Fear & Trembling is the Best Place to Start

[Panos Daras]

You may have heard it said that it’s not good to try and do business from a place of desperation. That negative emotions like fear, anger, shame are weights that pull you down. That first you need to get rid of them, and only then you can be successful.

My message is the exact opposite. Whatsoever dark and negative emotions you’re experiencing — they are what will make you successful. I still remember that story from “How to Sell Anything to Anybody” by Joe Girard who is still in the Guiness Book for the greatest salesman of all time.

It was about how he made his first sale in a commission only job, because he was DESPERATE to get food for his family. And he did it without any skill and without any system. It was pure desperation — if memory serves me right, he said he imagined the customer’s head being a bag full of groceries, which is what he needed for his family.

Once you learn to leverage negative emotions to drive you forward, you’ll find that they are the BEST motivators. Much better and much stronger than positive emotions.

So be thankful for your darkness. It will be the key to your success — just learn how to use it FOR you rather than AGAINST you.

This is not what research suggests. That being said, from my personal experience acknowledging a negative emotion can be a positive experience:
Sources:

1. Dohrenwend, B. P. (2000). The role of adversity and stress in psychopathology: Some evidence and its implications for theory and research. Journal of Health and Social Behavior, 41(1), 1-19. DOI: 10.2307/2676357
2. McEwen, B. S. (2008). Central effects of stress hormones in health and disease: Understanding the protective and damaging effects of stress and stress mediators. European Journal of Pharmacology, 583(2-3), 174-185. DOI: 10.1016/j.ejphar.2007.11.071
3. Felitti, V. J., Anda, R. F., Nordenberg, D., Williamson, D. F., Spitz, A. M., Edwards, V., ... & Marks, J. S. (1998). Relationship of childhood abuse and household dysfunction to many of the leading causes of death in adults: The Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) Study. American Journal of Preventive Medicine, 14(4), 245-258. DOI: 10.1016/S0749-3797(98)00017-8
4. Maslach, C., Schaufeli, W. B., & Leiter, M. P. (2001). Job burnout. Annual Review of Psychology, 52(1), 397-422. DOI: 10.1146/annurev.psych.52.1.397

 

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[Sole]

I guess some people are motivated by negative emotions and some don't. It also depends on personal tolerance to such emotions.

But I wonder Black Dragon, why do you answer so seriously when people here are mostly trolling you?

 

[Skroob]

I dont understand how he is setting back computers? Microsoft isnt the only operating system either, with apple now having more market, and AI seems to be a breakthrough

Oh let's see... He's not setting computers back now, because he ran Microsoft in the 90s. When he was running Microsoft, he used his market position to smother any kind of competition in any area of computing, a strategy known as "embrace, extend, extinguish". By attempting to force all changes to come from his company so he could control it, he stalled out a lot of potential innovation and the industry took about 20 years and a paradigm shift into mobile to really recover from. "Microsoft" isn't the only OS and never was, sure, but "Apple" does not have more market than anyone. Windows has more install base on desktop, and Android has more on mobile. AI has been getting progressively better and has taken a big step in the last 6 months, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Bill Gates, who left his CEO job almost 20 years ago and hasn't been relevant in the industry since.

But please, tell the guy who lived through the MS-World of the 90s as a Mac user more about what a great guy Bill Gates is.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Success and happiness are different, haven’t I been saying that from the start? Eagles fly alone. It’s lonely at the top. If you want to be the richest man on the planet, you have to give up the things that normal people enjoy. That’s what it takes to achieve that sort of success right? You can’t be out with your mates at the pub watching the World Cup when your name is Bill Gates. It’s simply not possible for you to even go out on the street by yourself!

So I agree with you. Giving up and surrendering is essential to happiness and to a well-functioning society. You are absolutely correct. But the guys who become the Bill Gateses of this world, they do just the opposite. They sacrifice all these goods for their success.

Now I’m not saying that that’s the life I want. Or the life you should want. But it’s what they do. And why they are such peak perfomers while the rest of us are not.

It’s useful to understand that the road to the top and the road to happiness diverge. If you want to be happy, fine. Be happy. But don’t also expect to become Bill Gates, because you’ll be disappointed. And the difference is that one takes FULL CONTROL of everything, and the other balances control and surrender. Balance isn’t in the vocabulary of the peak performer!

Ok I think I got you.

Our hearts contain a large quantity of energy. Whether that emotional energy is described as fear, desperation, anger, greed or courage, faith, hope, giving.. doesn’t matter. All of those emotions can be harnessed, controlled and then ridden to our ultimate goal - like a good horse.

