Atlas Shrugged - Week 2: Chapters 3-4

[Primeperiwinkle]

I need more ppl to weigh in cuz I really don’t know. I’m still making up my mind.

 

[BizyDad]

From where I'm sitting, this scene is one in which Dagny is a beacon is light for Hank. He's not been exposed to many people who are like Dagny; he is surrounded by idiots, buffoons and leeches.

To get exposure to Dagny is like seeing the world as it is for the first time; and as he tries to reconcile the fact that there are other people in the world who share his values, he is conflicted because it's so different to how everyone else he knows thinks about the world where he is the weird one who is materialistic.

Just my take.

Wow. I felt this comment deserved more than just a like.

 

[MTEE1985]

Do you need intelligence? Certainly.

I’m not dismissing intelligence. Both Taggarts are intelligent, only one is decisive with it. My money is on her 100% of the time.

Ideally they are used together but we just don’t see that often in life. Gun to my head, I’ll take a decisive person over a “smart” one.

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

Intelligence without action is nothing more than masturbation, imo.

Someone who is a 0/10 in either intelligence or action will always be screwed.

Someone who is a 5/10 on intelligence and a 10/10 on action will beat the person who is 10/10 on intelligence and 5/10 on action...every single day of the week.

Someone who is intelligent and decisive (like Francisco or Dagny), who is a 10/10 on both is an unstoppable force. Real life examples of this include Bezos, Musk and Gates.

Beat them at what? Everything? Is this an absolute? (I know I’m fighting for the whiny donut eaters of the world but I feel COMPELLED to argue.. I dunno why.)

Dammit. I just thought a scripture verse that agrees with you. Whatevs. Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

*goes to get candy

 

[reedracer]

More Chapters, Aye!

 

[StrikingViper69]

Are you saying he’s purposely punishing the wealthy?

he isn’t interested in punishing the wealthy...

Bernie will make more sense after “the speech”.

 

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[broswoodwork]

Thomas Edison tried to persuade the public that Nikola Tesla’s Alternate Current is dangerous by electrocuting an elephant to prove his point (this really

View: https://youtu.be/DtE-EmXUmnY

 

[Kruiser]

This also raises a philosophical question: are values moral only if they consider and highly regard other people?

Ha, ha. Isn't this essentially THE core question the book raises? I have my thoughts, but can't develop them right now.

 

[csalvato]

Ha, ha. Isn't this essentially THE core question the book raises? I have my thoughts, but can't develop them right now.

Yeah, I think it’s best for previous readers to not weigh in on this yet.

I don’t consider it a spoiler, just a good question for new readers to consider if it hadn’t occurred to them yet, especially because it came up practically in @BizyDad ’s implicit definition of values (assuming your previous assertion on his intentions was correct, @Kruiser )

 

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[Bekit]

Ya’ll.

People!

I. am. reading. Chapter V.

Y’all!!!

Not one of you stopped me. Not ONE.

“Oh Primeperiwinkle! You’re reading one of my favorite books, a book discussion on a PUBLIC FORUM sounds greaaaat”

Smh. You ppl knew. And you let me start.. Smdh.

This freaking book is raw and intense and and I wouldn’t even want to discuss this with my close friends LET ALONE PERFECT STRANGERS! Except! I want to figure it all out!!

Thankfully for my little romantic heart I have read books finer and more lovely that put this one to shame so I know I will be protected from being swept up into book reading delight and carried away by this.. but whew!

How would anyone younger than 35 bear it?!?

How the heck am I gonna sum up Ch 5?!?

Omg I’m just using this post to ramble.. someone bring me hot chocolate.

THANK GOD for my boyfriend. That is all.

Oh no. What are we in for? Are we ALL gonna need hot chocolate for this one?

(To the book discussion leader: does this count as a spoiler?) ...
...
...
Oh wait.
...
...
Never mind.
...
...
...
Couldn't resist

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

Oh no. What are we in for? Are we ALL gonna need hot chocolate for this one?

Bekit!!!!!!!! We are ALL going to need hot chocolate!!!!!

Thank God you’re in this book discussion!! We need tissues and things to throw and chocolate!!! Sooo much chocolate!! Hahaha..

hugs hugs hugs!!

 

[broswoodwork]

Ya’ll.

People!

I. am. reading. Chapter V.

Y’all!!!

Not one of you stopped me. Not ONE.

“Oh Primeperiwinkle! You’re reading one of my favorite books, a book discussion on a PUBLIC FORUM sounds greaaaat”

Smh. You ppl knew. And you let me start.. Smdh.

This freaking book is raw and intense and and I wouldn’t even want to discuss this with my close friends LET ALONE PERFECT STRANGERS! Except! I want to figure it all out!!

Thankfully for my little romantic heart I have read books finer and more lovely that put this one to shame so I know I will be protected from being swept up into book reading delight and carried away by this.. but whew!

How would anyone younger than 35 bear it?!?

How the heck am I gonna sum up Ch 5?!?

Omg I’m just using this post to ramble.. someone bring me hot chocolate.

THANK GOD for my boyfriend. That is all.

Lol... yeah.

 

[lludwig]

We're going to all have a few awkward moments together working through the book and Ayn's unique take on... ummm... intimacy(?).

That's parts of the book I don't get.

 

[BizyDad]

The next time I read this, I'm out. It's starting to get under my skin to be honest.

I read the book 10-11 years ago, and I was commenting under the discussion leader's remark on the subject matter of the next chapter without revealing a single spoiler.

