Can I criticize (or hate) a book I haven't read entirely?

[MJ DeMarco]

Thought a thread on this was worthwhile, and might be worth a discussion since it has come up on multiple occasions lately...

Both here:
BOOK - Can't Hurt Me: by David Goggins, Review and Discussion

And here:
BOOK - The reason I don't like Think and Grow Rich...

The central question is, at what point can you criticize or hate a book?

How many chapters do you need to read in order to say, "This book sucks, I won't continue and add to my sunk cost?"

2 chapters?
2 hours?
The table of contents?
Referrals from dozens of your peers/friends?

For instance, I haven't read Tony Robbins' book, "Money Master the Game." I have, however, received dozens of emails from people who complained about it, telling me to avoid it and said it was a huge Slowlane junket fest. So, it isn't a book that I recommend and one that I take issue with because Tony (obviously) did not get rich by a Slowlane metric, stockpiling money into his 401(k).

Yes these are judgements formed from third-person narratives and testimony, which does invite potential logic errors into conclusions. Conventional wisdom says, "Don't judge a book by its cover" which isn't something I agree with wholeheartedly. If the house is dilapidated from the outside, advertising "come in here and see how compound interest can make you rich!", I'm not going to care about its imported Italian furniture and silk curtains.

At what point do I get a license to say "Avoid the book" or "I didn't like the book"?

Never, until I read it entirely?
6 chapters?
50 emails from fans?

Or, must you read the ENTIRE book (even if it continues to suck in your opinion) in order to say with confidence, "I hated it"?

And yes, I don't like speaking ill about a book where I haven't read at least a few chapters to "give it a chance".

Likewise, if TMF or UNSCRIPTED didn't grab a reader in an hour or two, I wouldn't expect him/her to continue. He/she would have a license to say, "Meh, don't read it. Couldn't finish it."

Obviously this is a subjective matter and there won't be a right answer.

But I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

 

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[Walter Hay]

This thread seems to be mostly about educational books, or at least ones claiming to be educational, and I might be unpopular for introducing the world's all-time best seller, the Bible. (According to Guinness Book of Records, 50 billion copies and counting.)

It is an educational book of indisputably ancient origin, and it contains masses of historical facts, many of which have been previously disputed or even ridiculed until modern archaeology has proven them true.

Very few people bother to read the entire Bible, yet they are happy to criticize it on the basis of two things:
1. The opinions of others, most of whom have never read it.
2. Their own opinion, without reading it, but based on dislike of some of the fairy tale type doctrines taught generally by promoters of religion.

Originally an agnostic, I have read the entire book. In fact I have read it in its entirety well over 50 times, and the New Testament over 100 times. I never accepted what I was told by either critics or learned commentators to accept as its message, but I learned for myself.

Yes, masses of people hate or criticize the book, without a clue about its real message.

Walter
P.S. I have been an avid reader since being bedridden as a child. In my Featured User thread I mentioned that in hospital I read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica. It has been rare for me to discard a book before finishing it.

 

[Andy Black]

I used to pride myself on finishing every single book I started, and I read 3-4 fiction books a week as a kid.

Then, when I was in my teens, I decided that was a dumb macho thing (for me) to do.

Now I drop it like a hot snot if it doesn’t get me in the first few pages. Authors know they should get people in the first few pages, and if they haven’t, then I figure “how you do anything is how you do everything”.

Sheeit. My attention and my time are some of my most valuable commodities (just ask my kids as they battle for my attention and time constantly).

I buy books to solve the problem in front of me. I often don’t read from the start but dive straight into where I want to. It could well be from having done IT support looking after mission critical systems. If a system falls over we don’t look for the relevant 300 page manual and start at page 1... we skim the contents and index trying to find the answer to our problem.


I used to also take pride that all my books were pristine. Now I love books being dog eared with pencil scribbles in them.

That’s what I think the author would like to happen to their book - read from cover to cover multiple times and carried around in a coat pocket for weeks on end with a pencil as the bookmark.


I’ll happily bin a book if nothing grabs me in the first few paragraphs and a subsequent skim.

If the author was in front of me talking crap or about something I’m not interested in then I’d politely extricate myself and be on my way. Why should I give that person even more of my time just because they wrote it down?