If you aren’t in control of our emotions then our rational selves won’t be able to lead the rest of us anywhere. (I actually believe in a tripartite description of humans but I don’t want to get in to that here.)

Is that basically your point?

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

@Primeperiwinkle I think it's better if we can stick to the original topic. You two clearly disagree with each other and this is unlikely to change any time soon.

I think that the core idea is that not all negative emotions are inherently bad. Pain can be a very strong indicator that it's time to change.

Perhaps that's why on the forum we have been discussing about experiencing an FTE, and use it as a catalyst for improvement.

GOLD! - MINDSET - FTE - CHAT - Have you had your "FTE"? (Or Was it an FTM?!)

So this is an open call for everyone to share their "FTE" story, otherwise known as their "F*ck This Event." A "F*ck this event" is an incident in your life that pushes you over the ledge of a SCRIPTED existence. It is a pejorative "I've had it!" or a "I can't live like this!" moment that...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

I’ve been on the original topic this entire time. Really. I’m just ENTP and I enjoy having cross currents of thought. I don’t usually engage just to troll people. BD is wicked smart. I have a gut instinct that he could help me with something but I’m not entirely sure whether he’ll help me by accident, on purpose, by his mistakes or his successes.

Basically I’m having an open-ended interesting conversation with someone who can handle disagreements. If he wants me to stop or back off he can tell me himself. He’s a grown-up.

 

[heavy_industry]

Basically I’m having an open-ended interesting conversation with someone who can handle disagreements. If he wants me to stop or back off he can tell me himself. He’s a grown-up.

I did not say this because I am trying to defend OP. He is articulated enough to do it himself.

The problem is that as of recently there have been a number of threads that have been completely derailed by endless disagreement that did not lead to any conclusion, which is very annoying for all the readers.

Pretty much any argument can be settled in less than 5 posts. If not, we can agree to disagree and that's the end of the story.

If he wants me to stop or back off he can tell me himself.

He already did, twice. And very politely:

Please keep the thread on topic.

Now let’s get back on topic.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Ok I think I got you.

Our hearts contain a large quantity of energy. Whether that emotional energy is described as fear, desperation, anger, greed or courage, faith, hope, giving.. doesn’t matter. All of those emotions can be harnessed, controlled and then ridden to our ultimate goal - like a good horse.

If you aren’t in control of our emotions then our rational selves won’t be able to lead the rest of us anywhere. (I actually believe in a tripartite description of humans but I don’t want to get in to that here.)

Is that basically your point?

I can smell a Platonist, which doesn’t surprise me given that you’re a devout Christian right?

I have greatly enjoyed Plato’s Gorgias + Republic, and Xenophon’s Hiero on topics related to power/success and morality/happiness.

It’s hard for me to answer your question, because that’s not exactly what I mean.

Should the rational part lead? Plato certainly thought so… And his criticism of the Sophists was essentially that their philosophy is self-contradictory, which is true. If you try to take my philosophy or even fastlane and advocate it for the majority of human beings you’d create a terrible society.

For a society to function, we can’t all desire to be kings. That would lead to internal contradictions, since by definition not everyone can be a king. That would be chaos, not order. Some of us need to be slaves, others regular citizens, some poor, some rich and yes, some of us, even emperors.

Do I think Plato’s vision works? No — putting reason at the head is trying to inject a stability into the world that simply isn’t there. And reason, as Nietzsche correctly pointed out, is self-destructive and leads to nihilism ultimately, and the proverbial death of God — which it would be better to understand as the forgetfulness of God.

Machiavelli’s response to Plato would be that philosophy is self-contradictory ultimately and it has no stability because the world is always changing and hence always self-contradictory. What worked yesterday, no longer works today. Heraclitus’s everchanging flux. Machiavelli would say “I can’t tell you if you should be a beast or a man, because sometimes you should be a beast, sometimes you should be a man — a definitive answer cannot be provided”.

We can create a philosophy based on stability, but ultimately it collapses when exposed to reality.

Remember back in Plato’s Gorgias, the scene where Calicles asks Socrates if he’d choose life over the Truth, and Socrates makes his final allegiance to the Truth, saying he’d rather die than betray the Truth, because it is a bigger loss to do otherwise? Calicles from that point forward is rendered silent, his only “rebuke” is “you’re crazy Socrates, you’re idealistic, we live in the real world, your friends may need you, you may need to make all these compromises to stay alive, etc” But Socrates is uncompromising on the point. There is something very human in Callicles at that point, that untempered devotion to Truth (and Reason) will kill. And likewise something very Godly about Socrates. I think that tension between reason and passion needs to be maintained.

