Billionaires Explaining To You Why A College Degree Is Useless

[AgainstAllOdds]

I think you guys are missing the point.

The conversation in this thread is using statistics from 40 years ago to calculate whether college is worth it. Senators, Congressman, CEO's, Forbes powerful men... the average person on that list went to college 40 years ago.

The main takeaway I got from the video is that college is no longer worth it. It's a financial decision and today it's not worth investing in.

The cost of college has more than tripled in that time. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it adds a lot of debt:

And earnings haven't really increased:

Back in the old days, people could work in the summers and pay off their college tuitions:

Now, you're pretty much F*cked.

The reason I shared the video is because I thought it provided a good thought pattern on why college is not worth it anymore as an investment TODAY. Yeah, it might have been worth it 40 years ago, but today the numbers have changed completely.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I wrote about this in Unscripted ...



The old college argument about "Graduates make more over their lifetimes than their non-degreed counterparts" is statistical rubbish.

Why?

Because parents aren't gonna keep their book-smart teens away from college.

Likewise, if you have the aptitude and intelligence to be accepted into Harvard, Stanford, or Oxford, more than likely you can do very well without college. The key item of statistical relevance here is not that they DROPPED OUT, it's that they already had a propensity for high achievement.

The problem is when people use "I don't need a degree" and point to these billionaires when their life up to this point has been nothing but laziness and sloth.

The other factor in this is COST. To put it simply, college (outside of STEM stuff) just isn't worth the cost any longer.

 

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[jon.a]

However, there's other factors to consider, the biggest being prestige. Society adores people that went to an "Ivy League". Society doesn't really adore someone that "cold calls".

Society can kiss my a$$.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

 

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[eliquid]

While I am personally against college, I'm not against those that go for X reason.

Ironically, my largest consulting clients are colleges and universities for my paid advertising services. I handle PPC and media buys day in and day out for up to 50+ universities at any given time. I get to see admissions, enrollment, onboarding, etc on a whole different level than most. I find tons of different reasons why people want to go to college. Some good, a lot bad.

My kids have been asking me about their college futures and I told them I would like them to do something different out of high school than go to college and that I would not pay for college unless they first:

1. Learn a trade - So that if something happens in their future, they have something to fall back on. In "showing" them as their father, I'm looking to learn coppersmithing ( hey @Andy Black , I might need your blacksmithing ads help.. lol, j/k ) or gunsmithing as a hobby so they see me doing it as well.
   
   
2. Run a small or side business of their own - So they learn about business, independence, exchanging money for value instead of time, etc. Maybe the business they run is related to their trade above. I'd like for them to come into my digital business, but if they want to follow what they love ( one really loves photography and calligraphy ), I'm cool with that too of course.
   
   
3. Work a really shitty job, hopefully with a shitty boss - As a parent, I don't wish anything shitty on my kids, but I want them to know what it's like to work in the heavy cold/wet snow all day, be tired and exhausted, get paid almost nothing for their efforts, and have to deal with a shitty boss breathing down their neck over anything they do. Or work within an office and deal with office politics, people stealing your lunch, layoffs, and other office crap.
   
   
4. I haven't made this a requirement yet, but I'm thinking of having them travel the world for 6-12 months working in different cities and countries on their own. They can possibly use their trade to make their living while traveling, or run into the "shitty" jobs part while traveling. I want them to experience something many others don't and gain confidence of traveling on their own to other areas unknown to them. Right now they travel with me and mom, so the burden of everything falls on me and they just "enjoy" the trip. I'd like to turn that around on them once they get old enough.

If they can do all that, and they still want to go to college.. I'll pay for them to get a degree.

The reason is, if after all that they still want the degree.. it's going to be because they truly want to have it for X reason. Not because some sheeple told them they needed to have it.

What's cool is we currently homeschool our kids. I can basically teach them a lot of this upfront since I get to decide the curriculum. Meaning, I get to decide if they learn about "Entrepreneurship" this year and "Nomadic Traveling" next year. Maybe a class on business financials or options trading. Granted, I only get 1 class a year I get to decide for them since they still have to follow state regulations too.. but its a good jump start.

.

 

[biophase]

It's also like Kobe and Lebron and Garnett going straight from high school to the NBA. If they went to college, they would have found out in that 1 year that college was holding them back. I am willing to bet that Gates and Zuckerberg were feeling the same way sitting in classes wondering why they were competing in the minor leagues.

