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Designing and inventing

DrummerDad

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I have started to sort out my plan, and even posted about a little in the thread called "which is the more logical choice?" Its about my struggle mostly. I think Im on a much clearer path now.

Heres my plan:

Ive been working on an invention for awhile. I came up with it about 18 months ago. I took it to a trade show last year, and everyone loved it. I filed for a provisional patent, and recently filed for the patent.
I struggled at first, because I thought I had to start a business to make alot of money. I spent countless hours reading about starting a business. I filed papers with the state, and found out all I could. Read books, and articles on websites, went to workshops, and counsuling, all that crap.
After all the work, and all the sleepless nights worrying, and all the time wasted talking to other business owners, etc... I ran across MJs book. I bought it, and read it. I loved it.
It changed the way I think about this whole thing. I dont have to manufacture this thing myself. And why would I want to? Why go into work everyday, to crack the whip at factory workers to make myself miserable for 70+ hrs a week, and a pathetic salary? Sounds like a job.
So, I gathered myself, and made a few phone calls I should have made months ago.
I was referred to a guy who has recently been through a few licensing agreements in the same industry Im in. And he has agreed to open a door with a major manufacturer, and get me in to see the Executive team, or whoever it will be who makes the decisions on these matters.
I spent over 16 months chasing my tail, and watching things fall apart, only to make more progress in 2 days by opening my mind, and thinking a little. I removed the thought of "you have to do it this way", and said "to hell with that, Im making this up as I go." I can do it however it works.
So, the plan is this: Ill finish the patent, and file a couple of provisional patents on other things I have come up with. Ill make an appointment with this company, and pursue a licensing agreement. Once an agreement is reached (maybe with this company, maybe not, but it should go well) Ill mention a few of the other ideas vaguely of course, and the fact that Ill be pursuing patents on them as well, and see what they think.
At this point, Ill have to play it by ear, as it could go several ways. Im sure there are scenarios I cant even imagine at this point. Im going to concentrate on the first idea, and the licensing for it. And this ( Potent Fastlane #2- Innovation, page 246) is one of the specific ways the book mentions as a fastlane approach, or "Rapid Wealth: The Interstates".
Im excited, because one deal can be the start of several. And if one is lucrative, 6 or 7 should be downright crazy lucrative. Of course, Im also a "dont count your chickens before they hatch" kind of guy.

We will see. Im cautiously optimistic at this point. And Ill post updates and results here.
 
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Likwid24

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Whatever you do, Don't file a provisional patent for your other ideas until you are sure you can absolutely commit to that idea. As you probably know, provisional patents only last for 1 year then you have to file for the patent. So you would use that year to determine if your idea is doable and actually needs a patent. Not all products may necessarily need a patent. It can be a waste of time and money. It can get very very expensive. Remember if you did your homework you'll know that only 2% of patents are ever actually turned into reality and only about 1% make it to store shelves. Sometimes patents are not worth it unless it is something completely new and innovative. I've done a ton of research on this and hope you did your homework too. If you want you can go read my thread "My path to the fastlane". I'm developing a product too and also have many future products I hope to develop. Read my story and you'll understand why I'm only getting a provisional patent. Good Luck and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

Oh yea one more thing- look into getting your product manufactured in China. You can probably get it for a fraction of the cost that you can the U.S.
 

DrummerDad

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Thank you for the input.

I have done research and studied. Ive been working on this thing for awhile, almost 2 full years. I did get input at the trade show, and by talking to anyone who would be in this particular industry. Retailers, professionals, and of course the magazine guys. It is unique, and innovative, and it fulfills a need. The item gives the user a precious commodity; time, by allowing them to perform a necessary, but time consuming and tedious task, when its more convenient.

Im still learning of course, but Ive learned so much up to this point, it would take a catastrophic failure to derail me. I started this road like everyone else, with little resolve. Now, my motto is : roadblocks are mearly a means to direct me on to a path I didnt notice before. Alot of the people Ive encountered to this point are like, " what do you mean we cant get a loan for start-up costs? I guess we cant do it then", or "what do you mean we have to buy 500 pcs? I guess we cant do it then", or my favorite " thats not the way its supposed to be done, so its not going to work".

