F*ck it, i'm learning to code

[csalvato]

@SeanLewis What sort of app are you wanting to create?

This is a very important question.

You need to start with a project in mind, or this will be very painful. Even if you are unsure of it being a marketable product. If you have no ideas, that's fine.

We can always post up some for you.

 

[alexkuzmov]

I'm just wondering how this would work in the real world?

Say I have an idea for a mobile app, however I have zero experience in coding, how can I use a tutorial to answer specific questions, when I have one overriding question which is; how do I code an app?

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm genuinely interested how you create this shift in mindset that you mention. I've tried that approach, however because I lack some basic knowledge, I have found myself just simply following tutorials.

I guess what I'm asking is; at what point will I know when to shift my approach to learning code?

I assume your question is hypotetical.
In your described case it sounds like you would need a consult, or several.
That will save you time and money, if you are hell-bent on coding the app yourself.

My advice is to prepare these and discuss them with a experienced dev:

1. Description/Document for the project. What does it do? Who will use it? What functions will it have? What data will it collect(emails, names, age, images, etc.)? What data will it contain(do you need a complex Database)?
2. Mockups for the project
- Photoshop if you can
- Paint, if wireframes will be enough to explain
- Flowchart Maker & Online Diagram Software is pretty good for mockups too (although draw.io is not for mockups generally)
3. What is the bare minimum to deploy the project? What minimum/core functions can you get away with and still have a product/service to sell?

If you have no experience coding and/or basic skills, I`d suggest consulting with a dev so you can get directions.

 

[Andy Black]

Thats like asking, how long is a piece of string?

What's better, ford or chevy?

Apple or Mac?

If I dug down deep to try to find a good answer, you can learn both in 1 year.

But I know from experience there are still a % of people that have issues running JS in their browser. That's enough for me to stick to PHP for webpages.

People ask these a lot too:

• Google Ads or Facebook Ads?
• Wordpress or HTML/CSS?
• Thinkific or Teachable?
• Leadpages, Unbounce, or Thrivethemes?
• Basecamp or Asana?
• MailCheat(Chimp), ConvertKit, or ActiveCampaign?
• Zendesk or Helpscout?
• Freshbooks or Quickbooks?

The answer @csalvato gave above works for all of them.

Pick the easiest for you to get started with, and get started.

“You can’t steer a parked car.” (James Schramko)

 

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[csalvato]

• Work on multiple smaller projects or a bigger one
• When should i start using a framework?
• how do i know when i'm good enough to get hired?

Work on multiple smaller projects or a bigger one

Make a list of project ideas. Keep them in a note or journal somewhere. When you have a new one, add it to the list.​

​

Pick just one of those ideas as your "main project" as you go through tutorials. It's ok if this isn't what you ultimately build, but being able to relate what you're learning to something you personally care about is important. For example, when I was learning RoR, the project I was interested in was making a Search Word Creator for teacher's classroom activities. That product never came to market, but having that in mind while learning was invaluable.​

​

When should i start using a framework?

The sooner the better, but everyone's different. I suggest taking Ruby on Rails Tutorial to start. If it feels like it's way too ahead of where you're at, no problem. You can always go back to it later. I always try to "start at the end" and see if I need to backpedal and learn something else first. Most times I surprise myself, and I don't need to do a lot of prep to learn what it is I actually want to learn. We're all a lot more capable than we think.​

​

how do i know when i'm good enough to get hired?

When you have a small working web app that you've created yourself, that actually does something, that you can demonstrate and talk through. With some previous coding experience, this took me about 2 weeks.​

​

You may also need to prepare for the tech interview process: Cracking the Coding Interview via HackerRank - YouTube​

 

[SeanLewis]

Update

It's been almost 2 months of actively pursuing this and i have to say, the more i learn the more fun it gets. I'm not tracking my time anymore, but i'd guesstimate a solid 3-4h average per day of putting in the work.

Being able to add a backend to my previous projects has been eye opening, and i've gained so much confidence regarding actually creating my own software projects in the future.(more on this later)

Since my last update i've delved into node.js and mongoDB. Before this i though the whole "backend" was some great mystery, but now i realise it's not actually that difficult.

If you read my thread about moving out, you'll now that i'm... moving out.

