Cryptocurrency a scam?

[MJ DeMarco]

I started as a kid with less than 3 figures and have made it to well over 5 figures since then something I never imagined being possible at this age.

FYI: Just because $X,XXX turned into $XX,XXX doesn't mean something isn't a scam. All ponzi's start that way. Not saying cryto is a scam, just pointing out that a "return" doesn't validate anything.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[AFMKelvin]

Bitcoin and the major coins are not scams. They have teams behind them working on them and they have a purpose.

That been said there is a lot of scam coins out there. There are over 3000 different cryptocurrencies. Most of them are scams because anyone can create a new coin. They create a coin, hype it up to get it in a reputable exchange. Once it gets listed on an exchange it gets pumped than immediately dumped.

Honestly I wouldn't listen to the old timers regarding cryptos. The technology is too new and it's just getting started.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

I am fully aware of people getting very rich off of cryptocurrencies and it's constantly being touted as a great way to make money. I've done extensive research on it, especially Bitcoin, and still find myself very weary and distrustful of it. ... what do you guys think of cryptocurrencies, in particular Bitcoin? I'm curious. Thanks.

Full disclosure, I am heavily involved in crypto. My Fastlane business is essentially selling shovels to the miners.

You are smart to be wary. This is a VERY technical field which is extremely reliant on good code and smart business sense. The majority of people invested in crypto have no clue what they're buying. Dive into the forums and you'll see people clamoring about HODL and "when moon." They are practically screaming "I don't know what the hell I'm doing!"

At this point in time I would recommend institutional investors to steer clear of new entrants and casual purchases. Unless you're familiar with the company involved, the risk is enormous. I'd say roughly 95% of ICOs have been a complete bust. This isn't to say they are necessarily a scam, though there are plenty around.

Virtually every major tech and financial company on earth is exploring blockchain. Central banks, global behemoth banks, tech giants, even companies like Walmart and Maersk have projects. The potential for market disruption is massive, but still uncertain. It is very similar to the adoption of the internet. At first nobody really knew how to capitalize on the technology. Just an an "e" to something (ePets, eTravel, etc.) and you've got yourself a winner.

Bottom line is that most investors have no clue how to take this development because they don't understand it. Sure, it's a public ledger protected by distributed networking and cryptographic keys. Easy enough. But understanding how to utilize it and why it might be better than a currently existing technology is a bit more complicated. Even worse, what makes one implementation better or worse than another?

If your clients are interested in blockchain, tell them to invest in IBM or Microsoft or Google or any of the other very successful and inventive companies out there who are actively working with blockchain.

 

[rogue synthetic]

This thread looks to have become one of those train-wrecks of ego that are becoming par for the course around here lately, so I haven't read most of the posts. Must be a full moon or something.

Instead, here's an interesting book on Bitcoin I just finished a few days ago:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119473861/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

Ammous leans just a smidge too far into the Menger/Mises/Rothbard school of economics for my liking. He's right on the knife's edge between dogmatic ideology and fascinating argument.

Just where I like my intellectuals. (What, you thought you had to agree with everybody to find their ideas interesting? Ha!)

His case is that centrally-planned monetary policy since the gold standard was dropped -- unofficially for the first time around World War I, more formally in 1973 -- has created a whole lot of rubbish to gum up the machinery of democratic and capitalist societies.

Bitcoin is the cure for the fever because it represents an ideal monetary supply, sitting at a sweet spot ratio between the stock -- the available supply -- and the flow -- the amounts newly created.

Gold has some obvious limitations, being that bars of it are dense, usually heavy and highly non-portable. Bitcoin, that's just code. And code is easy to move. In return you get a medium of exchange which isn't subject to wild inflation, or goofy forex rules, and highly resists even attempts of central planners, private or public, to crack down on it.

The most interesting point I thought was his case for the expansion of time horizons which stable currencies allow. Here in our world of fiat money, we're encouraged to spend. Part of that is Keynes 101, where spending drives consumption drives Economy. This being a conscious decision, it means that money tends to devalue itself over time, so there is little incentive to save.