I think the most important part of the soul is spiritedness — what the Greeks called thumos. Thumos can subdue rampant pleasure-seeking/desire, and can also direct reason towards the achievement of artistic goals.

It is spiritedness, not reason that causes you to aspire to wealth or aspire to God. Spiritedness is essentially your will, not your reason. And this even makes sense according to Christian teaching… because what is the sin of malice (worst possible kind of sin), but knowing through your reason that something is evil, but choosing the evil nevertheless? Evil understood in the classical sense as choosing a lower good over a higher good… for example, material wealth, over saving someone’s life.

This was Christianity’s great insight over Plato. You can know something is evil, and still choose the evil. Plato would say that’s impossible! If you truly knew, you wouldn’t choose it, it’s only ignorance that makes you sin. Christianity adds the all important component of will, which is at the foundation of free choice ultimately.

So to attempt to clarify what I mean… I mean that people should cultivate the spirited part of their soul which will allow them to maintain the tension between reason on the one hand, and desire/pleasure on the other. Using your negative emotions for strength is cultivating your thumos.

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

I have greatly enjoyed Plato’s Gorgias + Republic, and Xenophon’s Hiero on topics related to power/success and morality/happiness.

It’s hard for me to answer your question, because that’s not exactly what I mean.

Should the rational part lead? Plato certainly thought so… And his criticism of the Sophists was essentially that their philosophy is self-contradictory, which is true. If you try to take my philosophy or even fastlane and advocate it for the majority of human beings you’d create a terrible society.

For a society to function, we can’t all desire to be kings. That would lead to internal contradictions, since by definition not everyone can be a king. That would be chaos, not order. Some of us need to be slaves, others regular citizens, some poor, some rich and yes, some of us, even emperors.

Do I think Plato’s vision works? No — putting reason at the head is trying to inject a stability into the world that simply isn’t there. And reason, as Nietzsche correctly pointed out, is self-destructive and leads to nihilism ultimately, and the proverbial death of God — which it would be better to understand as the forgetfulness of God.

Machiavelli’s response to Plato would be that philosophy is self-contradictory ultimately and it has no stability because the world is always changing and hence always self-contradictory. What worked yesterday, no longer works today. Heraclitus’s everchanging flux. Machiavelli would say “I can’t tell you if you should be a beast or a man, because sometimes you should be a beast, sometimes you should be a man — a definitive answer cannot be provided”.

We can create a philosophy based on stability, but ultimately it collapses when exposed to reality.

Remember back in Plato’s Gorgias, the scene where Calicles asks Socrates if he’d choose life over the Truth, and Socrates makes his final allegiance to the Truth, saying he’d rather die than betray the Truth, because it is a bigger loss to do otherwise? Calicles from that point forward is rendered silent, his only “rebuke” is “you’re crazy Socrates, you’re idealistic, we live in the real world, your friends may need you, you may need to make all these compromises to stay alive, etc” But Socrates is uncompromising on the point. There is something very human in Callicles at that point, that untempered devotion to Truth (and Reason) will kill. And likewise something very Godly about Socrates. I think that tension between reason and passion needs to be maintained.

I think the most important part of the soul is spiritedness — what the Greeks called thumos. Thumos can subdue rampant pleasure-seeking/desire, and can also direct reason towards the achievement of artistic goals.

It is spiritedness, not reason that causes you to aspire to wealth or aspire to God. Spiritedness is essentially your will, not your reason. And this even makes sense according to Christian teaching… because what is the sin of malice (worst possible kind of sin), but knowing through your reason that something is evil, but choosing the evil nevertheless? Evil understood in the classical sense as choosing a lower good over a higher good… for example, material wealth, over saving someone’s life.

This was Christianity’s great insight over Plato. You can know something is evil, and still choose the evil. Plato would say that’s impossible! If you truly knew, you wouldn’t choose it, it’s only ignorance that makes you sin. Christianity adds the all important component of will, which is at the foundation of free choice ultimately.

So to attempt to clarify what I mean… I mean that people should cultivate the spirited part of their soul which will allow them to maintain the tension between reason on the one hand, and desire/pleasure on the other. Using your negative emotions for strength is cultivating your thumos.

Love it. You’re a rockstar in this. I’m tracking with you now.