As for the production, Im going to attempt to pass that off to someone else. And for the first time in months, I feel at ease with my direction. Im not worrying about numbers, profits, costs, margins, or any of the hundreds of details I would need to be looking over, things I have no experience in. I have a tangible plan, one I feel will be not only successful, but profitable. I know I still have alot to do, and Im working on it. Ill make the next direction change whenever its needed.

Im working with an attorney on the patent, and he is advising me as to when to file for what, and when and where to mention the item. Ive learned a few lessons on provisional patents, some the hard way. I look forward to the insight provided by some of the members here on situations I have yet to encounter. Maybe someday, we could exchange war stories. After we both get where we want to go, of course.
 

DrummerDad

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Well, I have some updates to post.

First, Im in the middle of the patenting of my item. The bad news is, this item was patented in 1984. It has expired, so I wont be able to patent the specific feature I was hoping for. However, the attorney and I think we can patent two or three other specific features, and still make this thing work. Ill post as soon as I find out.

Secondly, I got a phone call today from the guy I was going to deal with previously about producing these items. We talked, and I explained I was worried, especially since he didnt contact me for weeks. Well, excuses aside, he appologized, and sent me pictures of the item, already made. He had one already made for approval. And it looks pretty good.

It appears as if we are back on for production. The good news is, I should have one in hand in 2 weeks. Then we can make a few more and go to the trade shows, for pre-orders. The bad news is, I have alot more headaches coming. I had expected to pass the headaches on to a manufacturer, but that would have left me with the usual 5-7% for licensing. Now with this arrangment, itll be 51%, but Im responsible for the quality. Im not going to have to worry about the production side though. He has agreed to handle the financial ( up front costs of setting up the machines and the materials) and production aspects (pending an actual written agreement, which will be started next week) and I will handle the trade show, industry, and sales side.

And, I will still work on the other items, and maybe license some of them to the major manufacturer I was going to work with. I have some ideas based on some of my designs that would work on their existing products as well. Just have to file the patents for them first. And this time, I did my searches before getting in the middle of alot of work. I have three or four things that are clean, and should be patentable, maybe more.

Hopefully I will know more soon. My trade show is in July. But if I miss it, I there is a different one in October. After that, its magazine time. Ill keep the thread updated.
 
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DrummerDad

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I got my parts today, and I must say Im impressed. The finish is a bit rough, but for the first piece, its nice. There are a few descrepencies, but Ill have to wait to get to work, where I have some machinists scales, to see if its on my end of the dimensions, or if they just missed. But so far, there arent any major flaws. Its crazy; Im looking at a piece that I designed, and fussed over, and worked on every little detail for weeks. It was built in another country, and shipped here for my final approval. I cant believe it, but this is going to happen.

So, Thursday I go to see the lawyer, and meet another potential investor he said is interested in getting this thing on the market. I have to get the agreements for the arrangement between me and the guy in California written up and settled as well. After that, hopefully Ill get word from the patent lawyer, and I can post alot more information to make a little more sense of this, if anybody is interested.

July is the show, and its looking like I might just make it. Then Im going to go one step further for the show in October, and really blow some minds. Its going to be a busy next couple of months.
 

Likwid24

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Sounds awesome. Can't wait to hear what happens. Speed ++
 
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DrummerDad

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Thanks guys
Update:

Had a meeting with the attorney, and we discussed the partnership. We talked over a few items, and I agreed to send the details to my guy in California for his approval or disapproval. Basically, we are going to start a seperate entity, that will be incorporated, and use both our original companies to make this happen.
So my company will design and engineer the item(s), and hold the patents and IP. I will license it to this newly founded Corporation, in which we are both 50% partners (after costs). Then we will contract his manufacturing company to have them made. I am over quality, sales, advertising and anything industry specific. He is over manufacturing, and all the logstics of filling the orders.

Personally, I think itll work great. This way, I have them made, and can hold them to a quality standard under license, which was a concern of mine. I also keep the IP. He is covering (including upfront expenses) the manufacturing, which is the part that worried me more than anything. I can also continue working on my other new ideas, and possibly license them through this company, when I get them further along. If his manufacturing infrastructure doesnt have the capabilities I need for a future project, I can license through someone else, or even possibly help set up the capability in his company, as another investment. And I know he will possibly be getting paid both ways; his cut of the new company, as well as a cut from the manufacturing of the product through his present company contacts. It doesnt bother me, and I think it was one of the reasons he has taken me so serious, when everyone else blew me off.

