Atlas Shrugged - Week 2: Chapters 3-4

[Primeperiwinkle]

Soooooo much tension!! And Paul Larkin!! Wtf?!?!?

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Oh, yeah, I work for a Taggert Trancontinental whose CEO just got 'promoted' to the EU commission. The reality of these archetypes is insane.

I'm loving reading this book!

I cannot fathom having to deal with ppl like this!! All my clients talk about their stress and the petty bs they have to deal with in the corporate world and I’m the super sheltered chill person over here who walked out of the only white collar job I ever had after a total of 28 minutes.

I’m putting you on the comfy couch and serving you hot chocolate. This book would be horribly depressing if it related to ANY part of my real life! Keep your chin up my friend! Lol

 

[csalvato]

James Taggart suuuucks.

I know, everyone me else already said it it. Maybe George RR Martin spoiled me, I was really hoping for some grade A level schemer.

Instead he is the giant man baby everyone said he was last time. Just took me a couple chapters to catch up. I hate him. I feel bad for Dagny for being related to him.

GRRM is a very different kind of writer.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Ok I can’t help myself, plus I have a whole day of work and won’t have time to type anyway. I think I found something we can argue about! Rofl

Italics are me saying those parts really slowly while holding my caramel macchiato!

Do you agree with these?? Why or why not?!?

On the bottom of pg 87 “This, she knew, was a tribute to her, the rarest one person could pay another: the tribute of feeling free to acknowledge one’s own greatness, knowing that it is understood.”

And

“If joy is the aim and the core of existence, she thought, and if that which has the power to give one joy is always guarded as one’s deepest secret, then they had seen each other naked in that moment.”

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

This type of thinking helps me sympathize with Dan Conway especially. Why bother trying to do anything else when what you build gets stolen.

Hank says something about the whole situation w/ Conway when he said that type of ineptitude is worthless or self-defeating.. we just have to keep going.

If the martyrdom of one saint can open a nation to Christianity I’m assuming that the martyrdom of one excellent business might pave the way for industrial change? That’s a research project.. I wonder how many amazing companies/ppl went first.. sacrificed.. like Tesla.

She is being something more important than being smart. She is being decisive.

I fundamentally disagree with this down to the marrow of my bones and I may end up having an emotional breakdown about it somewhere in the future but until then.. I love your thoughts. Lol.

Are we really rating action over intelligence? This has to be a false dichotomy.. you need both.

Dagny has other options. She could leave Taggart Transcontinental entirely. She could merge with Conway.. she could.. oh I dunno.. something!!

 

[lludwig]

Anyone else surprised at the pace of the book? For a book that's 1,600 or something pages, I was expecting some of these events to happen a little later.

I think we are in for a wild wild ride.

It gets better (worse ).

 

[lludwig]

I have to say I often relate so much to the almost depressed way about both Dagny and Hank. Surrounded by way too many people that "don't get it." Both from a business perspective and a political perspective. It is highly frustrating to the point of wanting to refrain from some social encounters.

...

This misunderstanding and unidimensional thinking of the the James Taggart type parallels a lot of what we hear from people like Bernie Sanders when they BRAG about erasing the net worth of billionaires with a wealth tax. A remedy for an effect without even considering the cause. What cause created that billionaire? What cause are you erasing by erasing that profit motive effect?

...

If we were to accurately argue what he wants to do, it is to get rid of the ability to become a billionaire. Which means getting rid of the profit motive. Which means getting rid of the things we do for profit. Which means dumping an entire enterprise that employs, serves and profits an asking market of people.

I agree with most of this sentiment, unfortunately.

There are a lot of stupid people spewing stupid ideologies. The point is people emote more and more (what about the poor people!) then being rational. That's NOT to say we can't help the unfortunate, but we shouldn't be altruistic and sacrifice the rich.

Though to get back to modern-day, Bernie Sanders makes statements about taxing Billionaire's wealth without even understanding the economic consequences that would occur. As if billionaires have their money under a mattress. Though it becomes clear it's not about helping the poor it's about punishing the successful.

You'll hear a lot about altruism, but not in the traditional sense but how Ayn Rand and Objectivism defines it.

"What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue, and value.

Do not confuse altruism with kindness, goodwill or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice—which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction—which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good."

Ayn Rand's book - The Virtue of Selfishness goes into more detail on this.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0451163931/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

and this recent book by Peter Schwartz

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1137280166/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20

I can understand now how communism/socialism and religion are very much related, but that's a discussion for another day.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

For most of my life I disagreed with it as well because that’s not what we were taught. We were taught that the most educated by the system were the future leaders and the world changers. As I’ve advanced in age I see more and more that it’s simply not true.

Do you need intelligence? Certainly. Jim Taggart is very intelligent. Those people don’t move the world though. The critical thinkers, the risk takers and the decisive ones who are confident in their decision do.

This world is filled with people who want to defer any and all decisions to others. It’s also filled with intelligent people. I’d rather hire somebody with the gall to take over my responsibilities than one who waits to be told what to do.

I saw an article not too long ago about a very successful VC who asked one questions of his investments: “What if it works?” That is what Dagny is saying. If Rearden metal is as good as she thinks than she will not only save the company but grow it astronomically.