It won't happen again. I was hoping the emoji would make it funny, but no. Cool.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

See what the book is doing to you already? LOL.

The book didn’t do that. Lol. That’s me just, not usually on this forum.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

oh I forgot.. @lludwig

 

[Bekit]

“This, she knew, was a tribute to her, the rarest one person could pay another: the tribute of feeling free to acknowledge one’s own greatness, knowing that it is understood.” – Source quote: Atlas Shrugged

“If joy is the aim and the core of existence, she thought, and if that which has the power to give one joy is always guarded as one’s deepest secret, then they had seen each other naked in that moment.” – Source quote: Atlas Shrugged

Wow, thank you.

I see I am missing out on a lot. This whole scene was cut down to like two paragraphs in my version. Guess I need to switch over to the real book.

 

[Strategery]

They're looking for the next boat to jump onto before the one they're on sinks. The sad part is that they might legitimately be too stupid to realize they're the ones sinking the boat with all their rat crap.

I love this, wonderfully put.

I see I am missing out on a lot. This whole scene was cut down to like two paragraphs in my version. Guess I need to switch over to the real book.

Atlas Shrugged

Check out this great listen on Audible.com. In a scrap heap within an abandoned factory, the greatest invention in history lies dormant and unused. By what fatal error of judgment has its value gone unrecognized, its brilliant inventor punished rather than rewarded for his efforts? In defense of...

www.audible.com

Do you have that version?

 

[reedracer]

Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?

He should buy the Conway line and bust all their alliance crap to hell.

 

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[BizyDad]

James Taggart decided to build the San Sebastian. James Taggart is crushing the Phoenix Durango.

I'm just saying those people you mention were more than just decisive and smart.

Gun to my head, I'd rather be decisive and smart too, but that is no guarantee for success. Literally thousands of those people "fail" every year.

You guys keep presenting this dicussion as decisiveness vs intelligence and then saying it's both. I can't keep up.

 

[StrikingViper69]

Though to get back to modern-day, Bernie Sanders makes statements about taxing Billionaire's wealth without even understanding the economic consequences that would occur. As if billionaires have their money under a mattress. Though it becomes clear it's not about helping the poor it's about punishing the successful.

I think Bernie understands the consequences of his policies better than the people voting for him... and better than the people he's running against

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

I wasn't going to mention it because I am not sure how things end up for him and didn't want to insult you but now that you say you like him... At the beginning his character was reminding me of you.

I am in chapter 10 now and I am not seeing you as much recently

Oh don’t read ahead we won’t get to hear you wondering about stuff! Poo.

 

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[lludwig]

I think Bernie understands the consequences of his policies better than the people voting for him... and better than the people he's running against

Are you saying he’s purposely punishing the wealthy?

 

[lludwig]

he isn’t interested in punishing the wealthy...

Bernie will make more sense after “the speech”.

I read the book already. I thought you were referring to something else.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Yes. Buy unabridged books if you want the full experience. Buy abridged if you want to get 75% of the experience.

Did you get a plane? Lol. Nice pic dude!

 

[BizyDad]

This implies that someone like Dagny can see the outcome.

Indecisiveness causes indecision, not lack of knowledge imo.

And indecisiveness is caused by thinking you need to know the outcome, which is all but impossible when considering common business and life decisions where the outcome is always unknown.

Imo indecision comes from not knowing your values, because in times where you can’t predict the outcome, you will make the decision that is consistent with your values and beliefs.

Dagny knows her values. Yes, she also knows her industry... I think that’s secondary.

Are we reading the same book? Dagny can see outcomes. That's not an implication; it's in the book.

Dagny correctly predicted the nationalization of the San Sebastian (I'd love to know how she figured that out). She and Dan Conway seemingly accurately predicted the future if she doesn't rebuild the Rio Norte line. She knows it, Dan knows it, Orren Boyle knows it, Hank Reardon knows it.

She's (They're) able to do these things because she knows her industry. I think @reedracer is right.

When asked why she made a decision, she always has a thought out reason. She presents research/evidence, not values. In contrast, James Taggart presents values as reasons for his actions. And yet, he's the one we've labelled as indecisive.

What am I missing?

It seems like maybe you are sharing things you've found to work for you, which is cool. Everyone's entitled to their life view. But you're also acting like the book backs you up, so I'm confused.

Can you make this connection more obvious? What part of the book makes you think her decisiveness is based on values? Which values is she relying on? Where does she discuss or ponder these values? How do you feel about James Taggart as decisive or indecisive and as a values based decider? Can that character help make your point?

Side note... if indecisiveness causes indecision, then does decisiveness cause decision?
Side side note... Isn't this begging the question?

 

[broswoodwork]

It won't happen again. I was hoping the emoji would make it funny, but no. Cool.

Sorry... I'm just being cranky. Don't mind me.

That's my third hand slap for what I'm viewing as cryptic comments or non-spoilers. A pattern is emerging. I learn more with my mouth shut and my ears open anyways, so I'll just follow along more quietly.

 

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[lludwig]

What I do notice, when comparing the entrepreneurs in the book to the fast lane mindset, is that the entrepreneurs don't seem to care about creating value first, but really focus on money as their main driver.

IHMO that’s why many aren’t wealthy.

While it's fine to focus on making money, you need to add value. Otherwise, you'll never get wealthy.


It needs to be a 'win-win' trade. You need to add more value then what people are willing to pay for.

 

[Kruiser]

I sincerely doubt I’ll be able to continue to make any more jokes like this.. but for now I just.. I have to type it..

See what the book is doing to you already? LOL.

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

New week is up now!