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Entrepreneurship Simplified By Karl Marx

Capitalist11

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In my humble opinion Entrepreneurship can be best defined by the most unlikely of sources; Karl Mark. Marx claimed that there are two classes in society, The Capitalist class and the Worker Class. According to Marx the Capitalists owned the means of production whilst the Workers merely owned their ability to sell their labour. So wouldn't Entrepreneurship best be defined as moving from the "Worker" class were one has only the ability sell ones labour for a wage , to the Capitalist class were you own the means of production and have the ability to sell something of higher value. Thoughts please.
 

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ChrisV

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Wow this thread is 3 years old and got no replies... I totally agree.. I’ve thought quite a bit of this myself. I’ve even thought of digging into his work more heavily myself to get more of a perspective. The first half of his manifesto of the party is a lot like TMF/Unscripted, especially equating modern labor to slavery

Masses of labourers, crowded into the factory, are organised like soldiers. As privates of the industrial army they are placed under the command of a perfect hierarchy of officers and sergeants. Not only are they slaves of the bourgeois class, and of the bourgeois State; they are daily and hourly enslaved by the machine, by the overlooker, and, above all, by the individual bourgeois manufacturer himself. The more openly this despotism proclaims gain to be its end and aim, the more petty, the more hateful and the more embittering it is.​

Marx was on point with that, but after that he goes into lala land. TMF’s answer is ‘rise above it and become a producer,’ Marx’s answer is “ITS NOT FAIR THEY NEED TO SHARE MORE WAH”

But yea, there are similarities.

a605bffd762e9dd8c14f79792686dd97.jpg
 

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Fantastic thread. I disagree with your definition of entrepreneurship in relation to Marx OP.

Marx defines three classes... the Proletariat, the Bourgeoisie and the Petit-Bourgeoisie (small Bourgeoisie).

The Proletariat are the workers, the people who actually have the skills to build what gets produced and use the tools necessary for production.

The Bourgeoisie are the owners of the MEANS OF PRODUCTION. They are the ones who own the TV channels, the big factories, the newspapers, the media, the airplane companies, etc.

The Petit-Bourgeoisie are those who aspire to become the Bourgeoisie - they are the small shop owners, people with small businesses, a gym, a money-making website, etc - people who employ others in a small business.

For example, a freelancer who runs his own business is part of the Proletariat. He is a worker. Sure, he doesn't have a boss, but he doesn't own the means of production either... Say he is a copywriter... he doesn't own Word, he doesn't own his email client, etc. His MEANS OF PRODUCTION are rented.

And yet, an entrepreneur is defined as someone who starts a business and takes the financial risk. This freelancer above started a business and is taking the financial risk. Yet his CLASS isn't that of a Bourgeois NOR that of a Petit-Bourgeoisie.

Same for someone who owns an affiliate website and has no employees. He is a Proletariat.

Probably everyone on this forum is part of the Proletariat and the Petit-Bourgeoisie. Unless we have someone here who owns $100s of millions of dollars in equity (assets minus liabilities).

Wow this thread is 3 years old and got no replies... I totally agree.. I’ve thought quite a bit of this myself. I’ve even thought of digging into his work more heavily myself to get more of a perspective. The first half of his manifesto of the party is a lot like TMF/Unscripted, especially equating modern labor to slavery

Masses of labourers, crowded into the factory, are organised like soldiers. As privates of the industrial army they are placed under the command of a perfect hierarchy of officers and sergeants. Not only are they slaves of the bourgeois class, and of the bourgeois State; they are daily and hourly enslaved by the machine, by the overlooker, and, above all, by the individual bourgeois manufacturer himself. The more openly this despotism proclaims gain to be its end and aim, the more petty, the more hateful and the more embittering it is.​

Marx was on point with that, but after that he goes into lala land. TMF’s answer is ‘rise above it and become a producer,’ Marx’s answer is “ITS NOT FAIR THEY NEED TO SHARE MORE WAH”

But yea, there are similarities.
Modern labor is slavery, and TMF and Marx are both right to recognize it as such. And yet, the way promoted by TMF cannot be the solution to the SOCIAL PROBLEM that is in question. It can be the solution for you, as an individual, but it cannot be the solution for an entire society... Not everyone can be an entrepreneur... we still need people to clean the streets, people to clean our homes, people to take care of children, teachers to teach them, police officers to protect us, soldiers to guard our freedoms etc. Who is going to do this work if everyone becomes an entrepreneur and an independent producer?

