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Dressing For Success... Stop looking like a fool.

Topics relating to managing people and relationships

Kak

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Hello Kak

I agree with what you are stating in your post. This is something I have failed in due to my IDGAF what people think attitude which dontt but I should because it matters in how I affect people when I first meet them and gives them a bad impression of me. What do you focus on when looking to dress the part. How do you choose and what can it help accomplish in the world of business. Are there any situations where it could work against you?

It is all about professionalism and competence. No it can't hurt.

If YDGAF what other people think about you, you will end up poor. Other people are your customers. Other people are the employees you'll need to lead. Other people are your investors. Other people are NEEDED to put money in YOUR bank.

There is a reason I think this is important. It isn't a finger in the wind guess, speculation or opinion. It is fact. Dressing for success is part of being competent and professional. Not flashy. Not showy. Competent and professional. The inverse of which is incompetent and unprofessional. How could being incompetent and unprofessional ever help?

That said, bud... I mean this as someone that wants to help, not an a**hole. I forbid you to send a business email until you clean up your hideous writing skills. That was rough.
 

biophase

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Ironically if everyone in a meeting is wearing nice suits and a guy walks in wearing a T-shirt, he would instantly polarize himself as either the mailroom boy or the owner of the company and people would probably err on the side of caution and assume he’s the owner.
 

Kak

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I don’t see why it’s so far fetched to want to see how the guy giving out style advice personally dresses.... isn’t that basic common sense?

Why would anyone lose sleep over a forum comment? LOL

Style advice? More like professionalism advice. This isn't queer eye for the straight guy a**hole.

I operate a business that requires professionalism, so I know how to present myself. I'm not even opposed to sharing my closet on video, but I don't owe you shit and I don't have to prove a damn thing. I am here helping people clean up their appearance for business... FOR FREE. I am not selling a 12 step book series on "style". I'm not charging for business coaching. I am helping out people that have CLEARLY appreciated this thread and might have learned a thing or two.

Other than that it is MY OPINION. I'm not holding myself out to be some style expert, just an observant business guy helping other business guys. I'll freely admit that. You're the only one that doesn't seem to get that. Still people are tuned in for some reason... I wonder why?
 
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ChrisR

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i just did 2 sales direct to client in downtown business district, wearing jeans and a tshirt. wearing a suit makes you a massive douche bag imo. or you need to beg investors for $.

poor people usually dress up to look professional, but to me they just look like slaves, its hilarious to see these people jam packed side to side on a train (or better yet a bus!) riding public transit looking all fancy.

being from vancouver ive been surrounded by wealth all the time and its always the lower class that dress up and the insanely rich that look average. just my thoughts

no thanks. i prefer looking like a fool.


I remember walking into a store one time ready to drop $10,000 in cash on what I was looking for. I was wearing ripped up jeans and a t-shirt. The salespeople literally looked right past me and pretended like I wasn't there. I can almost guarantee you had I walked in with a shirt and tie on they would have been hovering around me and getting me bottles of water while I browsed. If my memory serves this was in a consumer electronics Big Box store but you will see it most notably in car dealers and jewelry stores.

This is brilliantly captured in the movie Pretty Woman when Julia Roberts is shopping for dresses.


This made me think of a story I was once told by the best salesman at I company I once worked for. It's incredibly good advice for people that are in sales.

He said to treat everyone and I mean EVERYONE like they are potentially millionaires. He said that the dude that would come in to the store on the weekend wearing flip flops, a t-shirt and shorts probably spent his entire week dressed up doing business deals and what not. He said many very successful people want to get out of those clothes as soon as humanly possible.

He went on to tell me that some of the best sales he ever made were with people that looked like they just woke up and threw clothes on. He said that while everyone else was ignoring those people he was making easy money closing deals with them.

I guess the moral of the story is... Don't judge a book by it's cover.


EDITED to add Vigilante's post once I saw it.
 
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The Abundant Man

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We have addressed this numerous times and you are wrong.

Money comes from OTHERS. How they percieve your professionalism, confidence and competence matters... A lot.

I would argue it is part of the work you put in.
Reminds me of this:

"And research shows that the largest common denominator when studying what attracts women to men is that men who are perceived to be of higher status around women tend to attract them more often.

