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Atlas Shrugged - Week 5: Ch 9 & 10

MTEE1985

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I really hope you guys talk about the mandates. I haven’t studied enough about socialism or communism to how clearly they connect to this..
Rands writing is definitely presenting socialism as opposed to communism as nobody has had their property confiscated. Who knows at the rate things are going though.

The mandates to me are a prime example of the averagecation of our country and everybody gets a trophy mindset.

All trains at 60mph and limited to 60 cars...why? Because not all trains can go 100mph with 100 cars like the John Galt line and we wouldn’t things to be unfair.

Limiting steel production based on what other plants can do? Another fair share ideal.m

I imagine the outcome will be that the producers who are profiting by offering a better product for less money will no longer have reason to do so and as a result the entire country will suffer.

Very much reminds me of this thread discussing Elizabeth Warren wanting to break up Facebook essentially because she doesn't like how big they are. Her next targets? Amazon, Google etc. I’ve never seen an argument for breaking up these companies that didn’t boil down to “they’re too big, that’s why and it isn’t fair!” They are bigger because they are better, faster, easier, cheaper and the market has responded by rewarding them.

The only difference in this book so far is the figurative gun to the head of the country’s most successful businesses, whereas our current government hasn’t taken it that far...yet.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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Ok I finally got a bit more time.

I know this week was a super long narration but I felt like the entire trajectory of the book changed in Chapter 10 - so I wanted to be clear about all the characters.

Ch 9 genuinely confused me. Hank and Dagny are like characters in a play using the symbols or props of bdsm but not having any of the foundational trust aspects. It’s like Rand had no personal knowledge of actual crazy hot rewarding sex but stole some of the spices she heard other ppl mention? Or.. maybe she had lots of crazy hot sex but only with ppl who didn’t know how to make it last?? Like.. maybe one night stands?

I can’t figure it out. The pieces don’t add up to me. All I know is that the moment I read of Dagny laughing .. it just struck an “Error Will Robinson” chord.

The flow with which Rand writes still amazes me though. She’s mingling perspective in ways that astound.

Scenery to first person to a convo back to scenery.. so fascinating.

Ch 10 was a runaway train of stuff happening.. and ugly, ugly characters. Poor Dagny, she’s destined to be desperately chasing something.

So I guess John Galt really did make the motor after all? I swear I think this whole book has him set up to be some kind of weird Messiah figure... meh.

I really hope you guys talk about the mandates. I haven’t studied enough about socialism or communism to how clearly they connect to this..

Anyhoo. I’m eager to hear everyone’s thoughts but I think this month will be crazy busy for all of us. Drop in when you can.
 

Primeperiwinkle

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Atlas Shrugged - Week 5: Chapters 9 & 10
Book Discussion Guidelines and Schedule

Hope you enjoyed your holiday festivities but if you didn’t, don’t worry we still like you.

Welcome back! I missed you! WTF is going on in this book?!?!???? My notes are crazy!

0FF1A8D8-1319-4861-929F-98E9AAC166C5.jpeg

Chapter 9: The Sacred and The Profane
Hank and Dagny talk about the act. He says “I held it as my honor that I would never need anyone” and “It’s depravity - there is no height of virtue that I wouldn’t give up for it.” Then Dagny who has a strange glittering serenity laughs like there’s no problem with Hank despising sex w/ her and says “I am an animal who wants nothing but the sensation of pleasure which you despise.”

Taggart brings 19 yo Cherryl Brooks home, rants about stuff, then drops her off. He has no desire to experience pleasure.

Orren Boyle, Dr. Floyd Ferris, Bertram Scudder and Mr. Mowen are ALL pissy.

Hank and Dagny go for a drive and find the Magical Motor of Awesomeness that will save the world if only they can find its creator. We MUST find the Creator!!!! He will save us alllll!!!!!!!

Chapter 10: Wyatt’s Torch
95CBEFD2-961B-44B6-8FA1-7EB83996070A.jpeg


Dagny and Hank play detectives and they find out a crapload of stuff.

okay I’m gonna try to put this in order...