It's a fact of reality that not everyone can be an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs still need to employ others. If the "others" are eliminated because everyone becomes an entrepreneur, then who will be cleaning our streets and teaching our children?

So here's the thing... the way of entrepreneurship is a solution for individuals within capitalism. But if everyone were to become an entrepreneur, then capitalism itself will collapse. So this is the internal contradiction that Marx was pointing to.

What the solution is, I'm not sure. Technological development requires capitalism. We have to give up technological development to give up capitalism. But there are alternative systems -> Distributism is one such system.

Distributism is about a widely-spread ownership of the means of production with MANY small producers. In many ways it is what capitalism aspires to be, without large monopolies controlling everything and forcing everyone else to be a wage slave. But to switch to such a system we need to give up our addiction to technological development...

Communism proposes the collective ownership of the means of production. The issue with this, imo, is that people are not free in Communism - they have to do what the collective says. One vote in a collective of thousands is equivalent to very little independence for yourself. Nevertheless, there are enterprises built around this model... Check out Mondragon Corporation -> Not bad, 12 billion in revenue.
 

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Everyone seems to have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding about what capitalism is. Capitalism is a political system where all property is privately owned and individual rights are protected (ie you can trade with who you want).

If you want to start a factory, and offer someone money for their time... you can do that.
If you want to sit around all day drinking beers on your porch, you can do that.

Having capitalism as a political system does not mean that everyone will become an entrepreneur, and it does not mean that "the 99%" become wage slaves struggling to exist on pennies a day.

Owning a factory and ringing your workers for everything they have isn't capitalism... it's one approach to running a factory... which can be done under capitalism, or some collectivist method (communism, fascism etc).

"But if everyone were to become an entrepreneur, then capitalism itself will collapse. "
Nope. Entrepreneurs are producers. A political system cannot collapse from people producing stuff. You make something. Someone else makes something. Everyone in your town makes something. You trade with each other. There's no such thing as too many producers.

Karl Marx was completely ammoral and a disgusting waste of space.

A co-operative and communism are not equivalents.
 

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Owning a factory and ringing your workers for everything they have isn't capitalism... it's one approach to running a factory... which can be done under capitalism, or some collectivist method (communism, fascism etc).
Damn right brother!

So... I propose a job to anyone on the forum who is interested. It will be about 80 hours a week. 3 dollars per hour. It will be the most physically and emotionally taxing job you have ever done in your life. There is also no opportunity to learn or advance. Who wants to take me up on this? Why not?
 

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This is now my response to all deep and intense debates here:


1571673408508.png
 

Kak

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So... I propose a job to anyone on the forum who is interested. It will be about 80 hours a week. 3 dollars per hour. It will be the most physically and emotionally taxing job you have ever done in your life. There is also no opportunity to learn or advance. Who wants to take me up on this? Why not?
I will hire literally 1000 people right now on these terms. Why hasn't anyone applied yet?
 

broswoodwork

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I will hire literally 1000 people right now on these terms. Why hasn't anyone applied yet?
You've got to dress it up a little.