More insidious I think is that we can fill our heads up with nonsense that can take us days, months, or years to undo.

Nope, that door isn’t open just because a pen was put to paper.


I don’t think I pass judgement on books though. In the TAGR thread I just said “I skimmed it and put it down”. In the Goggins thread I just said “I bailed after a minute listening to it on Audible”. That’s me saying they didn’t grab me, and letting you know how much of a shot I gave it so you can form your own opinion of my opinion.

 

[G-Man]

Goggins is the first book I've quit halfway through I think ever. I was inspired to quit by reading Nassim Taleb. After reading something high quality, it's really hard to read fluff. Also, Taleb talks about not reading "promiscuously". Basically - he says you're better off reading a good book 3 times than 3 mediocre ones, and if you're going to read 3 books, it's better to read "deep" than "wide". IE, use your reading time and effort to become a subject matter expert in something, rather than than have little factoids about 3 different topics.

I think, if the truth be told, most of the business and self-development reading that goes on out there, including my own, is "promiscuous" - mean wide, but not deep, at least not enough to be impactful.

 

[Timmy C]

If I don't enjoy a book and it's starting to drain me or I feel I get where the whole entire book is going I just wont go ahead with the rest of it 9 times out of 10. Time is your most valuable asset. Now where I would keep listening or reading to a book is if I have listened to a book from the same author before and found value within it. For example if MJ DeMarco listed another book for sale and I got to a point where I'm thinking I can't get through this, I would keep listening purely for the fact the author has proven there value to me before so I am inclined to believe that it will turn around.

Same goes for other books I felt the same way about.

I got to chapter 7 of David goggins and I felt it was just going around in circles.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

what if someone only saw a small snippet of you on one occasion and formed a full opinion on you and used their influence sphere to spread that opinion to others with that being the only thing they saw of you?

That's their perogative.

Again, they looked at the house and didn't like it, now they don't want to see the inside.

Not saying that's right or wrong, that's just life. Everyone makes judgements on first impressions, even if those aren't accurate.

@MJ DeMarco how do you know you got the entire message if you don't attend the entire seminar?

Ill answer your question with another question...

If within the first 45 minutes of the day long seminar you heard "All engineers are introspective idiots who can't see the big picture" and "Women should never own businesses" and a variety of other things that you don't agree with, and can refute quite easily -- do you need to stay and hear the entire seminar?

 

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[biophase]

It's interesting as I scroll through my Audible account and I look at the books that I couldn't finish. Here's a list of them and why I think I didn't keep listening to them.

Mastering the Market Cycle - felt kind of boring
Einstein: His Life and Universe - felt kind of boring
12 Rules for Life (jordan peterson) - Just didn't like the style of writing
Finding my Virginity (richard branson) - felt kind of boring

I listen to books while driving so if they put me to sleep while driving, I have to change and switch to another book. Some books, I get to my destination and I sit in the car to listen longer.

I think that's the sign of a good book to me. I rarely think a book is bad, meaning that I can't stand the content. I judge them more by if the kept my attention.

So although I didn't finish any of the above books, I wouldn't ever give them a poor review. But if someone asked me about them, I'd say, I couldn't finish them because they couldn't keep my attention, but you might like them. If they ask why, I'd elaborate.

 

[MTEE1985]

At what point do I get a license to say "Avoid the book" or "I didn't like the book"?

Two very different questions in my mind. You can say you don’t like a book whenever you want. You have zero authority to tell people to avoid it if you haven’t read it entirely. Can you tell them you couldn’t finish it and your reasons why? Absolutely. Avoid it? That’s iffy in my mind for one reason:

What if the last chapter has something that will be life changing for somebody?

It’s just like what you wrote about in Unscripted , why would you take business advice from somebody who doesn’t own a business?

Why would you take book advice from somebody who hasn’t read the entire book?

 

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[ZCP]

here is what i do ..... i normally don't go into a book unless several people w/ some expertise in that area recommend it. if the first part sucks, i ask them if i should bail. if they say 'stick with it', i finish the book. then debate what i read with them. THEN form my opinion / decide what parts i can use.

as an engineer, i need to see enough data to be able to form a basis for an opinion.