This ripples out well past your personal savings account or life-ruining piles of debt. It also discourages innovation on the Big Projects, the real pyramid-building, civilization-changing stuff. Bad money has encouraged not only flagrant spending but short-term horizons on the part of the innovators, the big corporates and even the cognitive capital -- the entrepreneurs, the top 1% of the IQ bracket.

Instead of designing jetpacks, they go into finance... an industry that would be a shadow of the current Leviathan with a stable global currency.

The build apps instead of blue-sky thinking. We got iPhones and Twitter instead of nuclear rockets and bases on Europa.

Is Ammous right? It's a tempting argument. I'm no economist so I can't comment on that side of the fence.

But I think most of us can relate to the feeling that something has gone deeply wrong. We haven't just seen old ways of life -- the education, the career, the house and the family -- slowly evaporate. The old dreams have gone with them. The Unscripted life attracts us for a reason.

Of course that feeling of unease makes for easy pickings when it comes time to explain it. And we humans, we love some stories to make sense of chance. I couldn't help but feel like Ammous let his Austrian flag fly a bit too wildly when he blamed everything on bad money.

A good rule of thumb: neat-and-tidy explanations of history that look too simple usually are.

It's a neat summary of the what and the why of Bitcoin, and how it makes some pretty unique connections between monetary policy, sociology, and plain old human desires. If he's right, there are some gems that aspiring cryptocurrency investors ought to be on the look out for, too.

If you don't mind a little ideological saber-rattling and polemic, it's a thought-provoker of a book, well worth the read.

 

[Maxboost]

I was replying to your comment that "Cryptocurrency is a religion at this point". Which isn't the case when they are actively being used to transform the majority of the world's industries. People's Insurance Company of China (PICC), one of the largest insurers globally with $126 billion total assets is opting to embrace blockchain technology with the help of DNV GL and VeChain

This is still a strawman argument and does not address Jordan Belfort's main arguments about crypto currency. I don't even think you watched the video.

Belfort specifically states whenever you buy any crypto, you are not buying a stake in block chain technology. Bit coin and block chain technology are 2 separate things. Block chain technology is OPEN source and FREEE which ANYONE can utilize. Block Chain Technology is great and will have an impact on technology which Belfort is a fan of. Satoshi never trademarked Block Chain which would have changed this whole argument.

China and India have banned Crypto.

Belfort's other argument is also sound and that is Central Banks will NEVER give up control of their money supply to a third party, we are already seeing that with China, India and 3rd world nations.

 

[Laughingman21]

I'm amazed how many times in this thread people backing crypto currency's use the terms crypto and blockchain interchangabley as if they're the same thing.

 

[Bryan James]

I manage a few investment portfolios for clients and read up on business models and financial statements all the time. Personally, I'm a value investor and suggest the same for clients if they have enough money to "play" with. I am fully aware of people getting very rich off of cryptocurrencies and it's constantly being touted as a great way to make money. I've done extensive research on it, especially Bitcoin, and still find myself very weary and distrustful of it. Warren Buffet says to stay the hell away from it and Jordan Belfort, a scammer himself, has called it a scam. I know that both of these sources have been wrong before and their beliefs are not the gospel truth, but what do you guys think of cryptocurrencies, in particular Bitcoin? I'm curious. Thanks.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[The Abundant Man]

I have no idea how they work so I never bothered.

 

[Timmy C]

I manage a few investment portfolios for clients and read up on business models and financial statements all the time. Personally, I'm a value investor and suggest the same for clients if they have enough money to "play" with. I am fully aware of people getting very rich off of cryptocurrencies and it's constantly being touted as a great way to make money. I've done extensive research on it, especially Bitcoin, and still find myself very weary and distrustful of it. Warren Buffet says to stay the hell away from it and Jordan Belfort, a scammer himself, has called it a scam. I know that both of these sources have been wrong before and their beliefs are not the gospel truth, but what do you guys think of cryptocurrencies, in particular Bitcoin? I'm curious. Thanks.

Cryptocurrency and blockchain technology is in now way a scam.