Eugene Lawson “banker w/ a heart” in charge of Community National Bank.
He had bum “heartfelt” investments (INCLUDING the factory) all over the state of Wisconsin. The bank goes bust. He now works at The Bureau of Stupid.

Mayor Bascom “you’re either virtuous or you enjoy yourself” buys the factory for a steal. Then he sells it to..

Mark Yonts head of People’s Mortgage Company who then turns around and sells it TWICE to “suckers from South Dakota AND as collateral for a loan in Illinois”
Meanwhile, the former President of 20th Century is a guy named Lee Hunsacker who wants to write an autobiography but burns the stew. Mostly he blames a very successful guy named Midas Mulligan for never loaning him money.

There are three heirs to Jed Starnes (the guy who originally built the factory)
Eric - psycho suicide
Gerald - flophouse - steals from a bum
Ivy - fat chick studying enlightenment because her plan based on “love” among all the employees whose names she couldn’t be bothered to remember, didn’t work.

But SHE DOES REMEMBER AN ENGINEER!!

He’s dead. His wife, Mrs. Hastings (nice lady) points Dagny to duh duh duhhhhhhh!!!!

Hugh Akston working in a diner!!!!!

~~~~~Detective Job is DONE. ~~~~~~~

Meanwhile... the Bureau of Stupid w/ Wesley Mouch at the helm has implemented new mandates.

1. Max Speed on trains is 60 mph
2. Length of Freight Trains is 60 cars
3. All Steel Mills “must limit the max production of other metal alloys by other mills places in the same classification of plant capacity- and to supply a fair share of any metal alloy” to everybody
4. All manufacturing establishments are forbidden to move w/o permission
5. A moratorium on payments of interest and principal on all railroad bonds was declared for 5 yrs.
6. A tax on Colorado to pay for #5.

Dagny screams. Somebody says “Who is John Galt?” for like the 87th time.

Then, Ellis Wyatt burns everything he owns to the ground and disappears.

PHEW!
 

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Primeperiwinkle

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I need somebody to bring up:

A.) The theme of what someone says is not what their actions prove and vice versa.

B.) Who do you actually trust in this book at this point?

C.) The theme about virtue vs pleasure

D.) Lillian’s speech on self-sacrifice

E.) Explain the effects of the Mandates

F.) Why did the Factory ACTUALLY fail?

G.) Did you expect Hugh Akston???

H.) Which of the characters in these chapters was most loathsome to you???
 

Kruiser

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Just finished the chapters. Here are my initial impressions. I haven't read any of the other comments yet, but will later today.

//

Morning after speeches. Again... weird and more than a little twisted. This is only important because, at least in some ways, I think Rearden and Dagny exemplify Rand's idea of business virtues. Are those business virtues cut off from the rest of life? Is Rand putting forth Rearden and Dagny as human exemplars?

//

Rome, WI. Didn't at least some of the Wisconsin events take place in Rome? (Reading on Audible, so not easy to check text.) If so, I don't think the Rome reference is accidental. That whole section did kind of remind me of apocalyptic literature (of which I've read very little) where there are a remnant of people around the ruins of a much greater civilization, picking at its pieces. For some reason, it reminded me of seeing pockmarks in the stone of the Colosseum and learning that medieval Romans would simply try to strip the iron from the ancient architectural wonders because they couldn't get iron in other ways.

//

Decline of economy. Are we ever given an explanation for the overall decline of the economy? The anti-business laws seem to be pretty new and are being enacted while the plot proceeds. Did previous declines simply happen b/c many companies tried communistic plans like the car factory did?

//

Does anyone else get the impression sometimes that all the lame characters in the book are actually the same character? "No one gave me a chance, all the selfish people seeking profit, it wasn't my fault, etc." Seems like we've heard that speech from like 10 different people now.

//

Cool new engine. If put into production would kill need for oil and Wyatt's business. Right?

//

Lillian. Sorry, but I feel sorry for her. Also, that dude who is dedicating a book to her... I predict they're going to have an affair and that Rearden will find out and be oddly torn up about it.

//

Hugh Axton (sp?). It seems like the content of his thought is pretty important. I wish we knew more about what he thought and what he taught his students. He and at least two of his star students have sort of pulled back from public life or are going in odd directions. Why?

Is missing engineer his 3rd star student?

//

Wyatt. 1,000% understandable that he would just burn his wells to give the finger to the people who are screwing him over. But, did he just kill the entire U.S. economy? If so, I say that Wyatt's actions, while completely understandable, are not good.
 

scottmsul

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(Disclaimer: I've finished the next two chapters, but this post shouldn't contain anything new if you've read through 9&10)