It’s no surprise then that status gets mentioned the most often in dating advice and pick up material. It’s ubiquitous, and yet there are a number of interpretations of what actually constitutes status. There’s outward status (money, resources, nice clothes) and behavioral displays of status (confidence, dominance, leadership). There are arguments on both sides of which drives which: does having money and prestige lead to confidence and leadership? Or does being a confident leader create wealth and prestige?

My personal belief is the latter. And not only is there some research supporting that women are attracted to potential status as much as they are attracted to status itself, but I feel like I have a fair amount of experience in this area. For a period of time toward the end of college and the first two years afterward, I was dead broke, living on my friend’s couch for a period of time, unemployed (usually) and still going out and partying quite a bit. This didn’t slow me down. In fact, I attracted a significant number of older women who took me under their wing and wanted to support me during this period until I got on my feet.

I believe that status in a male is determined by his behavior. Outward displays of status can create opportunities (cars, money, nice clothes), but don’t create lasting attraction themselves. They are the effects of high status behavior, not the causes.

Sexual attraction from women is determined by status, status is determined by behavior, and what determines whether a man has attractive behavior or not is his perception of himself relative to those around him, particularly women. I refer to this concept as neediness and believe the degree of a man’s neediness around women will determine how attractive or unattractive his behavior around them will be.

For instance, a needy man may come up with really clever jokes and have a great job, but he will use them to impress her and get validation from her — needy behaviors — and will therefore be perceived to be unattractive. Whereas a non-needy man may talk about silly conversation topics, openly admit that he’s between jobs, but get very excited and passionate about his rock climbing hobby. Believe it or not, this man will be seen as attractive because his behaviors will be genuine, authentic, and non-needy. The reason is he’s basing his behavior around her on his perception of himself and not her perception of him.

The needy man, despite having a nice job and clever things to say, is a follower. He’s a pawn of those around him. He will only go so far. The non-needy man, even though he may be a bit aimless and in a downturn in his life, he will end up living an enriching and unique life that suits him and makes him happier.

If a man values the perceptions of others more than his perception of himself, then he will naturally behave in an unattractive way around them. If he trusts his perception of himself more than the perceptions of those around him, then he will be perceived as a non-needy man, and therefore behave attractively. All of the outward appearances of status and resources — the fitness, the nice clothes, the cool lifestyle — these things are a result of a man who is inwardly driven, a man who invests in himself and takes care of himself.

When all is said and done, all attractive traits in a man can be traced back to his lack of neediness." -
How to Attract Women | Mark Manson
 
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AgainstAllOdds

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If anyone wants an intro, send me a message. I don't wear suits as much since it's not suitable for my business, but used to order bespoke suits from China (suits made from scratch to perfectly fit your body).

Basically the process:

Pick a suit from a magazine, tv show, or high end clothing brand you like.
Get your measurements.
Send the image to the Chinese connect. Have them price it out.
Get a perfectly fitting suit for $130 to $300.

The price difference was based on the quality of materials and the expertise of the tailor that they used.

Could be a good way for you guys to get top suits for cheap.
 
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AFMKelvin

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I enjoy Eastern spirituality for its simplicity and non duality. In those philosophies you are taught to look at everything the same. A homeless man, a rich man, a stone or a nugget of gold you're to look it at with the same eyes. Even though I do my best to follow those principles, I know other people do not.

The majority of people judge you by what you wear. Specially in today's western society where people wear the things which they identify with. In my case I'm sort of stuck in my teenage years style wise. I have no clue where to even begin to change my dressing style. I dress like I just came out of 2006's rap music video (without the baggy pants). On top of that I'm a minimalist, if you went in my closet you are only going to find some white t's and jeans and one pair of shoes.

Honestly I'm starting not to like that, for the simple fact that I know people are judging me for what I wear. I don't mind buying more items to add to my closet to get a new look even if it means breaking the rules of minimalism. Can you please help me get a new style. I want something simple, something that I can wear everyday but still looks business like.
 

Kak

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Thanks for doing this. I have two questions.

1. Can you share pictures of what kind of suits/outfits you'd recommend everyone have in their closet? I'm planning to get some new ones made.
2. My business requires a lot of blue collar sales and I find it detrimental to over dress as it loses trust with the customer. Would you agree? Or how would you sell to blue collar small business owners?

Yes, will do.

Is this blue collar sales role your primary need?

Weird question, but what part of the country are you in?