In saying that it is a new space and there are alot of scammers in that space as it is new they take advantage of the fact people don't know alot and can create scam projects.

Like when the internet came out in sure there was alot of scam internet companies.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[bringitnow28329]

In November and December 2017 the whole world was interested in Crypto as BTC was hitting an extremely over extended range at 20k. People call it a scam because it dropped but what they don't understand is that asset prices don't just go straight up. Even in bubbles you need the bubbles to pop or at least temporarily deflate (which is what has happen between January and August 218) to entice new market participants. Cryptocurrencies are like commodities which don't pay dividends and don't generate any profits and for that reason their only method of growth is through price appreciation. They are 100% based on supply and demand. The general public does not understand what this means. Only traders really understand that even though the underlying technologies behind some of these cryptos could revolutionize, at this point in time, besides using them for purchasing illegal goods, there only real purpose is to be used as a trading a vehicle. A trading vehicle is how traders take money from the pockets of either other traders, or the uninformed and under educated. It really doesn't matter whether it's a stock, a bond, a futures contract, a currency, etc. Real traders analyze statistics and other metrics which help them to quantify optimal times to be involved, either long or short, in risky assets. It is only at these times that it makes financial to participate in something like a volatile cryptocurrency because this is when they become more predictable. A person with no trading experience or market knowledge with think there is no such thing as predictability but the reality is pattern occur day in and day out in the financial markets in all types of assets. This is because of both basic human nature and also computer algo's which are programmed in a specific way. Asset prices are not based on rational reasons. The bottom line is it doesn't matter if you think cryptos are a scam. Sure there are many lower priced ones just like there are many scam penny stock companies, but it doesn't make a difference if you understand that you can't compare a crypto to something like buying and holdng Apple stock. Apple can be volatile. It can go through earnings, miss it's whisper number and drop 10% in seconds. Crptos are more volatile and can drop 10% on a daily basis just because traders are using them purely to make money in the short term.

The bottom line: There is a huge difference between and investment and a trading vehicle. If you invest in something volatile like a crypto then you need to be fully aware that there's a good chance you will lose all your money. If you invest in Apple stock there's an infinitely small chance you will lose all your money, but you also are never going to earn 50% in one day as you could potentially experience in a crypto. Everything in the market is based on the potential risk and returns that you can achieve from a specific asset type.

 

[Ninjakid]

Maybe it's like those gold coins in John Wick, only digital

 

[GoGetter24]

If your clients are interested in blockchain, tell them to invest in IBM or Microsoft or Google or any of the other very successful and inventive companies out there who are actively working with blockchain.

Exactly.

Note that while most tech companies went bust in 2000, that bubble still energized companies like Amazon and PayPal. They came through it fine -- because they had solid fundamentals.

If you think it's as simple as "invest blockchain", and then randomly spew you money all over anyone who uses the word "blockchain", you're going to be annihilated, while your peers who bet based on solid fundamentals and investment principles get rich.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

These two posts are excellent examples of the misunderstanding and mystique surrounding blockchain. If you'll allow me, I'd like to make a couple of comments regarding each and follow up with my opinion as to the future.

Bitcoin is tearing away the veil of fiat currency.

It is future beyond the ruinous effects of inflation and central bank bubbles that have wreaked havoc and allowed Wall Street bankers to get rich, while robbing everyday citizens of their savings and opportunities.

I understand the sentiment, but this is a great example of Utopian (or "cultish" if you will) thinking. While there absolutely exists a protectionist barrier in economic policies around the globe, blockchain is highly unlikely to change the position of governments. Governments will always use whatever tools they have available to them to retain power, blockchain included.

Precious metals as money is an anachronistic and obsolete concept. People in this camp tend to erroneously believe that gold and/or silver has always been used as money throughout history. The truth is that the common medium of exchange has varied widely throughout time, geography, and custom. In many ways, cryptocurrencies share the same flaws of precious metals. First and foremost is the inability to inflate or deflate on demand. It amazes me how many people believe this to be a pernicious ability of the banking sector (my own school quite possibly first among the detractors) without bothering to look at the implications of NOT having the capacity for money creation/destruction.

