing on the side. There isn't any affirmative duty to disclose. I'd only talk about your side hustle if it is right in your potential employer's wheelhouse (in which case, you'd probably want to steer clear of working for this employer anyway). If the employer specifically asks though, don't be deceitful.

As long as you do a good job and get their stuff done (and aren't competing directly with them), they likely won't care what you do on your own time. You aren't cheating them or being dishonest by working on a side business (as long as you get their stuff done). Good luck!
 
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404profound

404profound

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Desert of Desertion
Yeah, I definitely encourage you to do that. At least have a conversation. It can't hurt, right? Also, I'd encourage you in that conversation not too focus too much on disclosing that you are going to keep doing your own thing on the side. There isn't any affirmative duty to disclose. I'd only talk about your side hustle if it is right in your potential employer's wheelhouse (in which case, you'd probably want to steer clear of working for this employer anyway). If the employer specifically asks though, don't be deceitful.

As long as you do a good job and get their stuff done (and aren't competing directly with them), they likely won't care what you do on your own time. You aren't cheating them or being dishonest by working on a side business (as long as you get their stuff done). Good luck!
Thanks again! Another thing I'm wondering is if there are regional differences with this. I noticed you're on the West Coast, whereas I'm in DC. It seems like out west the expectations around this may be more relaxed than over here. That may be overthinking it, though.
 

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Kruiser

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Thanks again! Another thing I'm wondering is if there are regional differences with this. I noticed you're on the West Coast, whereas I'm in DC. It seems like out west the expectations around this may be more relaxed than over here. That may be overthinking it, though.
Put yourself in the potential employer's shoes. Do they care what you do in your free time? Generally no, as long as you do a good job for them and aren't directly competing.

This potential employer wants an app built. That is what they care about. They want a result.

If you do a good job building an app, they won't care what you do with your free time, whether that is playing video games, knitting, drinking, or making your own (non-competing) app.

I think you are getting thrown off because your own business is in the app space. But imagine if your business was real estate, ecom, or something else. The employer couldn't care because you wouldn't be competing. As long as your app is not in the same space as the one the potential employer wants you to build, you aren't competing and you don't need to worry.

I never practiced law on the east coast, but the general employment law principles aren't going to be any different. You can do what you want with your free time (including having your own business) as long as you aren't lying to or stealing from your employer.
 
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404profound

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Desert of Desertion
Put yourself in the potential employer's shoes. Do they care what you do in your free time? Generally no, as long as you do a good job for them and aren't directly competing.

This potential employer wants an app built. That is what they care about. They want a result.

If you do a good job building an app, they won't care what you do with your free time, whether that is playing video games, knitting, drinking, or making your own (non-competing) app.

I think you are getting thrown off because your own business is in the app space. But imagine if your business was real estate, ecom, or something else. The employer couldn't care because you wouldn't be competing. As long as your app is not in the same space as the one the potential employer wants you to build, you aren't competing and you don't need to worry.

I never practiced law on the east coast, but the general employment law principles aren't going to be any different. You can do what you want with your free time (including having your own business) as long as you aren't lying to or stealing from your employer.
Well I feel a lot better after hearing that. I guess I've been holding myself prisoner to some extent haha. Thanks again for taking the time to explain.
 

Bekit

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Well I feel a lot better after hearing that. I guess I've been holding myself prisoner to some extent haha. Thanks again for taking the time to explain.
If things do turn around and you get an offer of employment, I would read through whatever docusign contract they send you as part of the onboarding process.

I turned down signing a contract one time because the language in the contract basically said, "we own anything you create, even when it's not on company time, and even when it's on your own equipment." It left no wiggle room whatsoever, and I concluded, "No matter what, they're claiming to own every idea and every piece of content that I produce once I sign this document."

I said to the hiring manager that I wouldn't sign it, because we had already negotiated and agreed that I would be freelancing and running my own business on the side. The hiring manager claimed, "Oh no, that's not what it means, we don't enforce that, blah blah blah." I was like, "Good try, but I know better than to take someone's verbal word over what is clearly written down right in front of me." It's like buying a car and trying to hold the dealer to their verbal promises. Not gonna happen.

So yeah...watch out that they don't tell you one thing and then sneak it into the legal document anyway...because once you sign something, THEN you really could be in deep doo-doo.
 
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404profound

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Desert of Desertion
I went back to the manager to chat about my interest in the role. I explained that my intent is to continue pursuing my app on the side, while prioritizing the work for his team before my own.

He had other ideas. He explained that my employment on his team would be contingent on forking over my app to his company's portfolio. In his mind that was a way to offset the risk of hiring a developer with no prior professional experience.

So, that was the end of that conversation.

Chances are if he's that interested in gaining possession of my app I've produced something superior than what his "professional developers" have produced. This is an illustration of how an inability to delay gratification would have kept me in my current position even longer.
 
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Kruiser

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Good for you for reaching out to have the conversation. Now you know. Full speed ahead and good luck!
 

Bekit

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I went back to the manager to chat about my interest in the role. I explained that my intent is to continue pursuing my app on the side, while prioritizing the work for his team before my own.

He had other ideas. He explained that my employment on his team would be contingent on forking over my app to his company's portfolio. In his mind that was a way to offset the risk of hiring a developer with no prior professional experience.

So, that was the end of that conversation.

Chances are if he's that interested in gaining possession of my app I've produced something superior than what his "professional developers" have produced. This is an illustration of how an inability to delay gratification would have kept me in my current position even longer.
Wow.
#puke
That's worse than I imagined.

Standing ovation for sticking to your goals and not letting that temptation push you around.

Way to go!! That decision is a win that should be celebrated. No sidewalker would ever understand it, though.

What's missing in your marketing?
 

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