 

[Deleted50669]

Fun fact, I recommended your book to my mail man, and two weeks later I had a new mail main.. HAHA

 

[Kung Fu Steve]

So although I didn't finish any of the above books, I wouldn't ever give them a poor review. But if someone asked me about them, I'd say, I couldn't finish them because they couldn't keep my attention, but you might like them. If they ask why, I'd elaborate.

This is great ^

You guys know me, I've always been the kind and loving friend who says "include everybody" and "treat everyone how you want to be treated" ...

... but I'll admit when I started seeing as many people as I do these days -- I'd talk about Tony throughout a whole seminar and people would run up to me after and say how inspired they were and how it was so great... and "have I read Dave Ramsey's book? Oh my god -- my husband and I have these envelopes -- look, here it is! We have cash in this one for this and this for this..."

And they'd go on and on... and of course I'm thinking "sooo... you going to buy a ticket to the seminar with those envelopes, lady? Or what?"



But what I saw in myself in those moments -- I didn't like.

I was judging these people for their beliefs.

I was outright upset that they couldn't see what I saw. "You guys are never going to get ahead working this job, if you goal is financial freedom you need to do XYZ ... NOT that!"

And honestly... who the hell am I to tell someone how to live their life?

Ramsey is one I run into a lot -- and from what I knew of him I didn't want to read his books but I picked up 2 of them (I forget what they were at the moment... Money makeover?) -- but my purpose of reading them was simply so I could relate to them because you can't influence someone when you're judging them.

It only took 2 or 3 times.... where I would say something not-so-positive about their favorite book and I could see the utter sadness in their eyes. They trusted me, they connected with me, they opened up to me... and here I came through and just punched them in the face.

These people who were trying so hard to change their lives and they finally found something to latch onto. Some life preserver... and here my dumb a$$ comes along and says "well that life preserver is square, not round like it should be... and don't you think you should've just worn a life jacket?"

SIDE NOTE: This is a conversation for another time... but isn't part of the reason we get so lost and lonely as entrepreneurs is because we feel like someone doesn't understand us? "You should go back to school, get a safe secure job, don't risk anything"

Maybe I'm rambling here but it's different strokes for different folks.

You want to read an entire book? Great.

You want to read a chapter? Great.

You want to read half? Great.

You want to throw it across the room after the first sentence? Great.

I think the only trouble comes in when we start judging people for liking something or not liking something...

And I'm guilty of it.

When we start telling other people something is awful and they should never try it because you didn't like it...

And I'm guilty of that, too.

There are 48,701 members of this forum looking for guidance, advice, ideas, friends, and just outright hope.

I don't think we can give any of those things unless we explore both sides of the coin.

The reason I like biophase's post here so much is because that's the mentality I admire.

I often tell people these days "I didn't get the chance to finish that one... tell me what you liked about it!"

Anyways... I guess my response is "who cares how much you read of a book... the real question is, how are you communicating about the idea, thought, book, or seminar. "

And all communication is either a loving response or a cry for help.

 

[ZCP]

@MJ DeMarco how do you know you got the entire message if you don't attend the entire seminar? what if someone only saw a small snippet of you on one occasion and formed a full opinion on you and used their influence sphere to spread that opinion to others with that being the only thing they saw of you?

maybe they saw a 30 sec youtube clip of you in the dark on your patio with your hat backwards ranting about the slowlane and decided you were a punk kid w/ bad ideas and told 1000's their take without ever looking more into your message.....

how long should they have stayed with your book? what if the good stuff in your book was at the end?

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I was inspired to quit by reading Nassim Taleb.

Reading some of his stuff now, it's really a tough read. Great points, but I feel like the points are buried in a superfluous pig-pen of prose.

I think, you write a lot better, @MJ DeMarco. You have the approach "You first -- Me second". You talk about the lessons first and when it fits, you tell something about your life related to that.

Thank you. That is something I always try to remember when writing, you first, me second. At the end of the day, people buy a book to change their life, not to hear about mine.