But with that said, if college was say 1/4 the price, I don't think we would be having this conversation. It all comes down to ROI and with Google and Youtube around, the ROI of college is really bad.

Lastly, college is so general, and what we need are specific honed skills. To get my engineering degree, I needed to take liberal arts classes. I wanted to take more engineering classes, but that's not how it goes. So I took, Music, Rhetoric, Weight Training, Asian Mythology, Basketball, Classic Civilization. Ironically, I almost failed Classic civilization which would have caused me to not graduate. (yes, I found my transcript and diploma for this post)

Looking back at this now, I wonder if anyone would sign up for Classic Civ if it weren't required. Is this just a way for colleges to squeeze more classes out of you?

Imagine Kobe and Lebron having to sit through a college class about Chemistry when they really should be shooting 200 jumpers. That time sitting in chemistry class is literally costing them millions.

BTW, when I was in college, tuition was $6k a year and starting salary was $35k.

 

[G-Man]

This somehow turned from one of many college bashing threads into a genuinely interesting debate. Thanks to @JScott and @AgainstAllOdds

As an irrelevant aside, @amp0193 is spot on

To play devil's advocate a bit: If your employee is saddled with college debt, they probably are going to need to keep the job you give them to pay their student loan bills. Maybe you get more long-term employees this way. Golden handcuffs.

I still remember the agitated look on my former a**hole boss's face when he realized I didn't have a penny in debt. I think he was worried I'd just up and leave one day... which I did, with no notice, about 6 mos later. After the debt conversation he was always trying to convince me to get a nicer car, or that since I was about to have a kid I needed to go buy a house.

My takeaway really,... is that student loans are a bad thing. College can be positive, especially if you're tuned to spot the BS you're being fed. I wasn't, and that's a story for another day.

 

[Argue]

Saw this video on world star. A lot of people in the comment section said that this video is useless. They then said college is useful because it gets you a well paying job.

#ScriptedLife

 

[throttleforward]

I'm waiting for the first billionaire business owner to declare that they are no longer considering formal education in their hiring processes, and instead are moving toward an algorithm-based evaluation method to find new hires. Frankly I'm shocked, given all the predictive computing power and tech startups in the hiring space, that more companies haven't done this.

Anyone who has witnessed the hiring process from inside a large organization knows that formal degree requirements are thoughtlessly and reflexively mandated, simply to weed people out and make the human review of applications easier. Thus driving demand for ever-higher degrees (backed by federally-insured, bankruptcy-protected loans).

 

[ApparentHorizon]

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Society adores people that went to an "Ivy League".

Yuck.

I hope I don't find myself in a room with stiffs like that.

 

[ZCP]

Attending university at the now inflated rates may not be worth the job you can get from it. But education is worth it. Knowledge is power. You may just have to 'shop around' to find a cheaper way to get that knowledge.

We are struggling with this one right now. Our oldest is 15. Owns two profitable businesses. Should he go to college?

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Attending university at the now inflated rates may not be worth the job you can get from it. But education is worth it. Knowledge is power. You may just have to 'shop around' to find a cheaper way to get that knowledge.

The most valuable thing that you can learn is how to teach yourself. If you figure that out, then you're set for life.

We are struggling with this one right now. Our oldest is 15. Owns two profitable businesses. Should he go to college?

And as for your son, it looks like you guys have a tough decision on your hands. Main difference for you guys is that college is seen as less of an "investment", maybe even an opportunity cost. So you have to weigh how much the other factors matter (social, connections, experience, etc).

Have you seen any stats on regular college/uni vs ivy leagues?

Best Universities and Colleges | Payscale

Looking at mid-career salary is pretty good. But that doesn't give the full picture. Ivy Leagues are more expensive, but also have more financial aid. More factors to calculate in.

Personally though I think that going to a school like Harvard is overrated in terms of how much money you'll be making. Mid-career you're making $140,700 a year.

That's a good income. But would you really make less if you a) skipped college; b) apprenticed for someone like @458 making cold calls?

I strongly believe 4 years of sales is more beneficial than 4 years of Ivy League.

However, there's other factors to consider, the biggest being prestige. Society adores people that went to an "Ivy League". Society doesn't really adore someone that "cold calls".

