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Becoming a developer in 2022: Progress thread

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Jeannen

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This is the next part of my journey (first here), and since it will be very different from the previous one, I decided to make a new thread.

To give some context: I started entrepreneurship in 2017, became a freelancer, and got decent success.
I have ok income, not amazing but not bad either, and I can live quite comfortably since I moved to Indonesia to reduce my living costs.

During those years, I focused a lot on eCommerce and Marketing (which became my "job"), but I feel it's time to move to something else considering:
- The evolution of the market: ad costs rising like crazy, more emphasis on content and less technical media buying
- The upcoming economic crisis: marketing expenses are the first to be cleared in every crisis. Also, people focus more on essential & cheap purchases during those times.


So, I decided to learn to code.

I'm not really starting from scratch, as I have always been interested in this, so I know a few basics, but that's the first time I'm taking a "formal" class.
I'm pretty good with HTLM/CSS (not really coding tho) and have some decent basis in GDSCRIPT (very similar to Python but only used to make videogames). Other than that, I never really followed any structured course.

I bought a $20 course to learn Python on Udemy. So far it's very easy since I have the basics, but hopefully, it will start getting complicated soon (meaning I learn new things).
I choose Python because it's a popular language so there is lots of documentation about it, and it seems to be a good language for anything related to AI. No idea if I'll reach this stage but still good to learn something with potential.

My goal is to finish my course by the end of this month and start doing my own projects. Not sure what exactly, but whenever I see something that annoys me I write it down to come back to it later, so I'll pick from that. I'll probably take other courses later to consolidate my knowledge.
There is 36 section in the course, already 11 are done so far.

I made this post for public accountability and "force" me to do it regularly. It might also help people who want to get into coding to find some ideas to start. It's probably gonna be boring tho.

Worst case, I'd have learned a new skill that will be valuable. Combined with my already existing business and marketing skills (advertising, idea testing & prototyping, team management, customer study, manufacturing, etc...), I'm pretty sure that would give me a safety net for the upcoming crisis.
Of course, I'll still keep my existing marketing clients for now.
 
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bluffcatcher

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Why don't you learn JS if you already know CSS & HTML? Add PHP on top of it and congrats, you're a full-stack developer.
Also if you're gonna work as a developer, you'll need to move out of Indonesia because the salaries probably would be pretty low. You can try to work remote but most of the remote positions are for seniors, I haven't seen a lot of remote junior positions really. And you'd need a good portfolio for freelancing. I see you're French. Can you start a YouTube channel on coding and maybe sell courses? There's a channel called Coding Phase on YouTube. Doesn't have a lot of subs but I remember the guy saying he makes over $40k/m from his courses. He had his own website like Netflix and had bunch of courses in it. You don't have to be a senior master coder, just learn and teach what you learned as you go. 1000 students paying $10 a month is $10.000. And also the ad revenue wouldn't be so bad since France is not broke. I'm just trying to give you some ideas to make things a little more fastlane.
 

extraordwealth

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This is the next part of my journey (first here), and since it will be very different from the previous one, I decided to make a new thread.

To give some context: I started entrepreneurship in 2017, became a freelancer, and got decent success.
I have ok income, not amazing but not bad either, and I can live quite comfortably since I moved to Indonesia to reduce my living costs.

During those years, I focused a lot on eCommerce and Marketing (which became my "job"), but I feel it's time to move to something else considering:
- The evolution of the market: ad costs rising like crazy, more emphasis on content and less technical media buying
- The upcoming economic crisis: marketing expenses are the first to be cleared in every crisis. Also, people focus more on essential & cheap purchases during those times.


So, I decided to learn to code.

I'm not really starting from scratch, as I have always been interested in this, so I know a few basics, but that's the first time I'm taking a "formal" class.
I'm pretty good with HTLM/CSS (not really coding tho) and have some decent basis in GDSCRIPT (very similar to Python but only used to make videogames). Other than that, I never really followed any structured course.

I bought a $20 course to learn Python on Udemy. So far it's very easy since I have the basics, but hopefully, it will start getting complicated soon (meaning I learn new things).
I choose Python because it's a popular language so there is lots of documentation about it, and it seems to be a good language for anything related to AI. No idea if I'll reach this stage but still good to learn something with potential.

My goal is to finish my course by the end of this month and start doing my own projects. Not sure what exactly, but whenever I see something that annoys me I write it down to come back to it later, so I'll pick from that. I'll probably take other courses later to consolidate my knowledge.
There is 36 section in the course, already 11 are done so far.

I made this post for public accountability and "force" me to do it regularly. It might also help people who want to get into coding to find some ideas to start. It's probably gonna be boring tho.