Jeans and a sport coat work great in Texas and probably most of The South for anything from blue collar/meetings with the working class, up to lunch meetings at all, but formal venues.
 

Kak

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I really don't care for the current fitting style for jackets and suits -- fitted so snug that it looks like you're busting out of them. Fabric puckered and straining a bit against the buttons when you're in a relaxed neutral position, and worse if you actually move. It's like the "skinny jeans" of jackets, but it seems to be the style for young men. I'm 61 and I don't care for it. I'll stick with jackets that have enough fabric to reach the buttons, and pants with enough inseam to reach my shoes.

TOTALLY 100 percent agree. They still sell the classic business suit. The party douche suits as I like to call them have no place in the boardroom.

And by douche suits I mean:
Anything shiny
Anything super bright and colorful
Anything so slim you look like a bobblehead
Anything with tiny lapels
Anything with giant lapels
Skinny ties
Shiny shirts
Funky patterned shirts
I probably missed some this is just off the top of my head.
 

Kak

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I don't know. I feel like focusing on how you look takes away too much time from the important stuff. Just put on a simple t shirt and a pair of shorts and get out the door and get to WORK.

Shut it down folks. No need for additional commentary. Brian here has cracked the code none of us were able to arrive at. Bravo. Groundbreaking. Featured post.

I'm just thankful he took his valuable time away from the "important stuff" to enlighten us all.
 
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G

Guest58302

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I don't know. I feel like focusing on how you look takes away too much time from the important stuff. Just put on a simple t shirt and a pair of shorts and get out the door and get to WORK.
nope. It's 8 pages long lol. Just giving my opinion. I guess I spoke to soon? Oops.
Page 2:
The way I see it is that @Kak plays the game on a different level. Do you need to dress for success if you're a solopreneur working on your e-commerce store? Not really as you don't interact with people face to face so there's no point in buying a nice suit if you aren't going to wear it anyway. If you're fine with running a small business, I don't think that Kak has a problem with that.

Should you pay more attention to your clothes when you negotiate with millionaires or billionaires who can potentially sign a 7-figure contract with you? I think so. It's a completely different world where every single detail matters.

Not impress, or to attract attention... Just look the part.

So politicians are corrupt... So... They control a sh*t load of money.

People that want to actually make money. You can't go through life bitching about conformists, talking about it the way things ”ought” to be, and expect to make anything of yourself. Like it or not, the world we live in is the way it is. If you show up to a business meeting with me and you look like you just rolled out of bed in the morning, the deal isn't happening.

Being the best, most professional version of yourself is in YOUR best interest.

Once again... Not to impress, just to look the part. Impressing and standing out are not the goal. Exuding professionalism is. The more capable you come across, the better the deals you can swing.

You SHOULD ABSOLUTELY CARE about the opinions of the people you are trying to make a deal with. This notion of ”f*ck them” is ridiculous. Once again. It is in YOUR best interest. You're not doing this for them.

This is the last time I defend my position on why it's important. IT IS and those that don't agree are wrong. You cool cats that can't be bothered to look halfway decent because it's beneath you... Good luck... I hope you play the lotto because you can't make real money in a vacuum.
There's your answer.
Jeez didn't know this forum was so full of butt hurt guys who take life so seriously. I can go back and forth with these childish arguments but I am going to end it right here.

I don't think that anyone here is butt hurt... If you take a look above your post, there seemed to be some productive and informative discussion going on. You kind of broke the flow of the conversation there with a post that was refuted on Page 2.

Next time in a short thread just try to make sure to read all the posts prior to posting. (At least skim over). It's proper forum etiquette and shows some respect to the other posters in the thread.

------

Unfortunately, I don't have much to contribute to this thread as dress-code where I am in my Fastlane journey is not yet important. But I appreciate the time and value that @Kak is providing to those who need it.

Also, that story about @Vigilante 's dad's old business partner gave me a chuckle. That was a good one.
 
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ChrisV

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So I wanted to bump this due to a recent experience. The past few weeks I've been really depressed. Wasn't sure why because not much has changed. Well today I finally figured out the reason. It's changing to winter and I haven't gone Winter clothes shopping yet. I've been wearing this one jacket because again it literally just started getting cold. It's a jacket I don't like at all and I think I look terrible in it.. but whatever - it's cold. But I'm usually very conscious of how I look.

