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MJ DeMarco

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you know, you don’t have to listen to your internet marketing guru who only makes 28k/year BUT you have to listen to people who have never opened a medical textbook in their life

@GIlman is a medical doctor. He posted a 50+ page lawsuit with dozens of medical citings from doctors in the field.

Did you read it?

Of course you didn't.

And I guarantee he has read more medical textbooks in his first year in med school than you've read your entire life. But I know, he's not on your "approved list" of experts which only your government leaders allow.

enjoy your confirmation bias

Enjoy your backfire effect and self-administered slavery.
 

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Wowza, this thread got lit up!

I’ll say this, all you guys who grew up in the USA and are using “communism” as your go to word of the day, know nothing of it.
 

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Wowza, this thread got lit up!

It should be renamed to "Fed Up With Your (Pandemic) Life? Here's Where You Can Vent."

I'm really sorry to hear about @Timmy C's terrible lockdown situation and all the people who are suffering now (for whatever C0VlD-related reason, whether they're pro or anti-VAXClNE) but I think that it's better to discuss solutions than fuel the outrage-driven discourse being pimped everywhere these days.

As for the thread, in August or September I might be heading to one of the smaller Balkan countries to check out how life is there now (Albania or maybe Montenegro, not sure yet). In the fall I'd like to visit some tropical Asian country (Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Malaysia?) but it depends on the restrictions.

But wherever I end up going, I'm definitely NOT going to a country that will have strict restrictions (I'm enjoying a relatively restriction-free summer in Poland now and don't want to go back to lockdown mask everywhere mode).

One geographical region that can be super interesting for the right person are the "stan" countries. I visited Kyrgyzstan a few years ago and in many aspects it felt like the American frontier. We rented an offroad car from a rental agency that was operated by, I believe, an American, and I'm pretty sure he was doing very well with his business (offroad adventures are very common in Kyrgyzstan and Kazachstan). I have no idea about the politics and business regulations but it all felt optional there anyway lol.
 
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Antifragile

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I read about economic history for fun. I have forgotten more about communism than you'll ever know, about anything.
Hmmm… good on you.
 

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"Fed Up With Your (Pandemic) Life? Here's Where You Can Vent."
We are talking about being fed up with our countries... The foundational reason for wanting to leave. C0VlD policy is at the top of many people's mind from more than just a business freedom sense, but from a personal freedom sense as well.

I think it is absolutely appropriate for the discussion. Here is what I have learned... Australia sucks a$$, and don't spend time there. That said... Thanks @Timmy C for the insight.

Thankfully, in Texas, I am living my life like normal, and have been pretty much the entire time, in defiance of mask orders and lockdowns initially, and now that the policies are gone.

C0VlD means nothing to me. I have wanted to move for economic reasons for longer than C0VlD has been around.
 
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@GIlman is a medical doctor. He posted a 50+ page lawsuit with dozens of medical citings from doctors in the field.

Did you read it?

Of course you didn't.

And I guarantee he has read more medical textbooks in his first year in med school than you've read your entire life. But I know, he's not on your "approved list" of experts which only your government leaders allow.



Enjoy your backfire effect and self-administered slavery.
First, that’s because I’ve never read a medical book that I’m not pretending to know more than people who spend their entire life in that. Just like I’m not pretending to know more of you in business. Sure, I’m not saying that everything you say in business is right, but I have to ARGUMENT on why you’re wrong, otherwise my opinion counts 0.

second, didn’t know about Gilman’s life and don’t want to be rude or anything but…why do we have to believe him and don’t believe the others thousands of medics that are saying the opposite? Because they are on your “non approved” list?

we have 99 medics that say one thing, and 1 medic that says the opposite, and we have to give credit to this (not Gilman, in general) contrarian (don’t know if it’s the right word, sorry) medic? Why? I’ll tell you why, because going against the crowd makes you feel more intelligent and special, so you find every excuse to do that.
 

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We are talking about being fed up with our countries... The foundational reason for wanting to leave. C0VlD policy is at the top of many people's mind from more than just a business freedom sense, but from a personal freedom sense as well.

I think it is absolutely appropriate for the discussion. Here is what I have learned... Australia sucks a$$, and don't spend time there. That said... Thanks @Timmy C for the insight.

Thankfully, in Texas, I am living my life like normal, and have been pretty much the entire time, in defiance of mask orders and lockdowns initially, and now that the policies are gone.

C0VlD means nothing to me. I have wanted to move for economic reasons for longer than C0VlD has been around.
In defiance? Have you read or seen on the news recently what's happening in places where the majority have done this? The hospitals are filling up and many people are getting very sick.