Also he (or his company) will be loaning the new company money, to help cover the expenses I have been paying for out of pocket. Trade shows, legal fees ($200 an hr for a lawyer, holy freekin' crap) and advertising, etc.. So, I can stop running up the credit cards, and borrowing from the bank. The wife will be thrilled.

There are a few details we have to work out still, but it looks like we are going to do this thing for sure. I still have more details to discuss with the patant lawyer, and he has asked me to keep quiet till we have paperwork in the mail at least.

I should be able to make my show in July, hopefully with a few examples in hand, and the ability to take some orders. Ill keep this updated. Things are moving fast now.
 

milliona

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Speed is for those who are moving and getting their dreams materialized.

Thanks for sharing. My friend ran into same situation over his provisionally-patented revolutionary product. He could take some tips from you; you're doing a great job!

I feel excited for you. This is what happens when you are willing to share and don't just keep all of the profits to yourself. Lol. :p
 
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DrummerDad

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Not much to report as far as progress. I hate waiting on all this crap.

Both lawyers are on vacation(both, how does that happen?), but I got the LLC papers filed before they left. I will be flying to California to meet personally with my business partner, and go over some details in mid July. Should be able to iron out the partnership specifics, and work on getting a few minor issues with the product ironed out.

And I ruined the one and only product we had by trying to powdercoat it. Evidently powdercoat doesnt like cast parts. Oh well, it looks like crap, but it works. I have to miss my July show over this mistake, which is killing me. In the long run it wont actually hurt me though, as there is a bigger show in November. Its also more specific to my market. And before then Ill have 10 new ones to get to the magazines for review of the product, and we should have it in print before the November show. Looks like December this year might be a little busy.

On a side note, I will also start a new job in July. I know. Not very fastlane, but I like to hedge my bets. If this things takes off slower than expected, or not at all, I still have bills to pay, and a family to take care of. Plus, its just a beter job, in a better company, with alot more future security. Plus I HATE working in a family owned small business.
 

DrummerDad

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A few updates. Didnt want anyone to think I had fell by the way side. This stuff just takes a whole lot longer than I thought it would.

We are officially patent pending, and waiting on a final set of updates on the drawings. A little confusion on my part had me thinking I was pending earlier, but I wasnt. I found a few things that need to be changed at the last minute. After we get these, its in the manufacturers hands to get me 2 perfect, updated examples for approval. Then its off to the show. This should happen (fingers crossed) by November, which is when the trade show is.

We have all the papers in, and are waiting for the above to happen, so we can go over the business details. Nothing major. We seem to agree on everything so far. Shouldnt be too much hairsplitting, or anything. I expect this to go smooth.

I have in my possession three examples, which I had to work on a bit to make work. This is where I discovered a few issues. Nothing major, just typical oversights, or missed dimensions. A few design issues, and a few manufacturing issues. Im glad we are as close as we are. But Im not giving an inferior product the green light. Id rather wait a few more months, and spend a little more money, and get it right.

Once we get the final patent papers in, with all the updates, and I go to a show, Ill post pictures, and more details. Im just being cautious at this point. We are protected under US laws, but as alot of you know most countries dont respect US patent laws. Some countries might even encourage patent infringement. And of course a patent is never guaranteed. The lawyer assured me that there are several unique features, which should be patentable. But its also a government thing. Weve done the searches, and filed. Now we wait for the letter of denial, and start our arguments.

The hardest part for me is the waiting. Holy crap it drives me crazy. Everything takes way to long. I should already be well on my way. But Im sitting here, waiting on other people. Noone seems to be in a hurry, or even slightly concerned that I have dates to meet. Its one thing Im going to work on. Taking control of my time, even when its in the hands of others.
 
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InMotion

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What category is your invention in? Houseware, construction, toys? just curious.
 
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DrummerDad

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What category is your invention in? Houseware, construction, toys? just curious.

Id rather not say just yet. We are still working out the manufacturing and design bugs, and we arent ready to hit the market. Nothing personal, but there are people here with the money and connections to grab someones idea, and run with it. Ive worked to hard to let that happen. Keep checking back, and once we are 100% sure we can be ready, Ill reveal everything. Pictures, descriptions, maybe even web links, if that allowable.