First propose that every liberal arts major's job will be lecturing the working class about how great free college and healthcare is; then, put the bayonet in their backs and order them into the salt mine for a daily bowl of soup. Works all the time, everytime!
 

guy93777

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In my humble opinion Entrepreneurship can be best defined by the most unlikely of sources; Karl Mark. Marx claimed that there are two classes in society, The Capitalist class and the Worker Class. According to Marx the Capitalists owned the means of production whilst the Workers merely owned their ability to sell their labour. So wouldn't Entrepreneurship best be defined as moving from the "Worker" class were one has only the ability sell ones labour for a wage , to the Capitalist class were you own the means of production and have the ability to sell something of higher value. Thoughts please.
Marx was an initiate

you guys don't understand that this world is a joke, a chessboard managed by initiates

there are indeed 2 groups

the intellectual group and the masses


society is like a giant human being ( as above so below )



what is a human being : mind and emotions




society is the same : mind ( freemasons, masterminds ,initiates, whatever )

and emotions ( the masses working like slaves and watching TV )




well explained here :


28186


i made a picture

28185

this is the real message of Karl Marx : the masterminds and the slaves




Marx teaching is for the initiates, not the average reader




Marx's teaching is at work too in the capitalist society : the masterminds ( bankers, think tank etc etc ) and the slowlane slaves










.
 
Last edited:

broswoodwork

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Marx was an initiate

you guys don't understand that this world is a joke, a chessboard managed by initiates

there are indeed 2 groups

the intellectual group and the masses


society is like a giant human being ( as above so below )



what is a human being : mental and emotions




society is the same : mental ( freemasons, masterminds ,initiates, whatever )

and emotions ( the masses working like slaves and watching TV )




well explained here :


View attachment 28186


i made a picture

View attachment 28185

this is the real message of Karl Marx : the masterminds and the slaves




Marx teaching is for the initiates, not the average reader




Marx's teaching is at work too in the capitalist society : the masterminds ( bankers, think tank etc etc ) and the slowlane slaves










.
What do you do for work @guy93777 ? You seem like a very interesting character.
 

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Vairavan

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In my humble opinion Entrepreneurship can be best defined by the most unlikely of sources; Karl Mark. Marx claimed that there are two classes in society, The Capitalist class and the Worker Class. According to Marx the Capitalists owned the means of production whilst the Workers merely owned their ability to sell their labour. So wouldn't Entrepreneurship best be defined as moving from the "Worker" class were one has only the ability sell ones labour for a wage , to the Capitalist class were you own the means of production and have the ability to sell something of higher value. Thoughts please.
++Rep (When this feature will come back?)

Karl Marx is both an Intelligent and stupid person. Intelligent for knowing how a business becomes successful. Stupid for not supporting it.

He once said successful businesses is one which has high government support. It's so true. Without things like IP, contracts, etc no business can succeed.
 
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Black_Dragon43

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Everyone seems to have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding about what capitalism is. Capitalism is a political system where all property is privately owned and individual rights are protected (ie you can trade with who you want).
If that's all that capitalism is, how is it different from distributism?
Having capitalism as a political system does not mean that everyone will become an entrepreneur, and it does not mean that "the 99%" become wage slaves struggling to exist on pennies a day.
Sure. That's not what I was saying.

I was merely saying that if entrepreneurship is the solution to our social ills (to avoid wage labour, which we have agreed is slavery), then this cannot be a solution for everyone.

"But if everyone were to become an entrepreneur, then capitalism itself will collapse. "
Nope. Entrepreneurs are producers. A political system cannot collapse from people producing stuff. You make something. Someone else makes something. Everyone in your town makes something. You trade with each other. There's no such thing as too many producers.
The "best" entrepreneurs don't produce themselves, but make others produce for them. You wouldn't have the iPhone if Steve Jobs didn't have any employees because everyone was a "producer". There are advantages to be obtained from producing in groups that cannot be obtained by individual producers. Distributism happens to be a system centred around individual producers. We can have that, but we need to give up large-scale technological advancement... That's what I was saying.
 
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MTEE1985

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What do you do for work @guy93777 ? You seem like a very interesting character.
He enlightens us sheep with his wisdom and lots of bold text. Then he decrees that we can’t be helped and will never understand. Then he claims he’s leaving forever. Then he comes back and does it all over again.