I think what you want is to live in a place without government and a place where you can trust those who have more expertise then yourself. We can create such a society. You can be part of that change but do the smart thing.
 

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we have 99 medics that say one thing, and 1 medic that says the opposite, and we have to give credit to this (not Gilman, in general) contrarian (don’t know if it’s the right word, sorry) medic? Why? I’ll tell you why, because going against the crowd makes you feel more intelligent and special, so you find every excuse to do that.
I consider myself definitely more paranoid than the average person. Given that the militaries around the world has taken the VAXClNE, and the governments around the world has the best intelligence gathering tools and operations, I think it is reasonable to conclude that whatever imperfections/failing the VAXClNE might be, there is no malicious intent in the VAXClNE.

As the trend progress and more facts and figures are shown, my view towards VAXClNE shifted from “wait to see” to “far more risky not to take the VAXClNE than to take it”.
 

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As the trend progress and more facts and figures are shown, my view towards VAXClNE shifted from “wait to see” to “far more risky not to take the VAXClNE than to take it”.

Name a single person that has had this new medical treatment in their system for 5 years.

We have ZERO data on long term effects for this, and are throwing caution to the wind and taking it on medical faith. Maybe it'll work out...
 

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First, that’s because I’ve never read a medical book that I’m not pretending to know more than people who spend their entire life in that. Just like I’m not pretending to know more of you in business. Sure, I’m not saying that everything you say in business is right, but I have to ARGUMENT on why you’re wrong, otherwise my opinion counts 0.

second, didn’t know about Gilman’s life and don’t want to be rude or anything but…why do we have to believe him and don’t believe the others thousands of medics that are saying the opposite? Because they are on yourBut “non approved” list?

we have 99 medics that say one thing, and 1 medic that says the opposite, and we have to give credit to this (not Gilman, in general) contrarian (don’t know if it’s the right word, sorry) medic? Why? I’ll tell you why, because going against the crowd makes you feel more intelligent and special, so you find every excuse to do that.
I am one of the many on this forum that knows @GIlman personally.

I'm one of the people that has health conditions that warrant taking the VAXClNE. Went down immediately to get it when it came available. Not afraid of it and wish the 70%+ of people would step in line.

But, when Gilman speaks, I do listen. He is a brilliant yet humble individual and I have never seen traits in him that would lead me to believe that he wants to be seen as special or smarter than anyone else. He is simply a fact driven person.
 

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Name a single person that has had this new medical treatment in their system for 5 years.

We have ZERO data on long term effects for this, and are throwing caution to the wind and taking it on medical faith. Maybe it'll work out...
We already have some C0VlD 19 patients developing long term complications since recovery.

And given new variants keep coming out, and multiple outbreaks and we are not going to get the whole world vaxinated anytime soon, the chances of you not vaxinated and yet not getting C0VlD eventually over the months and years is approaching zero, unless you stay at home all day and avoiding all contact.

At least you get to choose to have the vaccines on a day you are healthy. You don’t get to chose when the C0VlD virus hit you. If you are lucky you had good immune system at the point in time and fight it off with a low fever. If you are not and stressed then something worse might happen.

Choosing the VAXClNE is choosing unknown side effects in a controlled situation (softlanding) versus confirmed cases of side effects in an uncontrolled situation (hard-landing) when the virus hits an unvaxinated person, resulting possible permanent loss of taste or partial damage to lung capacity.
 

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Name a single person that has had this new medical treatment in their system for 5 years.

We have ZERO data on long term effects for this, and are throwing caution to the wind and taking it on medical faith. Maybe it'll work out...
It's not "Maybe it will work out.". It's "There is a high likelihood it will work out." I have heard numerous doctors say that negative issues with vaccines typically show up within two months. On the other hand RNA vaccines were not believed to work by almost everyone, even those in VAXClNE research for decades, up until last year.
 

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At least you get to choose to have the vaccines on a day you are healthy. You don’t get to chose when the C0VlD virus hit you. If you are lucky you had good immune system at the point in time and fight it off with a low fever. If you are not and stressed then something worse might happen.

Choosing the VAXClNE is choosing unknown side effects in a controlled situation (softlanding) versus confirmed cases of side effects in an uncontrolled situation (hard-landing) when the virus hits an unvaxinated person, resulting possible permanent loss of taste or partial damage to lung capacity.

The lack of long-term testing for this new treatment riles me up. I know a close family member that took Fosamax at their doctor's recommendation, as she was getting old and supposedly susceptible to osteoporosis.

Guess what? They told her to get off that drug.

She has since suffered extreme bone brittleness.