Another update. I contacted a local group to do some real world testing. They can put it through more testing in 2 months than I can in a year. We had found a few descrepencies that had been overlooked when I got the last few sets. So, the design has changed, again. We are beefing it up alot in a few places, and looking into casting it with better material. Dont want to be selling junk. So, the CAD guy is re-doing the drawings, and then we will see how that goes.

And, my Business partner dropped a huge bombshell. A good one though. He has the means to set up a meeting with one of the largest names in our industry. We arent sure if the guy will want to be involved, but with an endorsement from him, we would be set. Imagine if you were in real estate. This guy would be Donald Trump. HUGE.
He has several friends who know the guy personally, and he has met him on a few occasions, and had lunch with him. The guy is know for using his considerable professional/celebrity status and money to invest in start ups, and side projects. I wish I could reveal his name, but that would reveal everything, so I cant. I guess it can be a teaser to keep people checking back in.

So we are still going forward. We just keep finding new obstacles to circumnavigate. We wont make the November show, but if we can get an endorsment from our possible contact, it would help more than any show. And I dont want to attend another show, without a perfect product. Things are getting crazy now....
 

SuccessInMind

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That's really awesome DrummerDad! I'm also working on an invention and I'm at the beginning stages right now. I have the concept and have done some very amateur drawings of the invention. Since I don't know how to design it, I'm currently looking for designers who can help me make a prototype. As someone who is well-knowledgeable in the world of inventions, I'd love the opportunity to pick your brain sometime. Good luck and hope to hear more about your progress!
 

DrummerDad

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Id love to help, if I can. Im no expert, by any stretch. And part of the process is learning. What is working for me, might not work for you. But I can give you a little general advice.

Do a patent search first. Go to the US Patent website, and do a thorough search. You dont want to spend time and money on something thats already patented. Also look for specific features that could be patented. For instance if you are working on a standard pencil, make sure the eraser, or one of the main materials used, the general shape, or even the lead ingredients arent owned by someone else. It should take you a couple of days to do this search.

If that comes back clean, then file for a provisional patent. That gives you "patent pending" status, and buys you a year to actually file. Then its up to you to figure out a direction. I can tell you, depending on the complexity of what you are doing, a year isnt alot of time. But before you start talking to anyone, about design or drawings, get some legal protection. At least a non-disclosure agreement.

By direction, I mean, are you going to pay to have it made yourself, or license it to someone who already has infrastructure in place? It will make a difference. And I think a working model or at least a prototype helps get the point across. But the most important thing is flexibility, and staying focused. You have to adapt, and stay focused in light of a serious lack of interest. Because noone else is going to have the vision and drive you have about this. You will face alot of complacent people along the way, who couldnt care less if you make it or not. Just brush it off, and keep going. Good luck.
 
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lleone

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Looking forward to seeing the final product drummerdad!

By the way, besides the US Patent website, I would recommend Google Patent. Google has the entire US Patent information, but you'll notice that it's a lot easier doing a search on Google Patent then on the US Patent site.

Why am I not surprised.
 

Autonomust

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Looking forward to seeing the final product drummerdad!

By the way, besides the US Patent website, I would recommend Google Patent. Google has the entire US Patent information, but you'll notice that it's a lot easier doing a search on Google Patent then on the US Patent site.

Why am I not surprised.

Agreed thats what I use and its much faster :D
 

SuccessInMind

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I'll definitely get an NDA before I meet with some designers as well as do the patent search. I think they also have a patent search on Google now, which will make it a lot easier. The search on the US patent website is a lot more difficult to navigate through.

Thanks for your advice DrummerDad! Very much appreciated :)
 
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Mike A.B.

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Awesome thread drummerdad! As soon as you hit market, could you share some details about your invention? Some pics maybe? =)

If I'm guessing it has to do with drummer hardware how far off am I? ;) Something like a stand or a different kind of pedal for example?:smx4:
 

DrummerDad

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I got the drawings updated, and fixed the issues on the design end. Now its back to the manufacturer. Im hoping we can get a few new examples by the end of the year. Thatll give me time to get ready for the January show. We might have a website up by then also, if so Ill post a link if its not against the rules.