I think I'm starting to see Rand's moral philosophy coming together more clearly. Some of her central tenants seem to be:
  • Pursuing one's own selfish desires through one's own work is the highest moral virtue
  • Looting someone else's work is evil
  • Barring looters from stealing your work is morally virtuous (and your right since you "own" your own work)
These might seem intuitively correct at first glance, but she's deliberately setting up scenarios where there's trade-offs between these moral principles and what most people consider morally good. For instance:
  • What is the morality of Hank cheating on his wife? He's in the most unfulfilling marriage possible, and is presented with (in his/Dagny's weird concept of relationships) the most fulfilling relationship possible. He's pursuing his own selfish desires. Is there a line, where if the marriage is bad enough, that it's ok to cheat? (I'm not saying it is or isn't, just pointing out that I believe Rand is)
  • What is the morality of Dr. Stadler's scientific work? He's presented as the "best" public science has to offer, but we're shown the consequences (in Rand's universe) of being publicly funded (eg funded from "looting"). The question is, in the real world, is publicly-funded science a good thing? We normally think of the moon landing, discovering the Higgs Boson, etc., as "good" things (as a former physics grad this hits home). Those things were done with Other People's Money, without their consent. Does that make their origins corrupt (in real life, not Rand's universe)?
  • What is the morality of the industrialists sabotaging their own work when they've had enough of the looters? If millions of people's standards of livings go down, people who had nothing to do with the industrialist/looter fight, is it still ok?
 

PapaGang

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I don't think I can chip in on all of your questions, but it seems that Hugh can make a tasty cheeseburger.

With him, Rand introduces another archetype: the zen-like philosopher who has mastered deliberate practice, staying in the moment, and enjoying the peace that comes with being completely ordinary, while producing excellence on a daily basis. Even if it is just making cheeseburgers. Of course, we know that these types have a masterful way of designing their life, so they acquire skills left and right. No telling the bounds of his knowledge. I love this guy. Of all the characters, this is the one I connect with.
 

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@Primeperiwinkle , I took your admonition to not read ahead so seriously that now I'm behind. I didn't read this week's chapters yet (because I thought I already did a few weeks ago).

I'll check in with y'all later.
 

Kruiser

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I need somebody to bring up:

A.) The theme of what someone says is not what their actions prove and vice versa.

B.) Who do you actually trust in this book at this point?

C.) The theme about virtue vs pleasure

D.) Lillian’s speech on self-sacrifice

E.) Explain the effects of the Mandates

F.) Why did the Factory ACTUALLY fail?

G.) Did you expect Hugh Akston???

H.) Which of the characters in these chapters was most loathsome to you???
A. Don't know.
B. Eddie Willers. Nice everyman caught up in events beyond his comprehension.
C. Don't know.
D. Don't have text in front of me. Think Lillian is just a poor, confused woman who just wants her husband to love her. All her BS and unlikeability would disappear if he did.
E. In trying to make things "fair" for everyone, makes business unprofitable and unsustainable for the winners.
F. At first, communist ideas caused top talent to leave. Then, because communist ideas suck and are unworkable, factory became unprofitable and failed. New owners started it up again, but CO competitor came up with new engine that made WI factory's engine obsolete. Unfair! SAD!
G. I did not expect Hugh to be making burgers in a Wyoming diner. But he had to show up again somewhere. His thought (which we still don't know anything about) is key to understanding D'anconia and the pirate.
H. Stew guy.
 

Strategery

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It’s like Rand had no personal knowledge of actual crazy hot rewarding sex but stole some of the spices she heard other ppl mention? Or.. maybe she had lots of crazy hot sex but only with ppl who didn’t know how to make it last?? Like.. maybe one night stands?
There's a book called "The Ayn Rand Cult" that supposedly gets into her "aggressiveness." I thought there was a documentary about her by the same name.

But this theme is also very present in The Fountainhead.
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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There's a book called "The Ayn Rand Cult" that supposedly gets into her "aggressiveness." I thought there was a documentary about her by the same name.

But this theme is also very present in The Fountainhead.
I can totally see her as a cult leader.. huh.
 