She has broken BOTH femurs in falls just while walking. She has broken her back. She has broken her wrist. She has two titanium rods in her now.

I have been around crowds and people almost since the beginning of this, in May 2020. I have not even been sick since 2019.

Do you really think injecting myself with a novel drug carries less risk than just continuing on as normal?

Fosamax was FDA approved in 1995. Guess what treatment isn't? How can you even quantify risk when you have zero data? Don't you think this is naive?

Do we even have metrics for who is more at-risk for the new treatments?

1627154376373.png
 

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The lack of long-term testing for this new treatment riles me up. I know a close family member that took Fosamax at their doctor's recommendation, as she was getting old and supposedly susceptible to osteoporosis.

Guess what? They told her to get off that drug.

She has since suffered extreme bone brittleness.

She has broken BOTH femurs in falls just while walking. She has broken her back. She has broken her wrist. She has two titanium rods in her now.

I have been around crowds and people almost since the beginning of this, in May 2020. I have not even been sick since 2019.

Do you really think injecting myself with a novel drug carries less risk than just continuing on as normal?

Fosamax was FDA approved in 1995. Guess what treatment isn't? How can you even quantify risk when you have zero data? Don't you think this is naive?

Do we even have metrics for who is more at-risk for the new treatments?

View attachment 39108
I am not saying VAXClNE is safe as you mught wish.

I am saying based on current evidence and trends VAXClNE are less harmful than C0VlD 19 the virus itself. And the current trend goes on almost all unvaxinated people who come across the virus eventually and get infected unless they stay at home all day.

If the virus is going away on its own only if we stay at home for a few month then clearly not taking the VAXClNE is the optimal choice. And clearly now this is not going to happen.
 

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I am one of the many on this forum that knows @GIlman personally.

I'm one of the people that has health conditions that warrant taking the VAXClNE. Went down immediately to get it when it came available. Not afraid of it and wish the 70%+ of people would step in line.

But, when Gilman speaks, I do listen. He is a brilliant yet humble individual and I have never seen traits in him that would lead me to believe that he wants to be seen as special or smarter than anyone else. He is simply a fact driven person.
Gilman argumented his position very well, so I wasn't referring to him in my previous post. It was more about who arbitrarily decide to go against the "common opinion" even if they know nothing about the topic.
 

SamuelTF

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I was just thinking the same thing, the level of disdain and hatred for world governments is at an all time high and people are getting fed up, from AU, to CAN, to Malyasia, to Italy, to the US -- people are tired of being managed like cattle.

When people say they want to leave, I say, where? Georgia? Estonia? Costa Rica? Mexico?

Who appreciates entrepreneurs and job providers?

Right now it appears the lessor-developed countries have more appeal.
Go to a less-developed country and become an entrepreneur. As your business grows watch your political interests grow as well. Watch as tyranny ensues further there as well. Congratulations, you are now on the winning side of that tyranny.

The point is, power corrupts inevitably. Although it could be much better, America is still a pretty great place to live
 

robertwills

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The lack of long-term testing for this new treatment riles me up. I know a close family member that took Fosamax at their doctor's recommendation, as she was getting old and supposedly susceptible to osteoporosis.

Guess what? They told her to get off that drug.

She has since suffered extreme bone brittleness.

She has broken BOTH femurs in falls just while walking. She has broken her back. She has broken her wrist. She has two titanium rods in her now.

I have been around crowds and people almost since the beginning of this, in May 2020. I have not even been sick since 2019.

Do you really think injecting myself with a novel drug carries less risk than just continuing on as normal?

Fosamax was FDA approved in 1995. Guess what treatment isn't? How can you even quantify risk when you have zero data? Don't you think this is naive?

Do we even have metrics for who is more at-risk for the new treatments?

View attachment 39108
Fosamax is not a VAXClNE.
 

GIlman

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First, that’s because I’ve never read a medical book that I’m not pretending to know more than people who spend their entire life in that. Just like I’m not pretending to know more of you in business. Sure, I’m not saying that everything you say in business is right, but I have to ARGUMENT on why you’re wrong, otherwise my opinion counts 0.

second, didn’t know about Gilman’s life and don’t want to be rude or anything but…why do we have to believe him and don’t believe the others thousands of medics that are saying the opposite? Because they are on your “non approved” list?

we have 99 medics that say one thing, and 1 medic that says the opposite, and we have to give credit to this (not Gilman, in general) contrarian (don’t know if it’s the right word, sorry) medic? Why? I’ll tell you why, because going against the crowd makes you feel more intelligent and special, so you find every excuse to do that.