I didn't even put two and two together that the reason I've been so depressed the last week was how awful I felt I looked. Whenever I went out I hoped I didn't see anyone I knew. I finally got around to doing some winter shopping and the depression lifted as soon as I started dressing better. Confidence back up.. everything.

How you dress is so important. There's a concept in Psychology called the Halo effect where people treat you differently based on one minor thing. How you look is a major one. This is s a well-studied phenomenon People who look good get lighter prison sentences, they're treated better, and a bunch of other advantages

Halo effect is the tendency for positive impressions of a person, company, brand or product in one area to positively influence one's opinion or feelings in other areas. It is a type of cognitive bias. and is the opposite of the horn effect.
A simplified example of the halo effect is when an individual noticing that the person in the photograph is attractive, well groomed, and properly attired, assumes, using a mental heuristic, that the person in the photograph is a good person based upon the rules of that individual's social concept.

While you can't really change your looks themselves you can do a LOT to change your presentation. How you dress. Cologne/perfume. Accessories. The car you drive. Whatever you can do to look better. It goes a long long way.

But do a little test... go grab a new outfit you really like and see how it changes your entire mood.
 
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Supercar

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I understand this dressing advice, but a large part of why I am not climbing the corporate ladder and not owning a human resource based business is that I hate wearing suits and ties. I hate meeting new people as well, haha. That's just me.

Doing things that I do not like doing adds an unnecessary stress on me that I can better live without. I'd rather spend my energy doing something worthwhile than wear uncomfortable clothes to impress some people whose opinion I do not care about.
 
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SquatchMan

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I've read, and my dad (an avid suit wearer at one time) taught me, that a white collar man needs at least four suits in his closet to avoid looking like a one trick pony:

Dark grey suit.
Charcoal grey suit.
Navy blue suit.
Black herringbone (more versatile than solid black).

Once you get the four main suits out of the way, then you can start branching out into other colors. Lighter blue, khaki, different patterns, different weaves, etc.

Thoughts? It seems like a good place to start with suits since you can easily mix them up each day of the week.
 

Kak

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It was sort of a pun. Here's the the thing you said the only time he saw you in a full suit and tie was at his funeral. How can he see you if he's dead?
Are you F*cking serious? What is the matter with you?
 
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Vigilante

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I understand the concept of this thread and agree with the importance of dressing properly for each situation, BUT where are the pictures of some of your outfits @Kak?

I’m not trying to out you, but it seems silly to take style advice on a forum where barely anyone here even knows what you look/dress like.

Dozens of the highest-profile members here know him personally. Take his advice, or don't. He won't lose a seconds worth of sleep over it.
 
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Duane

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No worries, @Kak! My apologies for disrupting your AMA thread. You took the time to do this and I should’ve been more open to your input. After thoroughly reading through this entire thread, I’ve already learned a bunch of different things I can do to dress better. Seriously, thank you so much!

There's something you don't ever see.

Rep+ for the growth.
 
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NanoDrake

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I really can't understand all this pain around wearing a suit and tie.
Maybe I'm Italian and this concept of being dressed in gym clothing everyday is a bit foreign to me, but seriously, dressing sharp isn't such a torture, plus, if done correctly, isn't that expensive either...

Can someone explain why it's so hard to wear a tie to a meeting? it's business, not the bar down the beach
 
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Longinus

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Few months ago, I wanted to buy a new suit but - like many folks here - I lift, the regular sizes never fit for me: pants too small on the upper legs, jacket too small on shoulders and arms etc... Getting a suit tailor made is easily €1000, so I looked for other options.

Last month I traveled to Shenzhen and searched beforehand if there was a tailor that could make me a suit. I found this video:


So I went to this tailor and ordered 2 three-piece suits on Saturday morning. The next day in the evening I could pick them up already. Total price: about €300 and they are well made.

The funny part is: I have probably the cheapest suit there is, even cheaper than most people's regular clothes, but everyone really treats my like a baws when I wear those :rofl:
 

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What do you think of groomed facial hair stubble (like designer facial hair stubble) for professional meetings instead of clean shaven? Do you think people would it's inappropriate or would it be out of place?

I have a baby face when I shave.

Remember:

36352990_1089916481146683_8523753324971819008_n.jpg
 
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Kak

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nope. It's 8 pages long lol. Just giving my opinion. I guess I spoke to soon? Oops.