Having only a month left of living at home, i need to make to most of it. I'm going to spend the better part of this month learning "React" so that once i've moved out i can begin working on my REAL project right away.

Monetizing this skill

I've started to plan what sort of web app i'm going to build, this isn't just some site for my portfolio. I'm building this as a fastlane venture.

I've been wondering where to take this thread. Because just "learning to code" can take forever, it's not like it has some final test, you have to actually use it.

Thats why i've decided that this thread will serve to document the whole process, not only the learning. But actually taking this skill and building something that will serve the market.

My next update will go more into planning the MVP, and putting my ideas under the magnifying glass that is CENTS.

 

[Kraelog]

February has been a month of uncertainty.

I’ve been learning ReactJS and progress has been slow and it's been getting harder to drag myself in front of the computer, not because i find it difficult but because my intentions have not been clear.

I’ve had to take a step back, I've had to really look at where I am in life.

I have a great idea for a Saas business. Businesses in this industry are currently paying tens of thousands of dollars and spending months doing what this could help them do in days if not hours.

The thing is..

I’m not sure which order to do things in, this is where I need your advice.

On one hand this project is a true fastlane venture, this business aligns perfectly with my 10 year vision.

On the other hand this will take a long time to develop so it might be smarter to build a smaller portfolio project(to show my skill), start getting some work and actually making some money first. Then once I have some more experience and disposable income I can focus on my fastlane venture.

What are your thoughts? Am i being foolish or realistic?

I noticed from your posts that you started learning about programming just a few months ago. Now, it is very commendable that you have a long term vision and an idea for a possible product, but in the short & medium-term I would advice patience and baby-steps.

Personally I have been programming full-time for about two years and I'm only really scratching the surface of what is possible. A fully fledged SAAS product is a humongous project which can take more than a year for an experienced developer.

I would suggest that your current goal should be to get employed as a developer, so that you get paid while learning.

So:

- Build a portfolio
- Get employed as a developer
- Spend X months/years building your skills
- Develop your idea's into MVP's and try to find a golden egg.

 

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[alexkuzmov]

I might lose my job.

I work in a department store(major chain) and long story short I've taken over my manager's duties while he is on sick leave (a couple of weeks).

Today I was in a meeting with the other managers and the head of the store. I found out that there will be major downsizing and all stores are to be run at a minimum expense.

Basically none of the contracts of part time workers are valid anymore and they can let anyone go and they don’t have to let you work all your hours(this comes from the state so perfectly legal).

Technically I only have a part time employment so hearing this was like a knife in the gut. Especially just having moved out for the first time a month ago.

So best case scenario i will get to work between 0-80 hours a month or worst case i’ll be let go with nothing.(not even sure which one is the worst case tbh)

This was the last drop for me.

There really isn’t any safety in a regular job. I guess my dumb a$$ had to go through it to actually believe it.

Before this I was thinking about a plan for investing my money smartly with this market crash, and now it’s all about how long i’ll be able to pay rent if the worst happens.

This is my own fault, I've put myself in this situation and I need to fix it.

Friday to Sunday I'm off from work(might be longer), I'm gonna finish my full stack portfolio project to prove I know what I'm doing(to myself and others) and then I’m gonna do whatever it takes to get freelance work.

I need cash and I need it yesterday, the whole spending a couple of months building a saas is just not gonna work now.

Time to hustle.

(I use the MERN stack if you need anything..)

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Good Luck

 

[SeanLewis]

Any resources you'd recommend to learn these?

Check out the odin projects "web dev 101" it's free and i think it's the reason i've learned so much in this little time. They teach you how to actually think like a programmer instead of just teaching you some stuff about programming.

 

[Deleted78083]

I know this isn't much of an update but life had me sidetracked for a bit, but now i'm back on the grind.

Good luck, there is a nice quote from Jack Ma that is always interesting when hustling: "today is difficult, tomorrow will be even harder, but the day after tomorrow will be beautiful. Most people will die tomorrow night." Don't be most people.

 

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[SEBASTlAN]

Nice. I'm considering Python for 2020.

 

[S.Y.]

Thanks to both @eliquid and @csalvato .