Worst case, I'd have learned a new skill that will be valuable. Combined with my already existing business and marketing skills (advertising, idea testing & prototyping, team management, customer study, manufacturing, etc...), I'm pretty sure that would give me a safety net for the upcoming crisis.
Of course, I'll still keep my existing marketing clients for now.
I also want to learn coding also. Can you guide me?
 
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Jeannen

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Why don't you learn JS if you already know CSS & HTML? Add PHP on top of it and congrats, you're a full-stack developer.
Also if you're gonna work as a developer, you'll need to move out of Indonesia because the salaries probably would be pretty low. You can try to work remote but most of the remote positions are for seniors, I haven't seen a lot of remote junior positions really. And you'd need a good portfolio for freelancing. I see you're French. Can you start a YouTube channel on coding and maybe sell courses? There's a channel called Coding Phase on YouTube. Doesn't have a lot of subs but I remember the guy saying he makes over $40k/m from his courses. He had his own website like Netflix and had bunch of courses in it. You don't have to be a senior master coder, just learn and teach what you learned as you go. 1000 students paying $10 a month is $10.000. And also the ad revenue wouldn't be so bad since France is not broke. I'm just trying to give you some ideas to make things a little more fastlane.
I had to pick one so I choose Python haha, mainly because I already had some bases, and even if it’s out of reach for now, it’s one of the best language for AI apparently

I don’t plan to work as an employee unless I’m really in trouble, so I’ll just work on personal projects until I find opportunities, thus why I’m staying in Indonesia

I'd need a shitload of time to be able to learn other people to code, but not excluding the possibility in the future, who knows. I'd rather build a sellable asset tho
 
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Jeannen

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A bit more than halfway through my course. Things started to get more complex, so it means I'm learning.

Learning to code and making the course's exercises takes more energy than I thought, that's def not the kind of thing I could do while being hungover or sleep-deprived (at least for now).

My pattern to learn is:
  • Watch the course
  • If I find a new functionality or something I want to understand better, pause the video and make tests on my own
  • Make the exercises after each video
  • Take a 5-10 mins break after each complicated exercise (doing dumb stuff that doesn't require brainpower)
 
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Jeannen

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Made my first "real" program that interacts with online stuff. It's a dad joke generator that connects to an API to get the jokes and return a random one inside the program. Very basic but that allowed me to test all the concepts I learned so far
 

Jeannen

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Seems like I've finished learning the base concepts of Python in my course, and I'm now starting the interesting parts.
The next module will be about web scrapping; Something that can provide a shitton of value if done right.

So far, I understood most of the concepts. There were a few things that didn't really make sense IMO but still understood them, so, I'm pretty happy about that. I'll probably hit a roadblock at some point, but it's expected


To give some context, I've been doing this almost all day every day since I started.
I wake up at 6:00 to go to the gym, then go back home and code until I go to sleep. Of course, I have to make "breaks" to eat, rest my mind and do client stuff, but overall, I'm mainly doing code.
 

Jeannen

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Almost done with the course. Only 2 sections left. Web scrapping is absolutely amazing, I can now get pretty much any data I want from any website.

For example, I can program a bot that will navigate through every page on a website and find every single email address. Could make an amazing tool for lead generation, even tho it already exists.

I'm going to take an additional course later on Python Data Scrapping, but for now, I have the basics.
 
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izajjj

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Going to keep an eye on this thread as I'm on the same journey, you're making really fast progress!! Are you looking to go down the machine learning/AI route then?

I've been doing data science with Python/Power BI for the past 5 months and just starting to apply for jobs today, hopefully can then develop the skills further to be able to build an asset of somekind.

Keep on pushing man you got this.
 

Jeannen

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Going to keep an eye on this thread as I'm on the same journey, you're making really fast progress!! Are you looking to go down the machine learning/AI route then?
I'm very interested in the topic, so I'll definitely take a look at it. But the main focus, for now, is web apps
I've been doing data science with Python/Power BI for the past 5 months and just starting to apply for jobs today, hopefully can then develop the skills further to be able to build an asset of somekind.

Keep on pushing man you got this.
Oh wow, that's great!! You're able to apply for jobs after 5 months? That's pretty cool. Working in a company can def gives you a broader perspective and improve your skills
 

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Finished the course Yesterday. I still have some exercises I haven't done, but I wanted to jump directly into more real-use stuffs, so I'm currently learning to make web apps using Flask, a tool (framework) to use Python as back-end (server).
 
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alexkuzmov

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This is the next part of my journey (first here), and since it will be very different from the previous one, I decided to make a new thread.