Yep you did. For the 16th time in this thread... Flashy isn't the point. Competence and professionalism is... But you wouldn't know that because you didn't read the thread and decided comment from the peanut gallery about t-shirts and efficiency.

You and @sparechange have added precisely nothing to this discussion.
 

Kak

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Hey man, Conor Mcgregor dressed for success but it didn't stop him from getting his a$$ whooped by Khabib, the work you put in is what matters, not your dress code.

We have addressed this numerous times and you are wrong.

Money comes from OTHERS. How they percieve your professionalism, confidence and competence matters... A lot.

I would argue it is part of the work you put in.
 

Kak

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Tell us more.. I have actually pondered this. Did you learn from watching Youtube videos or something? Whenever I go get my hair cut, it seems I get a different person every time, and they're never consistent. I even bring photos of myself I took after a very nice haircut one time, but they still can't do it quite right, lol.

I started by growing it out a little... Like the longest version of a still clean cut professional hairstyle and then VERY conservatively trimmed it up with scissors and a #6-7 guide for the sides.

Doing this, I knew I could always go to a barber and get it fixed.

I slowly got more confident over the last 2 years worth of haircuts that now I can do pretty much anything I want. Also, if you spend 30 bucks at the barber every 3 weeks and you can do it in an hour less than the whole driving over there and waiting dog and pony show, and you value your time at $300/hour... You save $5700 per year. ;)

This also gets me out of the conversation too... Which ultimately lands on what do you do? A conversation I don't want to have with a barber, who could be a communist.
 
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Walter Hay

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I started my serious business life with some big disadvantages. Being short and skinny due to a gene mutation that has plagued my life meant that I would never present an impressive appearance.

Despite that I always dressed conservatively because I believed that it was necessary in the world of face to face selling.

I desperately needed the first sale in my first business so that my children would not go hungry. I think many who have commented in this thread would think I was an idiot to wear a suit to a very dirty factory to demonstrate my product in production.

I arrived dressed in suit, white shirt, tie, and polished shoes, while carrying a day's supply of the chemical that I wanted to demonstrate. Nobody commented, but having previously arranged the visit with the factory manager I got to work.

I removed suit coat and tie, rolled up my sleeves and became one of the workers. I knew this was the filthiest, most primitive factory in the industry, but I was confident that with my tactics and a good product I could swing the deal.

Working all day in those conditions, I ruined a good shirt. I shared the dirty lunch room with the sweaty workers and they quickly saw me as one of them. I had dressed down to suit that environment, simply by rolling up my sleeves and removing my tie. If I had arrived in work clothes the effect would not have been so profound.

The result was that I made the sale that paid our bills and fed us for a month. Repeat orders continued for years. I never had to repeat that performance because all the other factories I visited had much more civilized conditions, but I wore a suit and tie to every one of them, because I was dealing with the usual type of executives unlike the manager at that first factory.

Walter
 

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I've read, and my dad (an avid suit wearer at one time) taught me, that a white collar man needs at least four suits in his closet to avoid looking like a one trick pony:

Dark grey suit.
Charcoal grey suit.
Navy blue suit.
Black herringbone (more versatile than solid black).

Once you get the four main suits out of the way, then you can start branching out into other colors. Lighter blue, khaki, different patterns, different weaves, etc.

Thoughts? It seems like a good place to start with suits since you can easily mix them up each day of the week.

Agreed. 4 suits are plenty. You don't want anyone remembering your suits though so subtle is important.

Dark gray and charcoal are basically one in the same. I like some light grays. But yes you are correct. I generally stay away from solid suits in favor of some kind of very subtle patterning, it hides wrinkles, it hides lint you may pick up and it honestly just looks better.

To that end I like subtle pin striping on dark gray and navy blue and on the lighter grays and blues I like a little depth to the fabric. Just a very very subtle patterning. Like that salt and pepper light suit I posted above.

I would argue the 4 suits, in a CEO, leadership position, to have in todays business world are...
-Dark blue subtle pin
-Dark gray subtle pin striping
-Medium Blue with some kind of subtle pattern.
-Light or medium gray with a subtle pattern for summer.

Every white collar guy also needs a blue blazer. The one with gold buttons to wear with all sorts of slacks and jeans.
 
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Bekit

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I wonder how much of our opinions on this topic relates to conditioning that came from our parents.