This should be extracted in it is own thread :

There's a running theme here with this question that's popping up over and over again. Have you noticed it?

People with no experience in software keep asking what language to learn as though it's a massive key to unlock the universe and their full potential.

The people who are making a great wage from software (either in a high paying day job, from their companies, or both) keep giving the same response.

It doesn't matter.

Quite literally, just pick one and run with it. Once you learn your first one, you can learn another one in ~2-3 weeks, at most.

In weightlifting circles, Mark Rippetoe has made this chart on The Novice Effect very popular. You'll find it carries over to most domains, including software:

View attachment 29107

To put it simply, when you're first learning you will be learning so much every single day, even though your training capacity (your ability to focus, or your body's ability to adapt to the new training) may be small. As you get more proficient, you don't learn as much within that domain anymore. But if you enter a new domain, you still have The Novice Effect there.

Even if that chart makes no sense to you here's the quick and dirty...

Just pick one.

Find one that you think looks interesting to you and start learning it. Ideally, have a project in mind. I worked with one person who DM'd me to find a small project he can focus on while he learns – a proposal generator for his cleaning business.

Quite literally, writing all these languages on a wall and throwing a dart at them is absolutely acceptable.

To make a slightly more informed decision:

1. Pick a language that has a tutorial or course that you find easy and intuitive. I find The Rails Tutorial to be amazing for beginners in both Ruby AND Rails. There's also Dive Into Python which made Python very accessible for me. The first language I learned was Java from a textbook + teacher in High School (after learning HTML/CSS to make a website on AngelFire when I was 10)
2. Pick a language where you have a mentor. If @eliquid said he'd be happy to help answer questions on programming for you, then you should learn PHP because he can help you with that most easily. For people that I mentor, it's either Ruby or JavaScript, because I work with those every day.

Sidenote: learn HTML + CSS at the same time. Those aren't software languages (HTML is a markup language, and CSS is a style sheet language), but pretty much every software developer in 2019 should know the basics of how they work. Learning the basic takes, like, a week or two at most. Just knowing HTML/CSS can get you fit to earn cash after those 1-3 weeks of learning (something @Fox can attest to).

 

[SeanLewis]

Week 1

It seems this thread got pretty popular and there is loads of value here. Big thanks to everyone who has contributed and offered to help.

I don’t think i made it clear in my first post but i’m actually pretty proficient with HTML/CSS/Bootstrap and i’ve launched simple sites like that before. I’ve had some exposure to javascript so i already know about functions, loops etc.

Even though i’ve never tried programing before, I've had a decent understanding of it.

Anyways..

I've spent about 15 hours in the past week learning. One thing i’ve noticed is that working from a virtual machine(Oracle VM running xubuntu) has done wonders for my productivity.

The general advice seems to be learning through doing and i couldn’t agree more. I spent a solid hour reading about “DOM manipulation” but it wasn’t until I was actually working/struggling on a project that it I actually started understanding it.

For the past year i’ve had the words “Try -> Fail -> Analyze -> adjust (repeat)” written on my whiteboard and i feel like that sums up my coding experience so far (add optional “bang head against desk” when necessary..)

I’ve been following the odin projects curriculum and so far i’ve really enjoyed it, they actually make you think instead of just showing you everything which i believe is the problem with a lot of “programming guides”.

So far i’ve created a few projects “rock paper scissors game”, sketchpad and a calculator. I’m not sure if i should stick with smaller projects or move on to something bigger.

I have an idea for a "workout builder" with some cool features. I’m starting to be able to imagine how to build these features which is really exciting.

Questions so far

• Work on multiple smaller projects or a bigger one
• When should i start using a framework?
• how do i know when i'm good enough to get hired?

 

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[alexkuzmov]

Questions so far

Work on multiple smaller projects or a bigger one
When should i start using a framework?
how do i know when i'm good enough to get hired?

1. Work on multiple smaller projects or a bigger one

Small or big, make it one, not multiple.

2. When should i start using a framework

There is no "right" time.
Best to use it from the start and figure the framework out as you go.
Dont be afraid to take it appart.
Try to understand what each peace of code does (that WILL take years so dont get discouraged) and google google google.

3. How do i know when i'm good enough to get hired?

Learn, Apply, Retry.