 

[whiz]

Give it a fair read and if it doesn't work out, then be realistic and say something like

"Disclaimer: I only read 4 chapters but the writing tone just didn't work for me"

Instead of

"That book sucks"

Nothing wrong with judging if you're honest about what material you're basing your opinion from

---

I feel like after you consume enough media (movies, books, etc) - you start to recognize patterns of what you like and what you don't like

Pattern recognition / judgment is an integral part of evolution and the reason we're here today so of course we're going to apply it to like, everything

So of course you CAN judge a book, just don't act like your opinion is God's judgment from the Heavens

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I wonder if this discussion would allow us to come to a definitive conclusion, or a method to follow when a book doesn't perform in a person's initial read of early chapters.

Read all of it? Half?

What would be a "life law" to follow?

Because I definitely agree ... hating the first half of a book (and getting nothing out of it ) does NOT mean that the latter half won't provide great value.

 

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[PizzaOnTheRoof]

My opinion is that if a book can't make you want to keep reading then you can stop and say you didn't like the book.

However, I wouldn't tell someone else not to read it simply because I didn't like it. They may find it valuable.

 

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[samuraijack]

To the title of the thread, it's a definite YES.

If you can't even finish it without forcing yourself to for some external reason, then that by definition means its a shitty book (to you).

I can't remember any book i like that sucked in the beginning and got better later on.

 

[Walter Hay]

Today I have had my one and only request for a refund resulting from the purchase of my two books on my Marketplace ad.

The buyer read the labeling book, but says he "skimmed" the importing book. He found the books "not what I expected."

Is that a criticism? I don't doubt its genuineness, but it is very general, and might not be the fault of the books. Anyone who takes up my suggestion before buying to view my book websites including the testimonials, would surely have a very complete picture of what to expect.

I just hope he doesn't tell others that Walter's books suck.

Walter
P.S. Refunded immediately and without question.

 

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[rogue synthetic]

The central question is, at what point can you criticize or hate a book?

My rules of thumb:

If I'm reading to learn something, I want it to teach me as efficiently as possible, without lying to me or misleading me.

If I'm reading for enjoyment, it better entertain me.

With most popular nonfiction, I'm after a little of both. On the education side, most books these days are pretty well-organized, so I can power-skim the TOC, the intro, and the chapter sign-posts to figure out if it's worth a damn. The Big Idea of a book shouldn't be hard to find or summarize. The presentation of the idea may help or hurt, depending on the author.

Fiction can be harder. Bad writers can make themselves clear in the first few paragraphs. Sometimes a story will fizzle later on and you won't notice without reading most of it.

I think it's entirely possible to understand the message of a book without reading it cover-to-cover. I used to be a perfectionist about books, but lately I've had to learn to say "bye bye" if they don't earn their keep. This isn't always because the book is bad. It might just be that I can digest the Big Idea without an extra 250 pages of narrative or boring statistics I don't care about.

Or it could just be a bad book.

 

[NuclearPuma]

I skip ahead.

If I don't like some part of a book I skip ahead to the end of that section and try to find the concluding summary.

Then it's on to the next chapter, section, whatever.

You don't have to read a book all or nothing and you don't have to read a book front to back.

There are a few books I don't re-read the whole book, I re-read select chapters.

 

[Roli]

Thought a thread on this was worthwhile, and might be worth a discussion since it has come up on multiple occasions lately...

Both here:
BOOK - Can't Hurt Me: by David Goggins, Review and Discussion

And here:
BOOK - The reason I don't like Think and Grow Rich...

The central question is, at what point can you criticize or hate a book?

How many chapters do you need to read in order to say, "This book sucks, I won't continue and add to my sunk cost?"

2 chapters?
2 hours?
The table of contents?
Referrals from dozens of your peers/friends?

For instance, I haven't read Tony Robbins' book, "Money Master the Game." I have, however, received dozens of emails from people who complained about it, telling me to avoid it and said it was a huge Slowlane junket fest. So, it isn't a book that I recommend and one that I take issue with because Tony (obviously) did not get rich by a Slowlane metric, stockpiling money into his 401(k).

Yes these are judgements formed from third-person narratives and testimony, which does invite potential logic errors into conclusions. Conventional wisdom says, "Don't judge a book by its cover" which isn't something I agree with wholeheartedly. If the house is dilapidated from the outside, advertising "come in here and see how compound interest can make you rich!", I'm not going to care about its imported Italian furniture and silk curtains.