Thanks for all the positive comments. As for questions on what industry, yes it is percussion equipment, but its not a pedal. I do have a pedal that Im working on though, among other things. Itll be unlike anything else, but Im not going to give away anything until Im close to finished.
 

Mike A.B.

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Take a look at the demon drive by Pearl, that's one awesome pedal! Great design, great technology, great product... Maybe it'll give you some idea's! =)

- Mike
 
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ProfessorSpeed

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I'll definitely get an NDA before I meet with some designers as well as do the patent search. I think they also have a patent search on Google now, which will make it a lot easier. The search on the US patent website is a lot more difficult to navigate through.

Thanks for your advice DrummerDad! Very much appreciated :)
Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I'm a mechanical designer by trade. Lots of experience in machining, fabrication, and assembly. Some plastics and composites experience. -Happy to help a fellow fastlaner-
 

DrummerDad

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A little update:

I had a heart to heart with my business partner the other day. Nothing bad, but he has been putting our stuff aside, to work on projects that are actually making him money. Not that I blame him, but an agreement is an agreement. So, we aired out a few concerns, and got back to business. I think it will work out fine now. It just goes to show you though, if you dont work your plan, and force it to grow, noone else will. Its in your hands.

So, the sand castings we did had some issues, not the least of which was an apparent outgassing from the large pores left in the metal. I couldnt powdercoat it, or have it chromed, or anodized either. So, we are looking at investment casting or die casting. This is where I have to soley rely on my partner, as I know nothing about the processes.....yet. But he has contacted 5 of the companies he deals with on this (and I am receiving the emails now too, so I can track problems and requests for more information) , and as soon as I get my 3D drawings back, and sent out we should be back on track. So we are back to square 2 or 3 at least. But we have learned alot about what we can and cant do with this product, so its not a total loss. Its just money right?

My biggest frustration to date has to be the drawings. I am completely dependant on someone else to make these things, and he isnt very reliable. Also, we discuss what I want done, and I have about a 50% chance of it being that way. The kid (well hes maybe 25, but acts like a 15 year old sometimes) just does things his way, and then short cuts the drawings, leaving out details. And hes always late. Hes great with AutoCAD, but its useless if you ask me. I cant even see my own drawings, or use them. He has to save them as PDFs, which pisses him off because "it ruins the quality", and I dont have autoCAD. I only have a DWG viewer. Its a real pain in the a$$. I try and get literature made or stickers, banners, things like that, and I cant. I paid for drawings, and noone else can use them, or even open them. Its just stupid. I hate AutoCAD. Proprietary bullshit.

I think Ive decided after this trip, Im just going to have to get some 3d software and learn how to use it. Ive been looking at the Alibre Professional, and I really like it. I did the free trial and it works great. Plus the Professional suite does everything. And its alot cheapr than AutoCAD, and easier to use. I can even send a file to someone, and they can look at it and even slightly manipulate the file, without having to buy the software for theirself. What a concept. I am going to wait till we start making money on this project first, of course. But I waste alot of time arguing with the CAD guy, especially when Im not getting what I want anyway. Ive already spent enough money on drawings, and time for that matter, to have bought the professional suite from Alibre designs. Ahhh the things you learn along the way....

We have set a goal of trying to make the January show. But realistically with the retooling setback, I think its not going to happen. If not, we will try the show in July. Its driving distance from here, and almost a third of the cost anyway. And there is alot to do between now and then, with cards, flyers, website stuff, product brochures, press releases, etc..and everything hinges on getting useable samples from the manufacturer for photos and testing. We requested quotes for 1,5,10,50,100, and 500. Also this would include 2 or 3 to be submitted for approval first. So we shall see. I hate it when everything is in someone elses hands. :smx4:
 

DrummerDad

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Update



A few things have changed. I got the drawings finally. And Ive hired another guy for CAD work. I cant keep waiting for a friend to get around to it. Plus he complains and whines the whole time. Then he shortcuts me. So, Im not dealing with him anymore. I cant afford to be on his time table.
We sent quotes to a few shops for investment casting, and die casting, and didnt get back any usable quotes yet. So, we may be going with the original sand casting shop. There were issues with the item, but overall it was really close. We talked to the company, and they assured us they can fix the issues. So, we asked for three new sets, with the current revisions, and issues fixed. We will see what we get in about a month.
Im covered up in emails. My partner has been sending everyone to me, or copying me on the correspondance. Which is good. Not complaining. I like being in the middle. It allows me a little more control.
Im waiting on the new rings so we can get pictures for the website. I already registered the name, and bought the webspace. I guess I got ahead of myself, but I needed to register the name anyway. As soon as I get the new rings, Ill get the site up and running.