 

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[csalvato]

@MaciekWado I'm not sure who you're arguing with because I never made any of the assertions in your post.

Specifically, I never said, nor do I believe that:

• @healthstatus is a scam artist. (actually, his site is a great success story; and he also has software development experience!)
• Giving marketing advice makes you a scam artist.
• That marketing advice is worthless.
• That people who give marketing advice have a different opinion to me. Most people who are marketing focused on the forum actually give the same advice I give regarding the importance of a great product (@Andy Black and @Lex DeVille come to mind)
• That simply shifting to a product-focused mindset is a quick path to success, while ignoring all the other aspects of a business.

2019 on FLF is very different to 2012-2016, so it's easy to misunderstand my posts without that full context – especially since you joined in Mar 2019.

You'd probably find it funny to learn that I've built 3 marketing-focused businesses, and had an exit from one.

I don't really have the will to break down all your points and assertions, since my own position is being so grossly misinterpreted.

My sincere hope is that people who are reading through this post now understand when it's appropriate to learn how to code/program/develop software. It's not all the time, but very relevant in some contexts as I explain here: GOLD! - Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

 

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[SeanLewis]

Hey @alexkuzmov , thanks for checking in. I've been wanting to update the thread for a while now.

To be honest i feel a bit like a failure, haven't been able to bring myself to write about it.

I lost my job and apartment due to covid, or I guess my failure to deal with the situation.

After a few months I got into university(prep year for computer science), tuition is free and the loans are almost 0% interest so I guess it’s not a terrible deal. Managed to get a student apartment last month so i’m not on the streets anymore.

Needless to say it’s been a shitty year and I handled it poorly.

I’m starting to build things again, thinking about doing it in public and build some authority.

Feel like this is the first time I've been able to take a deep breath in the past 10 months.

I’m re-reading unscripted to get my head in the right space.

 

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[csalvato]

Hey @alexkuzmov , thanks for checking in. I've been wanting to update the thread for a while now.

To be honest i feel a bit like a failure, haven't been able to bring myself to write about it.

I lost my job and apartment due to covid, or I guess my failure to deal with the situation.

After a few months I got into university(prep year for computer science), tuition is free and the loans are almost 0% interest so I guess it’s not a terrible deal. Managed to get a student apartment last month so i’m not on the streets anymore.

Needless to say it’s been a shitty year and I handled it poorly.

I’m starting to build things again, thinking about doing it in public and build some authority.

Feel like this is the first time I've been able to take a deep breath in the past 10 months.

I’m re-reading unscripted to get my head in the right space.

Keep your head up, it gets better

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I'm hooked! You could give me a billion dollars and i'd still be building software. I like everything about it, Which is probably how i've been able to stick with it.

One issue is that I got stuck in "developer mode" for a while there which is why it took a couple months longer than it should have before launching... Although i do have a kick a$$ product now.

Even better, you know have a specialized skill that pays higher than minimum wage, and has economic demand.

Congrats on your first customer!

 

[Roli]

Don't get caught up in tutorial purgatory. Tutorials exist to answer a specific question that you encounter while working on a project. This shift in mindset will double your rate of learning or better.

I'm just wondering how this would work in the real world?

Say I have an idea for a mobile app, however I have zero experience in coding, how can I use a tutorial to answer specific questions, when I have one overriding question which is; how do I code an app?

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm genuinely interested how you create this shift in mindset that you mention. I've tried that approach, however because I lack some basic knowledge, I have found myself just simply following tutorials.

I guess what I'm asking is; at what point will I know when to shift my approach to learning code?

 

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[EdKirby]

When you have a small working web app that you've created yourself, that actually does something, that you can demonstrate and talk through.

^^^
Yes, this! Especially the "demonstrate and talk through".

 

[omarmo93]

I can give my 2 cents, since I'm in the exact same position as you.
I had an app idea, something I believe can be revolutionary, and have lost sleep over just ruminating all the ins and outs of it. Still matching up so far.
Spoke to my software developer friend who works for google, and has been developing for 9 years. Considers himself to be at a point where "he doesn't have to ask questions and can figure it all out himself."
He tells me (as an absolute beginner) to learn the basics of Javascript. Then with the basics, take a course in React Native and React. Using those, I can build the front end of my app on both IOS and Android. Then learn a database for the back end, and he suggests PostgreSQL.
Learn about things like API and SDK.
Finally, just start coding, and any questions that come along the way, someone on google or youtube has asked before. Good luck!