At what point do I get a license to say "Avoid the book" or "I didn't like the book"?

Never, until I read it entirely?
6 chapters?
50 emails from fans?

Or, must you read the ENTIRE book (even if it continues to suck in your opinion) in order to say with confidence, "I hated it"?

And yes, I don't like speaking ill about a book where I haven't read at least a few chapters to "give it a chance".

Likewise, if TMF or UNSCRIPTED didn't grab a reader in an hour or two, I wouldn't expect him/her to continue. He/she would have a license to say, "Meh, don't read it. Couldn't finish it."

Obviously this is a subjective matter and there won't be a right answer.

But I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

My take on it is that the more books you read, the better you have a feel for if it's worth it.

So for instance, TMF got me from the first ten pages and I knew it would be good (still waiting to read Unscripted ).

Mindset, got me in the first ten lines and I knew it would be a romp.

Recently Atomic Habits had me hooked from almost the first word, finished it and have started again.

Think & Grow Rich kind of got me, but then I just couldn't relate to the old timey feel.

Principles bored me to tears, and I was desperate to finish it because of the Bill Gates quote at the back.

Anyway the point is, if you read reviews of the books I've mentioned, some will love the ones I hated and vice versa. So the answer to your question is; that it depends on the reader and the book, some people with certain books need to get an entire overview, some can tell in a few pages.

I read Think & Grow Rich all the way to the end, because even though I was not enjoying it, I felt there might be some hidden gem that I'd miss if I stopped reading (I was wrong).

Whereas Principles I could tell after two chapters that I wasn't going to finish the book. I persevered, however I kept falling asleep as I read, so in the end I gave up. Although I've been told the second half is better, however I just don't like his voice, even his videos bore me.

 

[rogue synthetic]

Whereas Principles I could tell after two chapters that I wasn't going to finish the book.

Principles was a power-skim book for me also. I picked it up from the shelf at the library on a whim, figuring I'd get see what all the fuss was about.

I guess there's good stuff in it, but all I saw was a bloated treatise. If I want to read bloated treatises, I'll read a German philosopher. (I don't want to read them either.)

It definitely fell into the "not for me" category.

I think, if the truth be told, most of the business and self-development reading that goes on out there, including my own, is "promiscuous" - mean wide, but not deep, at least not enough to be impactful.

Yeah. Popularity is a poor filter for quality, but popularity also drives a good % of choices. Promiscuity results from following the fashionable.

The other thing is, it's so easy to get lost even in a single silo. "Business" devolves into "marketing" and "finance" and all that stuff, and each of those runs another 3, 4, 5 layers deep as you get more granular.

You do need some balance between specialization and generality, otherwise you turn into one of those academics who is so hyper-specialized that they aren't aware of work done in their own fields 10 years ago.

But the point is well-taken: you're better finding a niche and going hard instead of wandering all over the place. There's a big difference between getting Real Good in one area, and trying to be a generalist who can wow everyone in Trivial Pursuit.

 

[Suzanne Bazemore]

I wonder if this discussion would allow us to come to a definitive conclusion, or a method to follow when a book doesn't perform in a person's initial read of early chapters.

Read all of it? Half?

What would be a "life law" to follow?

Because I definitely agree ... hating the first half of a book (and getting nothing out of it ) does NOT mean that the latter half won't provide great value.

For the purposes of our book discussions, I think read half. I read half of Goggins's book, but I probably won't finish it. It doesn't mean I wouldn't like to participate in the discussion, because we are using the book to prompt discussion in our group for our benefit, and I think I read enough to do that, because I did get a lot out of what I read. The part I read was very thought-provoking and beneficial, but it became somewhat repetitive to me, so I stopped reading it and probably won't re-engage, but I might. I guess my stance views using the book as a launching point for discussion about entrepreneurship, in this group, not as an official book critique.

Now I drop it like a hot snot if it doesn’t get me in the first few pages. Authors know they should get people in the first few pages, and if they haven’t, then I figure “how you do anything is how you do everything”.