 

[amp0193]

I'm waiting for the first billionaire business owner to declare that they are no longer considering formal education in their hiring processes, and instead are moving toward an algorithm-based evaluation method to find new hires. Frankly I'm shocked, given all the predictive computing power and tech startups in the hiring space, that more companies haven't done this.

Anyone who has witnessed the hiring process from inside a large organization knows that formal degree requirements are thoughtlessly and reflexively mandated, simply to weed people out and make the human review of applications easier. Thus driving demand for ever-higher degrees (backed by federally-insured, bankruptcy-protected loans).

I definitely agree that there could be much better ways of evaluating candidates.

To play devil's advocate a bit: If your employee is saddled with college debt, they probably are going to need to keep the job you give them to pay their student loan bills. Maybe you get more long-term employees this way. Golden handcuffs.

 

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[lewj24]

Consider that nearly all of the billionaires in that video either graduated from college or were at least accepted to well-known/prestigious universities (whether they finished or not)...that tells me that while they may not have needed to graduate college to become successful, they all were super smart and worked hard in school prior to college...

In fact, I love when people use Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg as examples of why a college degree isn't necessary -- I like to point out that if those two guys are the litmus test for what is and is not necessary to become a billionaire, then clearly the ability to GET INTO Harvard is important for a future billionaire... If you can't get accepted to Harvard, don't compare yourself to those guys...

BTW, I don't believe that college is a requirement for financial success, but I will point out the ridiculousness of someone who practically fails out of high school, sleeps until noon every day, goes out partying every night and then says, "If Bill Gates could become a billionaire without a college degree, so can I..."

(It's my guess that) They may have attended/graduated college but that might be why they say it's not that valuable. When they where 18 and following the scripted lifestyle they thought college was good. My guess is after college they realized how much more they needed to learn in order to be successful and realized college wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Today Mark Cuban reads at least 3 hours a day to keep up with his businesses. I doubt he studied that much in college. (Again I have no idea tho)

Oh and also when they attended college 30-50 years ago it was reasonably priced compared to today which might be another reason why they bad talk it.

 

[Thoelt53]

Doesn't add up. Isn't Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs listed on Forbes Powerful Men list? They obviously are successful dropouts..

The graphic only mentions that they "attended college." Could be that they're classifying dropouts as well, seeing how they technically "attended college."

Like @JScott said, even if they dropped out of Harvard, or Standford, or Yale, they still had to have the ability and the fortitude to get accepted there in the first place.

With that being said, everyone's definition of "success" is different. To say that successful dropouts are a myth is misleading at best.

 

[mikey3times]

Society adores people that went to an "Ivy League".

Funny. When I get a resume from a recent Harvard grad I throw it in the trash because my experience is they actually don’t know anything useful, but they think their degree gives them the credentials to run the company. Reading 1000 case studies is not the same as figuring out the solution to a real problem involving real people.

Give me an ambitious state-school grad over Ivy League any day.

Ugh. Sorry for the rant.

 

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[eliquid]

Getting into Harvard has a lot more to do than grades or the "right stuff" to be a millionaire/success.

Ivy League Admissions Are a Sham: Confessions of a Harvard Gatekeeper

If you don't have the money, legacy parents, the right location, race, came from a good school system that offers the right extracurriculars, etc.. you simply will have a hard time getting in.

Your upbringing will have a ton of influence if you are even able to be privileged enough to get past an admissions review at Harvard. You don't get to control your upbringing.

Most of those getting into Harvard succeed later not because of their attitude/smarts, but because their families have the resources others do not so they can succeed. For those that went that are not in the top 3% of earners ( lower income that still got into Harvard ), the networking they did at Harvard with those who's parents were in the top 3% helps.

Example:
My dorm mates daddy might be CEO of Chase bank. Being his friend when he graduates and becomes VP of Chase can help me a lot even if I dropout.

Lets not get into athletic recruits....

There are a lot more factors in play for why those that got accepted into Harvard became successful later that have nothing to do at all with getting into Harvard.

 

[SirPsychoSexy]

Ok, we have the testimonials from two IT genius who became insanely rich after dropping an Elite college, can we now have the testimonials of all the guys who dropped college and failed miserably in their ventures? My point is, I don't trust guys with survivor bias.

 

[ApparentHorizon]

Ok, we have the testimonials from two IT genius who became insanely rich after dropping an Elite college, can we now have the testimonials of all the guys who dropped college and failed miserably in their ventures? My point is, I don't trust guys with survivor bias.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Zucks started his biz in college, and leveraged connections within to gain funding. Gates resold DOS while in college.