 

[EdKirby]

Thanks for the tip @EdKirby .

You're welcome!

What I've been doing lately is to watch a video on a certain subject and AFTER it’s done, I'll try it myself. This way I'm forcing myself to actually think about what I'm doing, and usually i’ll have to look up some documentation but that only helps solidify the knowledge.

Good process.

Here's a book that I've just recently picked up: UltraLearning

I'm only a third of the way through it but I'm sold. What you are doing is very close to one of the strategies he recommends, immersion. There are, of course, a lot more to the process of UltraLearning that you can pick up from the book. Highly recommended.

 

[RealDreams]

F*ck it, i'm learning to code

This has been nagging me for years now.

I'm sick of having great software ideas and not being able to build them.

I'm sick of not having any marketable skills.

And i'm sick of making excuses!

Why coding?

When my last business failed i realised i didn’t really have any “real” skills.

This is why i’m taking a step back before i launch another business and learning to program.

I’ve been interested in programming for a long time, but i never got around to learning anything more then HTML/CSS. I really like the idea of being able to build whatever i want, no matter how dumb it is.

I’m learning to code because i want to, not because it’s the fastest way to make money.


Here is the game plan:

I don't plan on wasting any time on this. Once i have a good understanding of the basics I plan on learning through DOING.

I'm currently going through the odin projects "web development 101". I already know HTML/CSS and Javascript is next.

I wasted a lot of time researching which back end language to learn but i've decided on "Ruby / Ruby on Rails". (there is no best language btw)

Once i know JS and I'm going to start applying to jobs/contracts while still learning RoR. My hope is to find something part time that is remote, that way i can spend the rest of my time learning and working on my own project.

Execution

The goal is to:

1. Learn programming.
2. Get a job and further develop this skill.
3. Create a “web app” of my own.

In this thread I'll share a weekly recap of the things i've learned, challenges encountered and wins. If you're a programmer and have tips, feel free to pm me or leave a comment.

This post is motivational.
I always wanted to learn to code but the high "barriers to entry" kind of blocked me each time.

I had the same thoughts as well; knowing how to code lets you transform any idea you have into something real. Something that is not always possible when outsourcing.

You've just created a "F*ck this event" for me.

 

[BlindSide]

February has been a month of uncertainty.

I’ve been learning ReactJS and progress has been slow and it's been getting harder to drag myself in front of the computer, not because i find it difficult but because my intentions have not been clear.

I’ve had to take a step back, I've had to really look at where I am in life.

I have a great idea for a Saas business. Businesses in this industry are currently paying tens of thousands of dollars and spending months doing what this could help them do in days if not hours.

The thing is..

I’m not sure which order to do things in, this is where I need your advice.

On one hand this project is a true fastlane venture, this business aligns perfectly with my 10 year vision.

On the other hand this will take a long time to develop so it might be smarter to build a smaller portfolio project(to show my skill), start getting some work and actually making some money first. Then once I have some more experience and disposable income I can focus on my fastlane venture.

What are your thoughts? Am i being foolish or realistic?

What? You have a project that you feel can make that much impact, and you want to wait for “experience?”

Nope, strongly disagree.

If I’m you, I’m diving in the waters. I’m making a landing page and driving traffic (I’m on Mobile, can’t link well.. find @Andy Black and his content on it). See what you can get. In fact, if it’s that disruptive, ask for pre-sales. Use the money to hire others and develop faster.

Even if you don’t agree with that approach, you need to do something. Wait too long, and someone else will come by and build it, and they’ll be laughing all the way to the bank.

Start today. Validate the idea.

 

[BlindSide]

Keep your eye on your own project. Work on it on the side. Put together basic proof-of-concepts, contact potential customers to get them to use your prototypes and give you feedback. If you're touching a problem that's a major pain point for them you should easily be able to get 2-3 people to do this with you.

Don't expect it to make money any time soon.

If you notice that you're getting a lot of interest and can't build it fast enough, you're in a position to build a team in exchange for equity, to raise money, or both.