I go to Amazon and use the "look inside" feature to read the first few pages. As soon as I am not interested, I stop reading. Whether it is the first sentence or 2/3 of the way through the book.

Taleb talks about not reading "promiscuously". Basically - he says you're better off reading a good book 3 times than 3 mediocre ones, and if you're going to read 3 books, it's better to read "deep" than "wide".

This concept is interesting.

I guess it depends on the type of book you are reading.

If it is fiction then stick with it. For example, George Orwell's '1984' isn't great at the start, drags on, but gets really good.

Non-fictional is where it is different and you cannot have a blanket rule for all. I wouldn't treat a motivational/business book the same way I'd treat a history book.

For me, if it is fiction I am more likely ditch it immediately. With nonfiction, I might skip chapters to ones that interest me more.

 

[Jello]

Imo one has to read at least a part of the book to create a opinion on it.

I always try to read the whole book. That's what I learned at school and somehow it got in my system and in 99% of the times I finish every book I once started.

Also when I start something I like to finish it. But that's not always the best thing to do, which is also explained in Unscripted . Somewhere along the way you have to call you losses and decide to quit since it doesn't lead you to nowhere.

Back to the book that isn't worthwhile reading to the end. Imo one has to read at least a part of it to form one's own opinion. You can always be honest and say I didn't read the whole book since after chapter three i lost my interest.

Never I would criticize a book based on a opinion from others, not even if these others has my deepest respect.

However I could say. I didn't read the book since people I think are knowledgeable, didn't recommend it.

 

[GPM]

Putting down books is something that I have a very hard time with. I feel the need to finish, no matter how bad it was.

There is literally only one book that I ever stopped reading. I was about 13 and I had purchased it from a garage sale and planned on reading it for a school book report. It was about 350 pages long and I think it was called Reaper. I remember there being no "rave reviews" or any sort of praise on the cover.

There are several books in recent memory that I have read through to completion, and regretted every hour of it. I now review the books I read in a spreadsheet and a #/10. They get piss poor scores and I make sure no one else reads them.

I too am curious as to when I should be putting the book down. I need to do that more often

 

[NMdad]

I used to feel bad if I didn't finish reading a book. Now, I don't care as much.

If I get bored, frustrated, etc., I'll typically read ~20% before ditching it. So, out of a 300-page book, maybe up to 60 pages.

Some books it's easier to decide--they're either really good (lots of meat), really bad (99% fluff), or so poorly written that I move on & get the info from a different source.

 

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[Rabby]

How many chapters do you need to read in order to say, "This book sucks, I won't continue and add to my sunk cost?"

My rule has always been the point at which I throw the book across the room.

I find this may be accompanied by me shouting expletives, sometimes very creative ones. Depending on the underlying philosophy of the book, it may happen as early as Page 1.

 

[TreyAllDay]

I think within a few chapters you should understand the general ideology, and it's perfectly fine to make a recommendation or judgement call! =) Otherwise, the author doesn't do a very good job of clearly laying out their arguments, and I wouldn't recommend the book in that case either.

"CRUSHING IT" by Gary V was in the donation bin after 3 chapters.

I have so little time for reading and so many I want to read that even if I LIKE the ideology of a book I can get sick of it fast if it's not useful.

A good example - around the time I read MFL I bought "How To Get Rich" by Felix Dennis. I didn't learn ANYTHING about "How To Get Rich" in the first half of the book, I hated it. BUT some might like it?

 

[YoungPadawan]

I used to force myself to read an entire book, even if I thought it was trash.

Now, I read the book normally, and if I think it's lame, I skim through the rest of the book and see if there is anything relevant to what I'm working on.

 

[Zcott]

I guess it depends on the type of book you are reading.

If it is fiction then stick with it. For example, George Orwell's '1984' isn't great at the start, drags on, but gets really good.

Non-fictional is where it is different and you cannot have a blanket rule for all. I wouldn't treat a motivational/business book the same way I'd treat a history book. If you understand the synopsis of the book, example being a one about putting money into a savings account for 45 years, then I'd say it's fine to hate the idea of the book. If you are reading something which is going on and on and not making any points then it's reasonable to put it aside.

 

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