Both validated their markets first

It's not like they dropped out, and were like..."ok now time to start a biz..."

 

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[Carol Jones]

I think you guys are missing the point.

The conversation in this thread is using statistics from 40 years ago to calculate whether college is worth it. Senators, Congressman, CEO's, Forbes powerful men... the average person on that list went to college 40 years ago.

The main takeaway I got from the video is that college is no longer worth it. It's a financial decision and today it's not worth investing in.

The cost of college has more than tripled in that time. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it adds a lot of debt:

And earnings haven't really increased:

Back in the old days, people could work in the summers and pay off their college tuitions:

Now, you're pretty much F*cked.

The reason I shared the video is because I thought it provided a good thought pattern on why college is not worth it anymore as an investment TODAY. Yeah, it might have been worth it 40 years ago, but today the numbers have changed completely.

Good morning @AgainstAllOdds from rural Australia,

I agree with you.

Skills are now more important than ever. And universities don't teach skills. Unless you're going to be a doctor. Or a scientist. Or a lawyer.

I have three university degrees. None of which prepared me for what I'm doing today.

I've spent the last 10 years doing online courses to improve my skills in internet marketing. Understanding Google Analytics. Email marketing. Cold Calling. My list of courses completed is very long. And I supplement the gaps with books. Books. Books.

The business environment changes at such a rapid rate, universities with their stodgy bureaucracy have no chance of keeping up.

I wouldn't advise anyone who wants to become an entrepreneur to go to university. Being saddled with such huge debt when you graduate isn't conducive to exploring opportunities. Nor is there much opportunity to learn from teachers who are hands on. Rather than theoretical.

I would advise anyone who wants to become an entrepreneur to learn skills on the hop. Online courses. Short term courses at vocational schools rather than universities. And apply what you learn to what you want to achieve. In the moment. Don't wait until you've completed 4 years of study. Apply what you learn. As you learn it. It's not only cheaper. But relevant. And you only have to prove your worth to yourself. Not to some manager who has no idea as to what to do with you.

The business cycle is now so short, anyone in business has to commit to perennial learning. ~Carol❤

 

[lewj24]

Absolutely. And I'd argue that anyone who is smart enough and who works hard enough to get accepted to Harvard and start a profitable business while at Harvard probably has the traits to drop out of Harvard and make a ton of money.

I'd also argue that 99% of the people who don't go to college don't fit that profile.

And again, I'm absolutely NOT saying that college is necessary to become rich/successful (it most certainly isn't)... I'm just saying that using people like Zuckerberg and Gates as an example of why college isn't necessary is simply illogical. I'm sure there are many hundreds/thousands of ten-millionaires who didn't go to college that can illustrate that point better than the couple of high-profile billionaires.

I agree with everything you're saying. I just wanted to point out that the graphic was false.

Clearly Cuban was all about becoming smarter whether through college or not. He said he would sneak into the MBA classes when he was an undergrad so he could get an MBA education for free until they caught him.

Basically, successful people are all about learning and so they want to go to college to learn but even if they don't they will still find a way to learn.

 

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[Envision]

Doesn't add up. Isn't Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs listed on Forbes Powerful Men list? They obviously are successful dropouts..

Of Harvard...

 

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[Yoda]

First, let me just say I'm in agreement with college not being "worth it" anymore, financially speaking. Period.

Now, to really dig into conversational points, there are several *exceptions* which hold true, and would likely continue to do so:

1. The major matters. You can't tell me a computer science degree isn't more valuable (financially speaking) than a fine arts degree, on the whole. Accounting, law, finance, computer science, and medical will almost always yield more than fine arts, psychology, sociology, biology (strict), or other "general studies" type of major, on the whole.
2. The time period matters. As it's been stated several times in this thread, the super dated studies are super useless when speaking about today's numbers. This doesn't mean they are useless entirely, as they matter for the time period they represent. However, a better use of judgement would be looking at top earner's under the age of 35-40 and their degrees. This would much more closely represents our current graduating classes.
3. Cost is not net cost. Studies often spew tuition costs straight from a website, when, many times, students (especially the hardest working, most intelligent) get assistance through grants, scholarships, etc. to help pay. I went to a school which, on paper, would have been over 100k. I walked with less than 20k in loans. No, I did not pay 80k out my pocket (nor did my parents). The only types of financial assistance I qualified for would have been available to the majority.
4. College is not classes. I honestly don't believe I learned much in college, educationally (which is very scary, given what my degree would allow me to do, had I chosen to actually use it). However, for real life, I learned a shit ton.