To give some context: I started entrepreneurship in 2017, became a freelancer, and got decent success.
I have ok income, not amazing but not bad either, and I can live quite comfortably since I moved to Indonesia to reduce my living costs.

During those years, I focused a lot on eCommerce and Marketing (which became my "job"), but I feel it's time to move to something else considering:
- The evolution of the market: ad costs rising like crazy, more emphasis on content and less technical media buying
- The upcoming economic crisis: marketing expenses are the first to be cleared in every crisis. Also, people focus more on essential & cheap purchases during those times.


So, I decided to learn to code.

I'm not really starting from scratch, as I have always been interested in this, so I know a few basics, but that's the first time I'm taking a "formal" class.
I'm pretty good with HTLM/CSS (not really coding tho) and have some decent basis in GDSCRIPT (very similar to Python but only used to make videogames). Other than that, I never really followed any structured course.

I bought a $20 course to learn Python on Udemy. So far it's very easy since I have the basics, but hopefully, it will start getting complicated soon (meaning I learn new things).
I choose Python because it's a popular language so there is lots of documentation about it, and it seems to be a good language for anything related to AI. No idea if I'll reach this stage but still good to learn something with potential.

My goal is to finish my course by the end of this month and start doing my own projects. Not sure what exactly, but whenever I see something that annoys me I write it down to come back to it later, so I'll pick from that. I'll probably take other courses later to consolidate my knowledge.
There is 36 section in the course, already 11 are done so far.

I made this post for public accountability and "force" me to do it regularly. It might also help people who want to get into coding to find some ideas to start. It's probably gonna be boring tho.

Worst case, I'd have learned a new skill that will be valuable. Combined with my already existing business and marketing skills (advertising, idea testing & prototyping, team management, customer study, manufacturing, etc...), I'm pretty sure that would give me a safety net for the upcoming crisis.
Of course, I'll still keep my existing marketing clients for now.
Thats great man, keep going!

Check this advice I gave to another forum member and click around the thread: EXECUTION - F*ck it, i'm learning to code

It takea years to learn to code, just dont give up and it'll happen.
 
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bluffcatcher

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Thats great man, keep going!

Check this advice I gave to another forum member and clock around the thread: EXECUTION - F*ck it, i'm learning to code

It takea years to learn to code, just dont give up and it'll happen.
I've seen people learn front-end and land a mid-level job in 4-6 months, without previous experience in other languages.
It takes years if you have a learning disability.
 

alexkuzmov

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I've seen people learn front-end and land a mid-level job in 4-6 months, without previous experience in other languages.
It takes years if you have a learning disability.
Those would be 'apprentice' developers.

"Landing a mid-level job", whatever that means, says nothing about the skills of a person.

Over the years I've seen many people come and go, learning "fast", getting a job, producing mass quantities of shit code and then either quiting or deciding that wordpress is the greatest thing ever, so they dont need to learn any more.

The Duning-Kruger effect is particularly strong when it comes to software development.
 

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Why don't you learn JS if you already know CSS & HTML? Add PHP on top of it and congrats, you're a full-stack developer.

I think the suggestion with JS is fine and makes sense, but why do you recommend PHP to a beginner who does not exactly know what they want from their coding learning journey? You can do all the backend stuff just fine with node.js once you need it, so no real need for another backend language. I see the point in recommending PHP for people who really want to get into web development but there are also more fun ways to learn the backend of web dev in 2022 :hilarious:

OP decided for Python which is fine too. I recommend it to all people interested in data, AI, and just playing around :bullseye:
 
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Jeannen

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Thats great man, keep going!

Check this advice I gave to another forum member and click around the thread: EXECUTION - F*ck it, i'm learning to code

It takea years to learn to code, just dont give up and it'll happen.
Amazing, thanks a lot, will read that!
I know it's going to take years, I don't plan to start making income with anything related to dev before at least one year. I had some pseudo-experience in the past (making very basic games with GMS2, Unity and Godot) and a bit of C. It wasn't much but I still remembered some of the basic concepts you mentioned in the post linked (variable types, loops etc...)
There is no way back now, I don't plan to do projects other than developing from now on, except of course my current clients and stuff
 

Jeannen

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I've seen people learn front-end and land a mid-level job in 4-6 months, without previous experience in other languages.
It takes years if you have a learning disability.
Yeah, I think it's enough to get the basics and land a job or start a project, to become really good it will probably take me years
 

Jeannen

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I think the suggestion with JS is fine and makes sense, but why do you recommend PHP to a beginner who does not exactly know what they want from their coding learning journey? You can do all the backend stuff just fine with node.js once you need it, so no real need for another backend language. I see the point in recommending PHP for people who really want to get into web development but there are also more fun ways to learn the backend of web dev in 2022 :hilarious:

OP decided for Python which is fine too. I recommend it to all people interested in data, AI, and just playing around :bullseye:
I made a few research, while JS is nice, I wanted to get into Python for its simplicity and flexibility (seems to be amazing for scrapping and AI from what I read).
I'll learn Javascript later for sure, both for front-end and back-end with node.js (most people recommended me node for back-end)

So, yeah for now I'm just playing around, getting a broad perspective on coding, and then I'll specialize based on what I need!
 