For instance, my mom wouldn't be caught dead in sweatpants or a hoodie, even around the house. The very suggestion made her shudder once when I asked her about it. She would wear a stylish blazer or an attractive sweater for warmth, never a sweatshirt. And I grew up hearing my dad talk about people negatively behind their backs if they wore clothes that he perceived as too casual for the occasion.

So I find myself falling into those same patterns. I'm wearing a crisp blue button-down shirt with a pearl necklace and khaki pants, even though I'm working from home and no one is going to see me. I do this for the sole reason that it pleases me to do so... but there's probably also a subconscious association of "approval" that can be traced back to the way I heard other people being talked about while I was growing up. I approve more of myself--and feel better about myself--when I'm wearing professional, sharp clothing. And therefore, I feel more confident, and I present myself better, and when I do interact with others, they receive me better, leading to an upward spiral of positive feedback.

Side note: Socks from Eddie Bauer last for an ETERNITY. At least the women's socks I've bought did. And if they don't, they have a super generous guarantee.
 
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Kak

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@Hong_Kong

A lot has certainly changed in the world since I wrote the first post of this thread.

Back then I was visiting the dry cleaners once a week! I was wearing jackets, dress shirts, nice shoes, all of it, several times a week. Why? Because I had a place to wear it.

Today, I can’t get people to meet in person. It’s like that entire part of business evaporated. Now people want to use Zoom or MS Teams for everything. While that is in fact easier, I have noticed it doesn’t leave the impression or influence others the way having an enjoyable and productive meeting of the minds. Either way, it’s not up to me, it’s culture.

Granted I have a big backlog of clothes that need dry cleaned, but I haven’t been to the dry cleaner in over a year.

I used to even wear jackets to church, at least partially causing a lot of the men including the pastor in my otherwise casual church to do the same. Today, the pastor frequently wears a nice looking plain t-shirt. I’m not bothered either, I guess I just don’t care anymore.

The culture has made and is continuing to make a decisive move toward informal attire. The more formal city dwelling executives don’t take meetings anymore. So my nicer clothing is reserved for weddings, galas, and other events that are also waning.

I can confidently say that today, in 2022, dressing for success comes down to looking like you care. That’s it.

Interesting how times change. Having nice suits is very very low on my list of musts at the moment. As much as I like them, mine are collecting dust.
 
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Philip Marlowe

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Great thread, @Kak

I couldn't agree more on appropriate attire. I setup an appointment to meet with a guy for some design work. When I got to his office, he was wearing an old hooded sweatshirt, smelled like cigarettes, and hadn't shaved in days. Nice guy, but I knew right then it wasn't going to work out. Maybe that's wrong, but so be it.

Not to hijack, and just my two cents, but you really just need a few quality items. Allen Edmond's can last a decade when polished and re-soled, as can Florsheim or Bostonian. Go to Jos A Bank for a nice two-button suit when they're on sale and TAILOR the suit coat, not just the trousers - don't let them give you the jacket fit off the rack. Get 2-3 decent ties with crisp, white shirts (please avoid the TJ Maxx package deals with the gray/orange/red shirts and matching tie). Add a classic, used watch (Omega is always safe) and you're good for every wedding and graduation.

If you want to go up a few levels, make the shoes Edward Green; the suit Brooks Brothers (1818 is fine); French-cuff shirts as Kak says; and the watch a Breitling or Rolex.

-PM
 

Kak

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Like I said in the other thread... Professionalism doesn't always mean a suit. Sometimes it can just mean golf clothes. Hell I wear a sport coat and jeans 5 times to every 1 time I wear a suit. However, when I have little negotiation leverage, like lobbying, I wear a suit and tie every time. It shows respect to the position.

I'm looking at 2 new suit styles to pick up. I looked at the brooks brothers site for inspiration. They are running a deal on suits so I might do it. My suits are aging and I need to replace the lighter gray and the navy blue pin.

I like both of these suits, they are conservative, but also a slight deviation away from plain. Still classic. You'll look better than a plain solid suit, but most people won't know why. I'm not a big fan of bold pin striping or plads. I know that's the fad right now.
9C1C4CBF-2CFD-4F7B-A09D-0EFCB69BDCEE.jpeg
AA467A0E-2807-4CB6-B2A0-9F6077FD82C3.jpeg
 
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