There is no way we will make the January show. Im pushing for the July show. That should be doable. I just hope we dont have any more setbacks. Theres alot to do between now and then.
 
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DrummerDad

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Update:

Its been awhile, and I wish I could say we've made alot of progress, but unfortunatley we havent. My business partner wants to drag his feet, and its driving me nuts. Ive been at this for almost 2 years, its time to get it done.

Anyway, I have officially filed the patent, since the provisional will expire this year. I should know something in a few months on that. Until then we are just patent pending. I should receive a set of these things this week, with the final changes for approval. After that, I can start the other things Ive been waiting on. Product brochures, and cards, a website, maybe a video on youtube, register for the trade show, whatever we can do to get it out, and ready for the show in July.

Rest assured though, Im learning volumes about what to do and what not to do. And how to side step potential obstacles. The next product I produce will be different altogether. Im at the mercy of other people at this point, which SUCKS. But I will get this thing done, and move to the next item. As soon as I get the new items, Ill put together a longer post, with pictures, and a description. Im anxious to go public. I hate this cloak and dagger crap.
 

DrummerDad

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Update


I know its been awhile since I updated. Ive been waiting on the patent office, and the lawyer. And to be honest I lost my motivation. When every door closes in front of you, its hard to keep going. Plus 60 hr work weeks, and a sidelined computer make it hard to get anything done. But enough self pitty, here is where I am now

The deal with the manufacturer went away. He sent me three more sets of the item, and they looked like hell. I told him we needed to make them better, and he said that was the best they could do. We agreed to close our agreement, and end the partnership. It was on good terms, thankfully. But its still dead.

I received the patent FINALLY. Im not going to post the number, but it is patented. So the secrecy is no longer necessary. So, the website to view the item is http://www.pdsdrums.com They aren't for sale yet, because I still cant get a manufacturer that will make small runs. Ill explain later what they are and what they do, if the website isn't clear enough.

At this point Im left with two options, as far as I can see.
The first is the one Im currently pursuing. I have a contact who has agreed to mentor me so to speak. He recently had his invention licensed by Gibralter, which is a big name in percussion equipment. He is helping me with advice, direction, and possibly a high level contact.
The second option is to pursue investors. I have no clue how to go about this. I had a friend at work suggest Kick Starter. But I don't know if that's a feasible option. Im thinking to actually make a production run of at least 5000 units, Im going to need $250k. That wont pay for them Im sure, but itll get everything started.
As for production, if I can get a few hundred people interested enough to email me, and ask for them to be produced, I can take those requests to a large company and use them as leverage. But again my thinking is I would need in the neighborhood of maybe 1-3k requests. Im going to make a you tube video with a link to the site. And a face book page, for what that's worth. Maybe some people will be interested.


The invention;

I call it the Quick Change Head Assembly. Ive tried to find a more clever name, but I cant.

How it works;

Normally, you mount a drum head to the top of the shell, and use the rim and lugs to hold it down and tune it. The problem is when the head busts, you have to take all of those lugs out, typically numbering between 6-12 per head. This takes about 30 minutes or more, depending on what tools you use, and how picky you are about the tune.

With the QCHA, you can have extra heads already pre-tuned in the topset. The base ring bolts on in place of the original head, and uses the existing hardware. No modifications are necessary. Then the head gets bolted in the top set, and tuned like normal. You then just pop the top set on, with the pretuned head, with a small twist. Sort of like a jelly jar lid. It takes seconds to remove the head, and replace it with another topset. You can have different heads, by tune, color, texture or by whatever means you wish to differentiate with. It takes seconds, not minutes.

Check out the website. It might not make sense when reading it, if you arent familiar with drums. Ill try and answer any questions.
 
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Vigilante

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