Another point, which is likely founded though I will say only loosely, is the fact many students get a degree, then never use it. I am one of them.

I don't plan to set aside any money for my kids for college. Not because I don't value education (I very much do) or the experience of college (even moreso), but because:

• it's not my decision, and I don't want my kids to feel as though they are "expected" to attend
• it's a poor use of financial tools, especially for an entrepreneur who can deploy capital for real time growth
• if my child decides to go, I want them to look at the costs, face-to-face, and understand the risks/rewards without a parachute

 

[ZCP]

Doesn't add up. Isn't Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs listed on Forbes Powerful Men list? They obviously are successful dropouts..

think it says attended, not graduated....

 

[Ninjakid]

Consider that nearly all of the billionaires in that video either graduated from college or were at least accepted to well-known/prestigious universities (whether they finished or not)...that tells me that while they may not have needed to graduate college to become successful, they all were super smart and worked hard in school prior to college...

In fact, I love when people use Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg as examples of why a college degree isn't necessary -- I like to point out that if those two guys are the litmus test for what is and is not necessary to become a billionaire, then clearly the ability to GET INTO Harvard is important for a future billionaire... If you can't get accepted to Harvard, don't compare yourself to those guys...

BTW, I don't believe that college is a requirement for financial success, but I will point out the ridiculousness of someone who practically fails out of high school, sleeps until noon every day, goes out partying every night and then says, "If Bill Gates could become a billionaire without a college degree, so can I..."

This is an extremely good point, and one people often fail to realize.

And again, I'm absolutely NOT saying that college is necessary to become rich/successful (it most certainly isn't)... I'm just saying that using people like Zuckerberg and Gates as an example of why college isn't necessary is simply illogical. I'm sure there are many hundreds/thousands of ten-millionaires who didn't go to college that can illustrate that point better than the couple of high-profile billionaires.

One thing to point out is that Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates were raised in educated backgrounds, and while not rich, their respective families were already well off. People raised in that setting usually learn that education is important, whereas people from working classes often learn that just having a job is important.

So their going to university is likely more a result of the culture they were brought up in, and less to do with a conscious plan of using it to obtain billionaire status.

 

[mikey3times]

I think others have said something similar, but there is a scripted way of attending college and an unscripted way. One is much more valuable, but takes a lot more effort. College can be worth every penny.

As with Buying A House Is Stupid, there is no right answer except what you decide is right for you.

I do think it is fascinating that Zuck found his Need while in college. (Rhetorical question...) Would Facebook be a thing if he hadn’t gone to college? Would he have known what college kids needed or wanted if he had never gone?

 

[PedroG]

(It's my guess that) They may have attended/graduated college but that might be why they say it's not that valuable. When they where 18 and following the scripted lifestyle they thought college was good. My guess is after college they realized how much more they needed to learn in order to be successful and realized college wasn't all it's cracked up to be. Today Mark Cuban reads at least 3 hours a day to keep up with his businesses. I doubt he studied that much in college. (Again I have no idea tho)

Oh and also when they attended college 30-50 years ago it was reasonably priced compared to today which might be another reason why they bad talk it.

Agree. I'm currently in the process of finishing my master's which is computer science with an "entrepreneurship" option. I'm on the last "Entrepreneurship" course right now, and what you learn is completely pointless, and nothing that helps you actually apply anything to start a real business.

I've learned 100 times more by reading books with stuff I can actually apply to a real life scenario.

There's something wrong with the process. You can't learn business just by reading and taking tests. A degree in business should involve the creation of a real company.

 

[SirPsychoSexy]

Correct me if I'm wrong: Zucks started his biz in college, and leveraged connections within to gain funding. Gates resold DOS while in college.

Both validated their markets first

It's not like they dropped out, and were like..."ok now time to start a biz..."

They leveraged opportunities offered in college. College isn't just about learning, it's also a networking platform and a launching pad. I'm not advocating going to college, but I don't want to shit on higher education for the wrong reasons. Also, I'm from EU. In France, you can go to good public universities for less than a thousand per year.

 

[AfterWind]

If you have a specific goal in life and you know you can achieve it, then just start working for it. University might not be necessary.