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I can’t figure it out. The pieces don’t add up to me. All I know is that the moment I read of Dagny laughing .. it just struck an “Error Will Robinson” chord.
I can't comment on most of your paragraph.

But I thought Dagny's laughter at Rearden's little speech was entirely appropriate. He gave an overly self-serious and ridiculous speech claiming he desired her only as a whore. Yet, it is clear, their attraction to each other exists on multiple levels and they are BSing each other and themselves.

I don't want to drill down into this more... because that would be weird.

Still, I do think Rand's understanding of human sexuality is just one key to understanding how broken and anti-human her "philosophy" is.
 
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Does anyone else get the impression sometimes that all the lame characters in the book are actually the same character? "No one gave me a chance, all the selfish people seeking profit, it wasn't my fault, etc." Seems like we've heard that speech from like 10 different people now.
I actually hadn’t made this connection until you said something but now I’m like.... YES! They all uniformly blame others!

D. Don't have text in front of me. Think Lillian is just a poor, confused woman who just wants her husband to love her. All her BS and unlikeability would disappear if he did.
Uhhh she’s bitter af.. it’s beyond lonely.

I don't want to drill down into this more... because that would be weird.
It would be weird. I’ve been trying to figure out how to address it because obviously it’s going to be throughout the whole book.. but I don’t think it’s gonna be possible to discuss this well online.

I’m seeing the book from a completely different perspective than a lot of ppl, I think, because I have been friends with ppl active in the bdsm community. But I obviously can’t speak for them.. it’s just that the book is really .. bizarre to me because .. there have been several instances where I know w/o a shadow of a doubt that even ppl who are into dominating behavior would label Dagny and Hank’s relationship as unhealthy. That’s all I meant. I don’t think I’ll be bringing it up again.

I haven’t started this weeks reading yet but I’m gonna try to radically pare down my summaries from here on out. I just don’t have the time.
 

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What is the morality of Hank cheating on his wife? He's in the most unfulfilling marriage possible, and is presented with (in his/Dagny's weird concept of relationships) the most fulfilling relationship possible. He's pursuing his own selfish desires. Is there a line, where if the marriage is bad enough, that it's ok to cheat? (I'm not saying it is or isn't, just pointing out that I believe Rand is)
I don't think she's implying it's ok to cheat just because it happens in the book, though she might have been one of those people who say "wELL wHaT diD yOu eXPeCt?". In fact, after all the self-righteousness and morals that she plants on Hank's character, which I can relate to (ok, your marriage sucks, you can still be better than going behind the other one's back), I expected him to have an enlightened moment and just dump Lillian, THEN go bananas with Dagny. It would have been just as "selfish" (not really, I just consider him doing what he really wanted to do in his heart) without making him a cheater.

I feel to some extent she also wants them to "have dirty hands" in their own way, like their own desires "corrupt them", except these desires are ok in comparison to the other characters, idk, greed? Like I don't see the purpose in making Hank a cheater or putting this whole affair thing into some sort of "guilty pleasure". That's about the best I could do to articulate this thought lol
 

scottmsul

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I’m having a hard time thinking of an industry that could do this with similar dire effects... did you have an example in mind?
I didn't have one in mind when I posted, I was thinking about how at the start of chapter 11, Robert Stadler was complaining about being cold from no heating because of the oil shortage. If he had friends in the government getting him extra oil, think about how bad it must be for everyone else without friends in the government.

An example in real life was when Spain passed a law requiring companies that share news articles pay those news companies some specified amount (even if the news companies didn't want it). Google News just left the country completely. This hurt Spanish publishers more than it helped because they were getting a lot of free traffic from Google.

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/9f7fmj View: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/9f7fmj/this_is_how_google_news_looks_like_from_spain/
 

BizyDad

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These might seem intuitively correct at first glance, but she's deliberately setting up scenarios where there's trade-offs between these moral principles and what most people consider morally good
Yes. This exactly.

I just caught up with the reading yesterday, and this is my core issue right now with this book. It's setting up this juxtaposition in its views on government, on religion, and society.