Oh, and when he comes back to this thread he’ll say something along the lines of “there was a 95% chance you would react this way” and possibly something about the underlying meaning of butterfly farts. That is TBD though.

Either way, I like him.
 
Last edited:

Kak

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You've got to dress it up a little.

First propose that every liberal arts major's job will be lecturing the working class about how great free college and healthcare is; then, put the bayonet in their backs and order them into the salt mine for a daily bowl of soup. Works all the time, everytime!
My whole point is market economics.

The left would say that leaving it up to the capitalists, with no government intervention, my job description above is what would happen... That we would squeeze our employees for every penny and wear monocles as we chortle and laugh over single malt scotch about their working conditions. Not true.

The reason no one would take me up on that job is because they CHOSE not to. They are free to choose a different job... A likely higher paying job. There is a market for labor and the equilibrium is FAR away from $3 per hour, 80 hours a week with no opportunity.
 

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Why do people that think the world is run by a group of "in the know" people that understand how the world "really" works, always assume they're part of the group that has said secret knowledge.

It's like overpopulation.... why don't these folks talking about how we shouldn't have babies because it's bad for the environment ever think "hey, maybe I'm one of the surplus humans"?
 

Vairavan

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Marx was an initiate

you guys don't understand that this world is a joke, a chessboard managed by initiates

there are indeed 2 groups

the intellectual group and the masses


society is like a giant human being ( as above so below )



what is a human being : mind and emotions




society is the same : mind ( freemasons, masterminds ,initiates, whatever )

and emotions ( the masses working like slaves and watching TV )




well explained here :


View attachment 28186


i made a picture

View attachment 28185

this is the real message of Karl Marx : the masterminds and the slaves




Marx teaching is for the initiates, not the average reader




Marx's teaching is at work too in the capitalist society : the masterminds ( bankers, think tank etc etc ) and the slowlane slaves










.
Uppercase doesn't work on your keyboard?
 

Yzn

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I will hire literally 1000 people right now on these terms. Why hasn't anyone applied yet?
Dude. You can hire half of Jordan's population with those terms by tomorrow. Let me give you a bonus, offer half the pay.
 

Kak

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Dude. You can hire half of Jordan's population with those terms by tomorrow. Let me give you a bonus, offer half the pay.
Well we were kind of talking about the civilized world.

Jordanians might accept these terms because they don't really have a choice. There is a number of reasons for their lack of opportunity... Capitalism isn't one of them.
 

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Vairavan

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So... I propose a job to anyone on the forum who is interested. It will be about 80 hours a week. 3 dollars per hour.
3$ per hour? Are you kidding?

Here in India poor people work for most physically taxing jobs for like 10$/day (Labors are only paid per day here),12 hours/day,7 days/a week.

It will be the most physically and emotionally taxing job you have ever done in your life. There is also no opportunity to learn or advance.
If it's not a joke I'm wondering what job it is.
 
Last edited:

Kak

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3$ per hour? Are you kidding?

Here in India poor people work for most physically taxing jobs for like 10$/day (Labors are only paid per day here),12 hours/day,7 days/a week.



If it's not a joke I'm wondering what job it is.
It is not a joke, but it isn’t real either. It was an example of a horrible job that people in the civilized world wouldn’t take because they have other options.
 

Bertram

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He enlightens us sheep with his wisdom and lots of bold text. Then he decrees that we can’t be helped and will never understand. Then he claims he’s leaving forever. Then he comes back and does it all over again.

Oh, and when he comes back to this thread he’ll say something along the lines of “there was a 95% chance you would react this way” and possibly something about the underlying meaning of butterfly farts. That is TBD though.

Either way, I like him.
He sounds like Prophet Moses having a really bad hair day.
 
Last edited:

Yzn

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Well we were kind of talking about the civilized world.