So last week I was reading about the tripartite state of man, not just soul but spirit (thumos indeed.) then soul, then body.

I didn’t want to allude to that until I had your bearing though. I agree the spirit should lead with soul (intellect and emotion) next then body last of all.

If you agree with all of that then why would leaning into fear and trembling be the best option.. unless you’ve been quoting scripture and I just assumed you weren’t a Christian? Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

 

[Black_Dragon43]

If you agree with all of that then why would leaning into fear and trembling be the best option.. unless you’ve been quoting scripture and I just assumed you weren’t a Christian?

I aspire to be a Christian, but I wouldn’t call myself one. That’s a very high standard, which I’m not sure I can meet.

I am quoting Scripture and also Kierkegaard’s book titled Fear & Trembling which is a series of different interpretations of the scene in Genesis when God asks Abraham to take his son Isaac to Mt. Moriah and offer him in sacrifice. It’s about the necessary uncertainty and negative emotions that are part of life’s journey — integrating those and using them.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

I aspire to be a Christian, but I wouldn’t call myself one. That’s a very high standard, which I’m not sure I can meet.

I am quoting Scripture and also Kierkegaard’s book titled Fear & Trembling which is a series of different interpretations of the scene in Genesis when God asks Abraham to take his son Isaac to Mt. Moriah and offer him in sacrifice. It’s about the necessary uncertainty and negative emotions that are part of life’s journey — integrating those and using them.

I knew I liked you for some reason!!

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

Ok I got the book. What part do I fast forward to? You now I’m going to lose interest if you don’t candy coat this thing for me. I’m missing something important.

I will write a panegyric!

I love how he’s putting mother stuff into every chapter! Awwww

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

It’s very hard to point to a specific part. Most of my thoughts have been developed over years of reading through the Western philosophical cannon and thinking about these issues.

For Fear & Trembling, I recommend reading it in order. It may seem weird at first, the story is told from the internal perspective of Abraham, what he could have been experiencing in those moments. It’s good to read and then reflect on it and come up with your own thoughts!

Ok, will do.

But riddle me this. Do you think “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” could apply to every type of salvation experience? And then the next question would be which scripture (or truth) balances it out when we’re discussing it’s connection to business? Surely I have to help myself first.. but do you think this goes as deep as like predestination..?

Do you choose business and then like Goethe says, that boldness is met by the universe with open doors?

*happy sigh


THERE’S A WHOLE SECTION ON POETRY! I’m hugging you now. Just stand still and take it!

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

No, not one shall be forgotten who was great in the world. But each was great in his own way, and each in proportion to the greatness of that which he loved. For he who loved himself became great by himself, and he who loved other men became great by his selfless devotion, but he who loved God became greater than all. Everyone shall be remembered, but each became great in proportion to his expectation. One became great by expecting the possible, another by expecting the eternal, but he who expected the impossible became greater than all.

Excerpt from: "Fear and Trembling" by Soren Kierkegaard. Scribd.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Read this book on Scribd: Fear and Trembling by Soren Kierkegaard - Ebook | Scribd

*happy dance

Hey dude? Thank you.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Do you think “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” could apply to every type of salvation experience?

This goes into deep theological issues and will get us very far off-topic. I will just say one small thing on this: I think that so long as you are alive, there will always be "fear and trembling" because you live in tension... between this world and God's kingdom. And that tension cannot be extinguished while you're still alive, hence every salvation experience occurs in that context. Please bear in mind that my knowledge of theology is minimal compared to my knowledge of say philosophy, so consider me a dilettante in those matters, rather than an expert.

Now let's return to being on topic in the thread!

 

[heavy_industry]

Listen I am desperate. I get down on my knees every day to service our lord in prayer

I would highly recommend that you watch this video by @MJ DeMarco
It's an excellent step-by-step strategy to get out of your current situation and move towards a better future.

Perhaps it's time to postpone the millions, and focus on getting the basics right first. Wealth and freedom is going to be a gradual process, and there are very few people that can skip the foundational steps.

Keep your head up. Put one foot in front of the other.
There are clear skies ahead.

---

@Black_Dragon43 's take on this mindset is very interesting, but I think that he can manage to pull it off because he is highly intelligent, has a solid skillset that was built over the course of a decade, and may have access to other resources that you currently lack.

I am operating a lot more on the bright side (most of the time).
I find that the most empowering and sustainable emotions in the long run are: curiosity, joy, and wonder.

Anytime I learn something interesting or work on a meaningful project, I feel like I am a kid once again.