But there are a couple of good ideas in this post as well:

It is an attempt at freedom from the surveillance state and money as a system of control. ... It's a way to exchange value, instantly, between any two people without consent from a corrupt bank, Interact, or a self serving bank.

I'll address these points in relation to the post by masterneme.

Cryptos & Blockchain are the MLM of tech, they don't do anything better than what we already have, early adopters and top tier people are making gazillions, those who are jumping into the bandwagon now are doing it because it's "a good business opportunity", their arguments are usually about "how X company/person made a lot of money" or about "the huge future potential" or about "bringing the system down" and if you say something they don't like they'll tell you that "you don't understand how it works" or that "it's here to stay" or something like that, cult-like behavior that you can see in any MLM organization.

The post starts out fairly strong. I generally compare blockchain tech to the internet, but this works at a very basic level. A very large portion of the entrants into blockchain tech do not add any value, as he so gruffly pointed out. The dot-com bubble cost investors something to the tune of $5 trillion. Why? Proponents were overly optimistic about the benefits and use value of internet businesses. Same thing here. In fact, we can find many cases of almost identical claims then and now.

However...

The tech is not a scam but it's nothing special, it will be with us forever the same way torrents are still around but they didn't substitute the way we transfer data.

Let's change this a bit. "[Blockchain] tech is not a scam but it's nothing special, it will be with us forever the same way the internet is still around but didn't substitute the way we transfer data."

The internet has been one of the most massively disrupting technologies in recent decades in spite of the colossal crash as noted above. Amazon just became the second business to hit a $1 trillion value. It is ludicrous to think that a large business could survive today without an internet presence.

So what does this mean?

Blockchain has very specific benefits which are, to date, unmet by any other technology. Among the most important are distributed networking and immutability. These two aspects can potentially cause dramatic effects on political power, cronyism, voting, property rights, privacy, money, data mining, and countless other areas.

For example, recent history in Ukraine and Syria has shown that governments do not hesitate to block internet traffic and the reporting of news. Blockchain efforts are underway to provide meshnets which would distribute data unable to be altered or constrained by oppressive governments.

Voting machines are notoriously untrustworthy due to the capacity to be hacked. Blockchain is a very reasonable solution to the problems of unverifiable databases.

Property rights in many third world nations are highly uncertain due to issues of poor records handling, corruption, and simple errors. Blockchain solutions would create a publicly verifiable and cheap solution to the recording of property transfers.

The World Bank has determined that roughly half of the world's population falls into the category of "unbanked." These are individuals who have no access to modern bank accounts and/or credit systems. This means that they are virtually unable to access the global trade markets or make meaningful capital improvements to businesses or personal property. Cryptocurrencies are more than capable (and in fact already are in many areas) of addressing this gap.

And on and on...

Is blockchain the glorious solution to everything? No, that's 42. But it'll have some pretty amazing disruptions to the economy.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

The whole crypto is behaving like it is designed for: anonymity.

Very few cryptocurrencies are anonymous. In fact, it has turned out to be quite difficult to make anonymous yet verifiable transactions work properly. The entire premise of a blockchain is that you have an immutable and publicly verifiable ledger. In other words, anyone and everyone can see and track every single transaction.

Granted, the fact that relatively few public keys can be fixed to any particular person or company adds to the appearance of anonymity, but this by no means makes them anonymous.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Chinobey]

I manage a few investment portfolios for clients and read up on business models and financial statements all the time. Personally, I'm a value investor and suggest the same for clients if they have enough money to "play" with. I am fully aware of people getting very rich off of cryptocurrencies and it's constantly being touted as a great way to make money. I've done extensive research on it, especially Bitcoin, and still find myself very weary and distrustful of it. Warren Buffet says to stay the hell away from it and Jordan Belfort, a scammer himself, has called it a scam. I know that both of these sources have been wrong before and their beliefs are not the gospel truth, but what do you guys think of cryptocurrencies, in particular Bitcoin? I'm curious. Thanks.