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Jeannen

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Alright, now that I've learned the basics to make a local server, I can code my own apps.
My first project is going to be an app that improves text reading, especially for people with dyslexia. It already exists, and there are APIs available, but I don't like the way it's done so I'll create my own.

Might sound complicated explained like that but it's not, just a few loops and list comprehension and I should have a similar result. Then, I'll just have to plug it into a web app.

That's my goal for June 2022, having this first app ready and available for public use (so, both front and back-end)
 
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bluffcatcher

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Those would be 'apprentice' developers.

"Landing a mid-level job", whatever that means, says nothing about the skills of a person.

Over the years I've seen many people come and go, learning "fast", getting a job, producing mass quantities of shit code and then either quiting or deciding that wordpress is the greatest thing ever, so they dont need to learn any more.

The Duning-Kruger effect is particularly strong when it comes to software development.
Nobody starts as an expert. Saying "it takes years to learn to code" is just wrong. Mastering it takes years and you don't have to be a master to get a job, or build projects.
And if you can manage to get some investors to invest in your project, you can hire better developers.

And not being a master doesn't mean you produce mass quantities of shit code. You still can write good code without being a senior. Even if you do produce shit code, there are seniors who check the code juniors write and fix it if there is anything wrong. This is how juniors learn.

Also I don't think there is anything wrong with using tools that makes the developers' life easier. I'm not some WP fan, and I don't say it's the greatest thing in the world, but show a little more respect to a CMS that powers %34 of all the websites, lol.

There are many people who became millionaires through Wordpress, either by developing and selling themes or starting an agency.


This forum is about making money through providing value at scale, and you don't have to be the best code monkey in the world in order to achieve that.
 
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TheKingOfMadrid

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Those would be 'apprentice' developers.

"Landing a mid-level job", whatever that means, says nothing about the skills of a person.

Over the years I've seen many people come and go, learning "fast", getting a job, producing mass quantities of shit code and then either quiting or deciding that wordpress is the greatest thing ever, so they dont need to learn any more.
For real - and the field from my POV is getting bearish on new blood.

The Software development bottle-neck is brutal - people that have no business being a developer feel forced to pursue the route because it's one of the few fields that appear to be 'open' with a high wage on offer, but the sheer amount of junior talent - especially after COVID is huge.

Then you have to deal with the attrition of those who've learned a few things from bootcamp, managed to get a foot in, stepped into production and realize how much they hate the field.

Makes hiring juniors a risk even if you're just hoping they can knock together a half-decent static page.
 
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alexkuzmov

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Nobody starts as an expert. Saying "it takes years to learn to code" is just wrong. Mastering it takes years and you don't have to be a master to get a job, or build projects.
And if you can manage to get some investors to invest in your project, you can hire better developers.

And not being a master doesn't mean you produce mass quantities of shit code. You still can write good code without being a senior. Even if you do produce shit code, there are seniors who check the code juniors write and fix it if there is anything wrong. This is how juniors learn.

Also I don't think there is anything wrong with using tools that makes the developers' life easier. I'm not some WP fan, and I don't say it's the greatest thing in the world, but show a little more respect to a CMS that powers %34 of all the websites, lol.

There are many people who became millionaires through Wordpress, either by developing and selling themes or starting an agency.


This forum is about making money through providing value at scale, and you don't have to be the best code monkey in the world in order to achieve that.
You are what is known as a "word twister".
You`ve entirely missed the point of what I`m saying and know nothing about what my position on CMSs is.
 

alexkuzmov

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For real - and the field from my POV is getting bearish on new blood.

The Software development bottle-neck is brutal - people that have no business being a developer feel forced to pursue the route because it's one of the few fields that appear to be 'open' with a high wage on offer, but the sheer amount of junior talent - especially after COVID is huge.

Then you have to deal with the attrition of those who've learned a few things from bootcamp, managed to get a foot in, stepped into production and realize how much they hate the field.