I haven't had time to write out all my thoughts, but I agree point with this totally. That was what stood out to me most in these two chapters.

I also think it is pointing out the corruption that can take place in any human institution. So it is setting up the moral good of the individuals self interest (need and greed) as the "right way". Survival of the fittest taken to it's logical end.

I don't feel like it is shining the quite the same light on people's inner corruption. IDK. It is,but in a tap dancing around it kind of way. The villains' inner corruption is shown plainly. The heroes' inner corruption is explained away.

I enjoyed the new mystery caper in these chapters. I'm enjoying the reading for the most part. I love the questions this book is forcing me to ask myself.

But I also get the feeling that I will just fundamentally disagree with anyone who espouses Randian philosophy hook, line, and sinker. I'm not certain yet, but it looks that way.

I want to know where this secret society of capable men is going with all this disappearing. How long before Hank joins them?

And when does John Galt find Dagny?!?! That's been teased a lot already. This book needs a love quadrilateral...
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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What is the morality of the industrialists sabotaging their own work when they've had enough of the looters? If millions of people's standards of livings go down, people who had nothing to do with the industrialist/looter fight, is it still ok?
I’m having a hard time thinking of an industry that could do this with similar dire effects... did you have an example in mind?
 

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Today, I feel like it would be the equivalent of Google or Amazon shutting down their operations overnight, just to give everyone the finger.

A lot of people's jobs depend on Google's infrastructure. It's not just Google employees and YouTubers. Most of my work depends on G Suite.

In 2016, there was a DDoS attack that brought down Twitter, Shopify, Soundcloud, Spotify, and other large sites for a few hours.

I was working at a large marketing agency at the time, and this situation caused hours of lost productivity for me and my coworkers (around 500 people). And that was just one company.

I shudder to think of the billions of dollars in lost productivity that would happen if Google went offline, even for one day.
 

BizyDad

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The bank bailout and auto bailout, as just two examples from the recent past.

The banking crisis in particular was self-inflicted too.
 
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I was kinda hopin y’all would jump in with your answers... the dude asked good questions... any second I feel confident you’re gonna jump in... no? Ok here I go.

What is the morality of Hank cheating on his wife? He's in the most unfulfilling marriage possible, and is presented with (in his/Dagny's weird concept of relationships) the most fulfilling relationship possible. He's pursuing his own selfish desires. Is there a line, where if the marriage is bad enough, that it's ok to cheat? (I'm not saying it is or isn't, just pointing out that I believe Rand is)
All morality is based on how you define virtue; what group of standards do you use? You can only judge moral standards for yourself.

Hank has not proclaimed his adherence to a rule book but he does take pride in his individual moral standard, his standard of being honest in ALL his actions .. above reproach. That’s why he feels conflicted.

I think Rand is trying to make the argument that certain standards are worthless. That ppl “should” drop them because they just make ppl feel guilty.

But nobody’s forcing Hank to feel guilty. He’s doing that to himself.

The question is, in the real world, is publicly-funded science a good thing? We normally think of the moon landing, discovering the Higgs Boson, etc., as "good" things (as a former physics grad this hits home). Those things were done with Other People's Money, without their consent. Does that make their origins corrupt (in real life, not Rand's universe)?
I don’t think it is a good thing. I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call it corrupt though. I think it’s started with good intent but then easily twisted to further goals which do not serve the ppl who were forced to fund it.

What is the morality of the industrialists sabotaging their own work when they've had enough of the looters? If millions of people's standards of livings go down, people who had nothing to do with the industrialist/looter fight, is it still ok?
An industry isn’t a building but I think the comparison is interesting. If a person designs and builds a house then makes money off of the house by renting it out - no one faults him.

If his renters then proceed to systematically destroy the house and make it unlivable.. would anyone fault him for telling them to leave THEN burning it down and beginning again?

It’s really the telling them to leave part that’s tricky. But I wouldn’t fault anybody for doing that.
 

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