A little over a year ago I joined this forum I have not been very active at all but I started as a kid with less than 3 figures and have made it to well over 5 figures since then something I never imagined being possible at this age. A ton of cryptocurrencies are scams but the top 25 at least are genuine and have a long way to go imho just do research on the coins is the developer active do they have a github etc. and decide for yourself but definitely better to get in sooner rather than later.

 

[Timmy C]

Jordan Belfort is a scam artist he has no credibility why would anyone listen to that fool. Warren buffet well Warren mcbuffet is wrong about aaallllooootttt of things, alot!

Respect your opinion but I think your off base a bit. When people get old brain stops working as good aswell harsh fact of life we will all be there eventually.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[DST]

I don't know, seems to have something going for it
IBM Blockchain World Wire – Cross-Border Payments Solution

 

[LittleWolfie]

. A ton of cryptocurrencies are scams but the top 25 at least are genuine .

This wrong, tether is a complete scam.

I was replying to your comment that "Cryptocurrency is a religion at this point". Which isn't the case when they are actively being used to transform the majority of the world's industries. People's Insurance Company of China (PICC), one of the largest insurers globally with $126 billion total assets is opting to embrace blockchain technology with the help of DNV GL and VeChain

BLockchain and cryptocurrney are different things. You can have a cryptocurreny free blockchain( Just keep the Merkel route indvisible) while ERC20 tokens, don't run on their own blockchain but on the EVM.

The two terms are confused a lot.

I've done extensive research on it, especially Bitcoin, and still find myself very weary and distrustful of it..

wonder how extensive your search was. Have you resarched Omni-Layer, cross-chain atomic swaps, side chains, smart contracts in depth? How many of the other crpyots have you compared ot bitcoin? How many potenital users have you tlaked to about it?

My theory is that blockhain and distributed ledgers are undervalued but all Crypto is undervalued.

 

[LittleWolfie]

I linked to a cryptocurrency

You said top 25 are not a scam. That top 25 includes tether which is a scam. So therefore the top 25 are not scam free. Most companies believe in blockchain not crypto, you seem to be confusing the two. It's not uncommon in tech. It's similar to conflaitng an invement in domains and Domain Name servers. One gives investors a stake in Pets.com - Wikipedia the other gives them a stake in Cisco Systems - Wikipedia

Which of those two would you prefer to own?

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Jonleehacker]

This thread reminds me of the red pill / blue pill scene in the Matrix.

Bitcoin is tearing away the veil of fiat currency.

It is future beyond the ruinous effects of inflation and central bank bubbles that have wreaked havoc and allowed Wall Street bankers to get rich, while robbing everyday citizens of their savings and opportunities.

It is an attempt at freedom from the surveillance state and money as a system of control.

Bitcoin is not an investment.

It's a hedge against inflation. It's a hedge against the fact the EVERY fiat currency, including the US dollar has an inevitable value of zero. Since 1971, when the US ended the gold standard, the US dollar has lost 97.5% of its purchasing power.

It's a way to exchange value, instantly, between any two people without consent from a corrupt bank, Interact, or a self serving bank.

The magnitude of change that a system of money like that makes possible in this world is staggering.

As someone who has studied economics for 20 years, the only conclusion that I have ever come to was that the world financial system is doomed. The only hope was holding gold, which is incredibly impractical.

Now Bitcoin picks up Gold's positive attributes (can't be inflated, is globally valued) and adds to it easy of division and easy of transfer to anyone anywhere in the world.

Finally hope for real change. Finally functional sound money.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Maxboost]

Oh look, more big companies getting involved with BLOCK CHAIN TECHNOLOGY.

VeChain Partners with Leading Chinese Energy Companies to Pilot Blockchain-Enabled Liquified Natural Gas Solution

"China's commitment to being a world leader in clean energy adoption and the reduction of carbon emissions has taken a significant step forward today with the announcement of a liquified natural gas (LNG) management solution, enabled by the VeChainThor Blockchain. The blockchain solution is the result of a new joint initiative between VeChain and two of China's leading energy and gas companies ENN Energy Holdings Limited and Shanghai Gas (Group) Co., Ltd."

fixed that for you....