Jordanians might accept these terms because they don't really have a choice. There is a number of reasons for their lack of opportunity... Capitalism isn't one of them.
I know you were, I just felt like using the chance to rant lol
 

broswoodwork

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He sounds like Prophet Moses having a really bad hair day.
Eccentrics are the best! Everyone else will just be proclaiming what everyone already knows loudly and to thunderous applause, and then BOOM!, some dude comes along talking about Aleister Crowley, or whatever, in a loosely/ barely connected way, and it clicks; "yes, this is why I use the internet. " :D
 

Kevin88660

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Marx’s theory is that while capitalism is very efficient in production, it has many internal “self-contradictions” and it is internally an unstable political economy. It is prone towards overproduction and the impoverished workers cannot afford to become the consumers to buy the stuff being produced.

Today’s digital economy with elaborate system of government welfare is very different from the 19 century European capitalism.
 

Black_Dragon43

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My whole point is market economics.

The left would say that leaving it up to the capitalists, with no government intervention, my job description above is what would happen... That we would squeeze our employees for every penny and wear monocles as we chortle and laugh over single malt scotch about their working conditions. Not true.
The left today may say that, but I don't think that's what Marx would have thought. He was well aware of how market economics works. He understood that the capitalists were fighting over workers, and the wages the workers were paid were a function of supply and demand. At the time he was writing, the industrial revolution was just getting started, and there was a lot more supply of workers than demand, largely caused by the migration of large numbers of people from rural to urban centers, which offered opportunities to be part of the "new" economy.

Marx was not a moralist - if you read Das Kapital you will see that the problems he pointed out were social and economic problems that would arise out of the development of capitalism - not moral ones. His point wasn't that the immoral capitalists would brutalise the poor workers to extract profit out of them.

Marx was making a far deeper point. Namely that capitalists will, by the very structure of our free market exchange operations, appropriate the value produced by their workers for themselves. How does this happen? Capitalists have money. Workers don't. Workers need tools to produce, but they cannot afford them. So capitalists buy the tools and they effectively provide them to the workers. The workers compete with each other for access to the tools to be able to produce. Then they use those tools to produce a certain quantity of goods. This quantity of goods is then sold. So SALES - LABOR COST - OVERHEAD (machinery, expanding production, equipment, etc.) will be the surplus value. Who owns this surplus value? The capitalists, not the workers who produced it.

Think about the modern world. Venture capitalists appropriate the value produced by the likes of Zuckerberg, Bezos, etc. and the rest of their employees. Most of the wealth produced by Amazon, Facebook, etc. is not owned by the entrepreneurs and their workers. It's owned by the capitalists who funded them. Have a look at this diagram below... it shows the growth of productivity vs the growth of wages.


Who owns the excess productivity? There is no moralism here about giving to the have nots and what not. It's just a fact of reality.

The reason no one would take me up on that job is because they CHOSE not to. They are free to choose a different job... A likely higher paying job. There is a market for labor and the equilibrium is FAR away from $3 per hour, 80 hours a week with no opportunity.
Why shall we restrict ourselves to the "civilized" world as you call it? Does the civilized world not rest in large part on the manufacturing power of China, India, and, in your language, the rest of the "uncivilized" world where things are manufactured for $3 per hour or less?

In a globalised world, our economies in the civilised parts need the poor economies to function as they do. Without this, our prices would be significantly higher, and our people significantly poorer. The exportation of exploitation was something that Marx wrote about, and it's similar in principle to what happens in physical systems. We, as living organisms, reduce our internal entropy by increasing external entropy by more than we reduce ours - something known in physics as negentropy. Similarly, the civilized world reduces its internal exploitation by outsourcing it.

To say that we choose not to take that job is just a way of saying that our socio-economic conditions allow us that choice. But imagine for a moment saying to a miner in China that he is "free" to quit his job if he doesn't like the pay or the conditions. Sure, technically, he is free. Just like a child is "free" to find whatever place he wants to live if you kick him out of the house. But practically, choice is always limited by the market and your society. You cannot choose to be the CEO of Microsoft, any more than the miner in China can choose to have a different job.

There are other alternatives to capitalism which don't abolish the free market or private property. Have a read about distributism. How does that sound to you?
 

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