I’m really not trying to convince anyone of anything. I’m simply trying to provide information and data that allows people to use their own critical thinking to arrive at a conclusion that makes sense to them. Hopefully when people read what I write they ask why is that? What does that mean? Why could that be right? Why could that be wrong? How does that relate to the understanding I have right now? Ultimately I hope everyone would dig in and inform themselves about more issues.

If you haven’t read that lawsuit, I would highly encourage it, because it lays out the areas with C0VlD and treatment where we have either gone horribly wrong and it’s well documented, or where there are concerning data or trends.

Do you have to accept every claim they make in it? No!! But if you reject something they say, ask yourself…on what basis am I rejecting this? What flaws are their in their assumption? What data or experience contradicts what they are re claiming? What are my biases that may make me accept or reject something whether it is true or not?

The thing about safety of anything though, it’s an indirect determination. You cannot test for safety per se, all you can do is watch for other problems and then try to link that problem to the treatment as a cause. Safety is the absence of bad outcomes. That is much harder to determine than it seems.

The issues with the C0VlD VAXClNE is that we have not done many of the studies that typically go into ALL fda approvals. Critical animal studies were skipped, the phases of trials were all compressed and combined. What’s the problem with that approach? Well in a typical experiment you design it to try and isolate the difference between study populations to one variable. How to you meaningfully compress that?

I have been hearing rumors of the VAXClNE receiving full FDA approval in the coming months. To me personally this “approval” will mean nothing, because I know all the steps that have been skipped. Certainly the typical phase 4 study, which takes years to complete (usually 2-5 years), and is intended to look for long term safety cannot have been completed - there is simply not enough time.

FDA approval should mean that a treatment has undergone the same rigorous examination and scrutiny that all treatments do. If C0VlD VAXClNE has not run the full FDA gauntlet, then what does the stamp of approval even mean? As an analogy if a car is typically crash tested from 10 directions but some car was only tested from one direction, would the safety rating mean the same thing to you? The point of safety testing is to be comprehensive so things don’t fall through the cracks.

There is enormous political pressure for the FDA to approve it, which seems to be the real driving force here - certainly it’s not the volumes of scientific data that accompany a typical approval.

From my own personal experience, I have seen a noticeable increase in the number of young people (20’s-40’s) coming in with stroke symptoms that began around the time the VAXClNE rolled out. In the past this was exceptionally rare in these age groups. Now it’s not uncommon for me to see 2-4 a day. Can I say this is related to the VAXClNE? No I can’t. It could be just as easily a complication of C0VlD infection itself. Or maybe some fact entirely different such as changes in referral pattern, which could mean that I SEE more cases but the actual # of cases in the population is steady. However, does this trend raise questions and concerns to me…yeah, until I have some well reasoned or data driven explanation.
 
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Antifragile

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I’m really not trying to convince anyone of anything. I’m simply trying to provide information and data that allows people to use their own critical thinking to arrive at a conclusion that makes sense to them. Hopefully when people read what I write they ask why is that? What does that mean? Why could that be right? Why could that be wrong? How does that relate to the understanding I have right now? Ultimately I hope everyone would dig in and inform themselves about more issues.

If you haven’t read that lawsuit, I would highly encourage it, because it lays out the areas with C0VlD and treatment where we have either gone horribly wrong and it’s well documented, or where there are concerning data or trends.

Do you have to accept every claim they make in it? No!! But if you reject something they say, ask yourself…on what basis am I rejecting this? What flaws are their in their assumption? What data or experience contradicts what they are re claiming? What are my biases that may make me accept or reject something whether it is true or not?

The thing about safety of anything though, it’s an indirect determination. You cannot test for safety per se, all you can do is watch for other problems and then try to link that problem to the treatment as a cause. Safety is the absence of bad outcomes. That is much harder to determine than it seems.

The issues with the C0VlD VAXClNE is that we have not done many of the studies that typically go into ALL fda approvals. Critical animal studies were skipped, the phases of trials were all compressed and combined. What’s the problem with that approach? Well in a typical experiment you design it to try and isolate the difference between study populations to one variable. How to you meaningfully compress that?

I have been hearing rumors of the VAXClNE receiving full FDA approval in the coming months. To me personally this “approval” will mean nothing, because I know all the steps that have been skipped. Certainly the typical phase 4 study, which takes years to complete (usually 2-5 years), and is intended to look for long term safety cannot have been completed - there is simply not enough time.

FDA approval should mean that a treatment has undergone the same rigorous examination and scrutiny that all treatments do. If C0VlD VAXClNE has not run the full FDA gauntlet, then what does the stamp of approval even mean? As an analogy if a car is typically crash tested from 10 directions but some car was only tested from one direction, would the safety rating mean the same thing to you? The point of safety testing is to be comprehensive so things don’t fall through the cracks.