Investing in block chain technology does not mean investing in cryptocurrency like bitcoin.

 

[Maxboost]

Cryptocurrency is a religion at this point.

So far no one has been able to refute Jordan Belfort's argument. It usually leads to Ad Hominem and Straw Mans. If you know his main arguments search everywhere for a counter refutation...You can't find a good one which is all you need to know about Crypto.

 

[Timmy C]

This is a bad way of looking at things and very typical of millennial mindsets. These old timers have seen it all and their main arguments are very good.

Crypto has always been a controversial investment choice, I always look at these types of investments on a risk reward ratio, and the risk is Weth it to have a small holding in the space, I don't get how anyone can argue that the tech is not legitement.

So let's see put a couple of thousand in a shitty index fund or stock with minimum upside, or crypto I chose crypto.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Maxboost]

Jordan Belfort is a scam artist he has no credibility why would anyone listen to that fool. Warren buffet well Warren mcbuffet is wrong about aaallllooootttt of things, alot!

Respect your opinion but I think your off base a bit. When people get old brain stops working as good aswell harsh fact of life we will all be there eventually.

Cryptocurrency is a religion at this point.

So far no one has been able to refute Jordan Belfort's argument. It usually leads to Ad Hominem and Straw Mans. If you know his main arguments search everywhere for a counter refutation...You can't find a good one which is all you need to know about Crypto.

Thanks for proving my point...Kid's nowadays have no ability to think critically ...

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Maxboost]

I have seen there opinions and positions and didn't think it was even worth mentioning, but again show me the position.

Jordan Belfort himself has admitted that Bitcoin isn't a scam so it makes your position as far as I'm concerned irrelevant.

And buffet himself admits he doesn't even understand it!

Would LOVE for you to add some credibility to your position but I know you won't because you have none.

Link please? Anything? Have you got one thing to show us to back your argument? Again please the chat window is below please attach it.

Would LOVE to see it.

The fact it's a speculative investment does not mean it's a scam.

LOL up your trolling game.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-4gRZmcRE


Here are Jordan's positions. Enjoy your day. Now have fun refuting every single one of them. State all of them and offer rebuttals why he is wrong.

Also, FWIW, Belfort's predictions have been right for the past 18 months.

These "old time" investors have seen it all and I think its a mistake to dismiss their experience and knowledge.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[LittleWolfie]

lock chain technology is OPEN source and FREEE which ANYONE can utilize. Block Chain Technology is great and will have an impact on technology which Belfort

I totally agree with that. Trademarkes wouldn't matter if you believe in the technology any more than cannonial or apple's do FreeBsd and debian are still around. It would be the patent. However you totally can buy a stake in blockchain technology. TCP/IP is open source, but companies that built routers still make money(more and more, as IoT takes off)


CISCO and Rackspace's future look very bright indeed.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[TinyTim]

You said top 25 are not a scam. That top 25 includes tether which is a scam. So therefore the top 25 are not scam free. Most companies believe in blockchain not crypto, you seem to be confusing the two. It's not uncommon in tech. It's similar to conflaitng an invement in domains and Domain Name servers. One gives investors a stake in Pets.com - Wikipedia the other gives them a stake in Cisco Systems - Wikipedia

Which of those two would you prefer to own?

I didn't say that about the top 25. Wrong person. 99% of projects are indeed worthless.

I know that private blockchains don't use cryptocurrency. And many companies are running their own private blockchain - fantastic!

But, companies are also just starting to use PUBLIC blockchain that uses crypto. Not small companies either, but Fortune 500 companies.

 

[LittleWolfie]

I didn't say that about the top 25. Wrong person. 99% of projects are indeed worthless.
.

My Bad. Sorry for the mixup

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[ShadyDave]

I don't believe that bitcoin is a scam because it was made to be an alternative currency, not an investment. That being said though, most other cryptos are likely to be scams.

As for what others say about it though, I wouldn't trust anyone. Do your own research, as others likely have their own agenda. If the investment looks promising then maybe try it.

 

[Sadik]

Wow, this thread went downhill very quickly.