If that never materializes into a business, use the work you do for your side project as evidence that you know what you're doing and land a job/freelance gig that is remote + more money than you're making now.

Repeat this process until you're at about $100-$150/hour as a contractor or 120-150k+/year as a W2 employee, or the business that you're working on on-the-side can support you.

Just my 2¢.

I like this approach as well. I think that working remote for companies is a huge advantage that people should be striving for, given the opportunity. For Fastlane members, it provides so much freedom with time back to work on the business.

 

[SeanLewis]

I might lose my job.

I work in a department store(major chain) and long story short I've taken over my manager's duties while he is on sick leave (a couple of weeks).

Today I was in a meeting with the other managers and the head of the store. I found out that there will be major downsizing and all stores are to be run at a minimum expense.

Basically none of the contracts of part time workers are valid anymore and they can let anyone go and they don’t have to let you work all your hours(this comes from the state so perfectly legal).

Technically I only have a part time employment so hearing this was like a knife in the gut. Especially just having moved out for the first time a month ago.

So best case scenario i will get to work between 0-80 hours a month or worst case i’ll be let go with nothing.(not even sure which one is the worst case tbh)

This was the last drop for me.

There really isn’t any safety in a regular job. I guess my dumb a$$ had to go through it to actually believe it.

Before this I was thinking about a plan for investing my money smartly with this market crash, and now it’s all about how long i’ll be able to pay rent if the worst happens.

This is my own fault, I've put myself in this situation and I need to fix it.

Friday to Sunday I'm off from work(might be longer), I'm gonna finish my full stack portfolio project to prove I know what I'm doing(to myself and others) and then I’m gonna do whatever it takes to get freelance work.

I need cash and I need it yesterday, the whole spending a couple of months building a saas is just not gonna work now.

Time to hustle.

(I use the MERN stack if you need anything..)

 

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[alexkuzmov]

PS. Check @Lex DeVille youtube clips about getting a gig on Upwork: Lex DeVille
He has some really nice tips which you can apply to any job application.

 

[RealDreams]

If anyone is looking for free tuts on coding, I found this guy out. Dev Ed

Might as well help someone.

 

[alexkuzmov]

Why do you need a portfolio to land an interview?
Apply, email, call, go to their office and ask to speak with HR if you have to.
Hustle.

I can’t believe i’ve cleaned bathroom walls covered in shit for 8 bucks an hour

I`ve cleaned vomit of a bar top and chairs for 8 bucks a day.

Even after I became a developer there were tough times when I had no money.

 

[SeanLewis]

Why do you need a portfolio to land an interview?
Apply, email, call, go to their office and ask to speak with HR if you have to.
Hustle.

I would never hire a developer without any previous work. So how can i expect someone else too?

Anyways it's a few hours away from being done so there's no need to dwell on it.

 

[csalvato]

Hey Sean,
I have about 11 years of experience as a developer
If I can help you with something, go ahead and drop me a question in this thread.

That being said, I believe in crossing bridges when you come to them.
If you have an app in mind, or some software you want to make, then focus on learning the tools needed for that.
If RoR is the tool you need, then great.
If not, then dont waste time on it. Instead learn what you`ll need.

Also, there are concepts in programing which apply for any language (excluding HTML, XML, CSS, LESS, etc. the UI languages basically, or SQL and others). You should focus on them regardless of which language you choose.
Dont focus on ALL of them, just the ones which are available in the language you are learning.

1. Logical structures. (if then, else, switch ...)
2. Cycle/Loop operators (for, for..in, while, foreach ...)
3. Variable types(string, bool, int ...) and scope (learn where a variable is visible and where not, SUPER IMPORTANT!)
4. Data structures (Array, Matrix, Stack, Heap ...)
5. Object oriented programing (abstraction, inheritance, interfaces, implementation ...)
6. Design patterns (Repository, Factory, Singleton ...)

If you understand these, you can learn any language.

I think #1 to #4 on that list are pretty crucial fundamentals.

I learned those the classical way in college. How would you recommend someone in 2019 learn that on their own? Are there some resources you recommend for those basics? Like a YouTube video or CodeAcademy course or Udemy course or something?