There is enormous political pressure for the FDA to approve it, which seems to be the real driving force here - certainly it’s not the volumes of scientific data that accompany a typical approval.

From my own personal experience, I have seen a noticeable increase in the number of young people (20’s-40’s) coming in with stroke symptoms that began around the time the VAXClNE rolled out. In the past this was exceptionally rare in these age groups. Now it’s not uncommon for me to see 2-4 a day. Can I say this is related to the VAXClNE? No I can’t. It could be just as easily a complication of C0VlD infection itself. Or maybe something entirely different. But does that raise questions and concerns to me…yeah.
@GIlman
Do you mind clarifying if you are taking the VAXClNE or not? Thanks.
 

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Do you mind clarifying if you are taking the VAXClNE or not? Thanks.

I am 45, at this time I have elected not to take this particular VAXClNE. I based this on my lack of any underlying health conditions and age. If I was older and had some significant healh issues I would reconsider, and very well might have gotten the jab.

My kids 24 and 20 have not taken it either, but that is likewise a risk/benefit analysis.

In general I am not anti-vax at all. I have received a large number of vaccines over the years, because I have traveled all over the world and risked exposure to things many people haven’t. But those vaccines have undergone a very different testing than this one.

My personal belief with this VAXClNE, and all of medicine, is that everything is individual. You should consider the health and risk of the individual compared to the benefit and risk of the treatment. Then make a decision which risks you choose to make, treatment or no treatment. It’s not a one size fits all solution.
 

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Not getting the C0VlD v4kz does not equal being anti V4zx. I hate that they have made even asking questions about this as you being some crazy right wing conspiracy nut
For real, and it's more than just being labeled a crazy at this point. It's active opposition and open hostility sanctioned and approved by the govmint.

Many people are actively wishing for and celebrating 'anti-v4kzers' deaths on social media, rallying together against anyone with legitimate questions or concerns. Blaming all who opt out for 'causing peoples deaths' even without any evidence that they came in contact with people or even had anything to begin with.
 

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One friend died from C0VlD in Mai . His wive, who has been vaxinated in February, got it, too. She was not very ill and after 2 weeks all was over.

That may be only by accident, but I m not disappointed that my whole family, wife, sons and me, got vaxinated in spring.
 

Timmy C

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One friend died from C0VlD in Mai . His wive, who has been vaxinated in February, got it, too. She was not very ill and after 2 weeks all was over.

That may be only by accident, but I m not disappointed that my whole family, wife, sons and me, got vaxinated in spring.

Sounds absolutely terrible.

Very sorry to hear that.
 

robertwills

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Sounds absolutely terrible.

Very sorry to hear that.
That story is very common. It happened in my extended family. One survived. One almost died and one close family friend died, at age 82. Then two of my friend's friends died. One in the UK, one in the US. C0VlD is real. Please get vaxinated!
 

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What aspects of living in the UK are so insane that Florida is better?
The main ones for me are:
1) London has a culture that normalizes sharing a house with others even if you are in your 30s and 40s. I've gotten too old for this shit. For the money that I pay to share a house in London I can get a nice studio in Miami.
2) Even pepper spray is illegal in the UK. People are not allowed to defend themselves, another manifestation of a people that do not want personal responsibility and delegate it to the government.
3) UK lockdowns were no joke, but we endured them. Now, from September, VAXClNE passports for social events will come into play, indirectly mandating vaccination for younger people. For all its problems Florida has dealt with C0VlD 100 times better than the UK.

Things like weather and unchecked immigration are also big but don't fall under the "insanity" category
 

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The main ones for me are:
1) London has a culture that normalizes sharing a house with others even if you are in your 30s and 40s. I've gotten too old for this shit. For the money that I pay to share a house in London I can get a nice studio in Miami.
2) Even pepper spray is illegal in the UK. People are not allowed to defend themselves, another manifestation of a people that do not want personal responsibility and delegate it to the government.
3) UK lockdowns were no joke, but we endured them. Now, from September, VAXClNE passports for social events will come into play, indirectly mandating vaccination for younger people. For all its problems Florida has dealt with C0VlD 100 times better than the UK.

Things like weather and unchecked immigration are also big but don't fall under the "insanity" category
The weather in London in the summer is fantastic. Sunny, not hot, no humidity. In the winter it's mild but yes dark and rainy. Florida year round = hot, very humid (sticky), mosquitos, snakes, sharks in the ocean. It's the humidity that ruins it for me.
 

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