Makes hiring juniors a risk even if you're just hoping they can knock together a half-decent static page.
Well hiring new to a field people is always a risk, the more specialized the job, the higher the risk.
I wish more people would just stick it out, once they realize what comes after junior, but it doesnt workout that way usually.
Then again, the "hate" is a nice entry barier, which is nice.
 

TheKingOfMadrid

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Well hiring new to a field people is always a risk, the more specialized the job, the higher the risk.
I wish more people would just stick it out, once they realize what comes after junior, but it doesnt workout that way usually.
Then again, the "hate" is a nice entry barier, which is nice.
Of course, I've also found the risk of hiring developers is also mitigated when non-hr is involved in the recruitment process - tends to have a higher probability of weeding out the people that have copied and pasted the latest JavascriptMastery videos into their portfolio etc.

I think the larger issue for me is people feeling forced to work in the field. It's not meant for everyone and current educational systems do a poor job of showing what life's like at production level.
 
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Vinz

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Of course, I've also found the risk of hiring developers is also mitigated when non-hr is involved in the recruitment process - tends to have a higher probability of weeding out the people that have copied and pasted the latest JavascriptMastery videos into their portfolio etc.

I think the larger issue for me is people feeling forced to work in the field. It's not meant for everyone and current educational systems do a poor job of showing what life's like at production level.
I would like to know more .
What are the usual expectations of junior developers ?
How does it change being a junior vs becoming a senior ?
What do you mean by production level ? Like the day-to-day of a software development job ?

I see that a lot of people are entering programming, yes. And that worries me a little. But if you think about it it can't be the job for everyone.
Probably the promise of high pay is what is driving the supply, even if low quality.
So I assume by learning development in the right way, by becoming a solid developer you can still easily distinguish yourself from newbies .
And mind that I don't have on-field experience. I'm just making observations based also on what you say.

What are your predictions for the future ? Will the "bearishness" continue ? Will we have a "reset" about the hype that surrounds developer jobs ?
 

TheKingOfMadrid

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I would like to know more .
What are the usual expectations of junior developers ?
Speaking personally we'd look to hire a junior to pass on boilerplate or low-level tasks and free up Senior Dev's to meet KPI's.

This means at minimum Juniors should be able to come in with the ability to understand good coding practices, should have left tutorial hell and should be comfortable getting up to speed being able to make small commits to source with guidance from their assigned team lead (dev-ops stuff).

The reality that I see of many boot-camp style Juniors is they'd struggle to make it past the first sprint in a small scrum, and therefore many of them end up being used and abused at sweat-shops until they reach breaking point.

Code:
>How does it change being a junior vs becoming a senior ?

Reponsibility, complexity of tasks, ability to contribute in retrospective meetings and of course reducing errors are really the differences. It's not usually going to be a massive change but if you have a crunch time office style it can be stressful, and the expectations on high quality code should increase as your seniority increases.

The type of work you do depends on the company you work for and if you're developing new bleeding edge intergration or maintaining current systems etc, and thus the stress varies. The major change I'd say is the ability to think and conceptualize what you're actually doing and why you're doing it and understand concepts such as technical debt etc.

Code:
What are your predictions for the future ? Will the "bearishness" continue ? Will we have a "reset" about the hype that surrounds developer jobs ?

Job's aren't going away, and there will be a consistent need for good quality developers, the entry level is highly competitive now though and you have a lot of graduates struggling to get a decent job for months on end.

Do some people manage to bootcamp their way into jobs? Yes, but this is also slowing significantly as companies weigh up the costs and risks - similar is happening to QA testers, with a lot of testing now being done inter-discipline with developers (test as you go) as the cost of hiring additional testers isn't worth it post COVID.

Do be careful of people telling you that it's an ever-green field. COVID has meant that even more companies moved to hiring cheaper talent abroad and it's no longer possible to say that those developers are lower quality or more difficult to work with as a lot of organization has been done in these countries - meaning that you can contact agencies and get access to high quality, native c2 level speakers that produce good code for the fraction of the cost.

The bottom line is that if you study hard, produce a good portfolio then you will get a job - but the golden age has IMO gone.

What most people want to really know is - Would I recommend people to study and become a developer?

And the answer to this depends on what you think is happening in the world. Do you believe there is a forthcoming restructuring of the economy and a quasi-slavery system that you don't want to be part of?

If you do believe in this - then you need to also realize you do not have the time it would take you to develop the skills you would need to effectively compete in the market.

I would say to any young person looking to buy their freedom now - use what you have, learn enough about software and get into software sales.

Good sales guys are worth their weight in gold and are treated as such - the nice thing too is that you can take on multiple clients and build a huge network quickly, opening a lot of opportunities for travel, jobs etc when done correctly - allowing you to pivot into high scarcity fields down the road.
 
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