This feeling of awe and wonder is what has drawn me to entrepreneurship.

 

[Isaac Odongo]

So you need to verify my business stuff, because you want me to be your master, because I’m more successful than you right?

Why can’t you just think for yourself and judge ideas based on their own merits, rather than on who comes up with them?

If I’m successful or not shouldn’t matter to you. It’s the same thing that people obsessed with testimonials and case studies think.

Let me tell you, case studies are worse than useless. I’d never look at a case study or testimonial. I’m just not interested in them.

Because I use my own brain and logic to make decisions, I don’t surrender my decision-making powers to a guru because he’s more successful than me.

That would be retarded. You’re smart enough to assess ideas using your own mind, not someone’s success. People can be very successful and very DUMB — it’s not a rule that being successful makes you smart. It doesn’t! In fact, being dumb is usually an advantage as we were discussing in the IQ thread…

This is why you guys struggle… if Elon Musk comes and tells you some bullshit you buy it, because it’s Elon Musk. You’re dumb, easy to manipulate! If Elon Musk comes and feeds me some bullshit I’ll tell him “you’re retarded Elon”. Because being rich doesn’t mean he’s right.

Elon Musk knows the process.
Bill Gates knows the process.
Warren Buffet knows the process.
I would study what they do. Why they do it.

You are discussing a bizarre topic. Maybe you need to provide some kind of backup to your claims.

I did this
I did that
I do this
I do that

Won't be enough. If you provide data beyond that, we will understand you.

 

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[tigerbalm]

But I don’t have any of the other traits. I never drink, never did drugs, never stole anything etc etc.

Eat you some drugs m'boy. Preferably mushrooms. Thank me later.

 

[Wombat]

Oh let's see... He's not setting computers back now, because he ran Microsoft in the 90s. When he was running Microsoft, he used his market position to smother any kind of competition in any area of computing, a strategy known as "embrace, extend, extinguish". By attempting to force all changes to come from his company so he could control it, he stalled out a lot of potential innovation and the industry took about 20 years and a paradigm shift into mobile to really recover from. "Microsoft" isn't the only OS and never was, sure, but "Apple" does not have more market than anyone. Windows has more install base on desktop, and Android has more on mobile. AI has been getting progressively better and has taken a big step in the last 6 months, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Bill Gates, who left his CEO job almost 20 years ago and hasn't been relevant in the industry since.

But please, tell the guy who lived through the MS-World of the 90s as a Mac user more about what a great guy Bill Gates is.

I'll give @Droopynips the benefit of the doubt here. I teach young adults I.T. and it is surprising that many young people, even those interested in I.T don't know about Gate's business practices. I guess the passing of time and lots of PR $$$ really can white-wash history.

 

[Albert KOUADJA]

So be thankful for your darkness. It will be the key to your success — just learn how to use it FOR you rather than AGAINST you.

Yes,agree to this.

We can turn our anger into our advantage. Negative emotions can be controlled and used in our favor. If they are used to fight injustice, evil to improve things and not to take revenge. There one can accomplish marvelously. But otherwise, it's counterproductive.

Our anger is our why. And when it's strong enough, nothing can stop you from finding an answer to your why.

 

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[piano]

Heya @Black_Dragon43 !
I've been looking into Kierkegaard recently and am quite intriguged. Would you recommend reading Fear and Trembling or another work and would it also be of practical use?

Also a question to your orignal post in this thread: How exactly did your mindset form? Through Kierkegaard? Experience? Something else?

Have a good day!

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Would you recommend reading Fear and Trembling or another work and would it also be of practical use?

Recommend it for your own culture and spiritual development, YES, for imminent practical purposes, like most works of philosophy, probably not. Philosophy is good at helping you UNDERSTAND things better, not necessarily CHANGE them.

Also a question to your orignal post in this thread: How exactly did your mindset form? Through Kierkegaard? Experience? Something else?

It was mostly the realization that behaviors matter more than thoughts, and thoughts are usually not in your control. It's easier to control your behaviors, than to control your thoughts. As a result, because you can't control your thinking, you need to learn to channel both negative and positive thoughts, which occur largely without your control, and solely as a function of your environment and circumstances towards positive endeavors.

The big error for many is thinking they have to change their thoughts, THEN they'll change their behaviors. But it's actually the other way around... thoughts don't shape behaviors, behaviors shape thoughts.

Read this thread @piano : https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...out-changing-your-thoughts-or-mindset.106227/