If it doesn’t work? Doesn’t really matter at that point. The world needs more people asking what if it works. Those people are the producers who leave the world a better place.

I spent the last hour consulting w/ a man who has done everything humanly possible to force his body to function more efficiently.. he has been active 1000x more than most ppl would dream in his pursuit of healing.

It still didn’t work.

Yet. When I used my intelligence to address the situation in a completely different way.. stuff changed. And when I say “stuff” I mean his actual joints and bones moved to different places.

Meh. This is a personal button. I just.. I can’t put my finger on it but.. there’s something wrong with touting “Take Action! Take Action!” if you’re dismissing intelligent meditation to prepare for those actions. Going too far in EITHER direction seems foolish to me. I think they have to be used together.

 

[BizyDad]

You know who you don't hear about anymore? All the other college dropouts that started computer companies in the 80's.

To say that life rewards the risk takers as revisionist history.

For every Bill Gates there's a thousand who don't make it.

For every Robert de Niro there's a thousand two don't make it.

Back before the.com bubble burst there were plenty of people saying, what if it works? Amazon survived. How many others?

by all accounts, Amazon has a smart leadership team and always has. So did Apple, so did Microsoft.

Who says smart people don't change the world? I'm thinking of Jonas Salk.

Smart and decisive are not mutually exclusive.

 

[BizyDad]

I’m not dismissing intelligence. Both Taggarts are intelligent, only one is decisive with it. My money is on her 100% of the time.

Ideally they are used together but we just don’t see that often in life. Gun to my head, I’ll take a decisive person over a “smart” one.

That last comment sounds like you're being dismissive of smart people. But hey, the gun's to your head.

To be fair, James Taggart destroyed a competitor decisively. He also built a railroad.

He makes decisions. He just doesn't seem to be too "business smart".

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

I can't think of anything where this is not true.

History is rife with examples in every domain, from scientific discovery (Watson & Crick compared to Franklin), manpowered space flight (The Wright Brothers compared to Samuel Pierpont Langley) to space travel (SpaceX/Musk compared to NASA/JPL)....

Micro-examples are all over this forum, as well.

I'd be inclined for you to point out a counter example where the more clearly more intelligent person accomplished their goals better than the person with an action bias.

*whimpers in the corner

I can't think of anything where this is not true.

History is rife with examples in every domain, from scientific discovery (Watson & Crick compared to Franklin), manpowered space flight (The Wright Brothers compared to Samuel Pierpont Langley) to space travel (SpaceX/Musk compared to NASA/JPL)....

Micro-examples are all over this forum, as well.

I'd be inclined for you to point out a counter example where the more clearly more intelligent person accomplished their goals better than the person with an action bias.

It’s not.. ugh.. I’m just saying being prepared is better than randomly taking action..

*whimpers in the corner

Lol not really but lol.. but.. gahh I don’t know!

 

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[BizyDad]

TLDR: Active ppl are like Alexander the Great, Thinkers are like Aristotle. The world needs both.

Ok, I’d like to clarify terms.

You’re talking about ppl who act vs people who sit around doing mental masturbation. The equivalent in my mind is between a person who starts a business selling knickknacks vs a person who takes three months to design their perfect Knick knack business cards.

I have a lot more in common with the business card dreamer. I concur with you. A person who takes action in business will always outperform a person who never acts or a person who takes very little action.

Now, I had a fascinating conversation this evening with an extremely wealthy client (If his job title, car, and mighty girth are any indication) about General Patton and this quote “A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.”

I agree with that quote. I’m relatively sure I agree with everything you’re saying @csalvato

But my brain had already skipped ahead and slid into thinking about just how valuable restfulness truly is. To me, action is the right leg; intelligent thoughtfulness is the left leg. When they work together we have progress. A person who puts no value on deep intellectual work will function but they’ll end up in circles. They might succeed at first but they’ll be outdone by the person who acts and thinks hard and gets restored and tries again.

But then my brain kept on going... I wasn’t thinking about assessment or planning or sitting around developing strategy.. . I was thinking about stuff like this book discussion or fine poetry or the deep calm breathing that happens while sitting in front of the fire. THAT is the other half of Action that is imperative for balance. My friend mentioned yin and yang and I think that’s how I feel. Action and Rest. War and Home.

People talk about action as the end all be all and, I get feisty. Tell me who made the bigger influence Alexander The Great or Aristotle who taught him? You can’t. They’re BOTH important.

One of the reasons I’m fighting for this SLOW ON PURPOSE book discussion is because I see ridiculously hardworking ACTIVE men and women every day who are miserable. They’re stressed and they don’t take time to restore their hearts or get encouragement or exercise their brains in ANY area BUT work. It’s not healthy. They don’t even know how to think deeply about a topic sometimes. They know how to make tons of money (much more than me) they know how to run companies (they always want to help me) but they don’t enjoy much or notice the smell of Fall or think about adding virtue to the world and they don’t have besties who make them snacks. I feel bad for them. But if they didn’t work their tired butts off the world wouldn’t be half as awesome as it is.

If Rand hadn’t made the connection to lightning for us or written this book with such a foreboding imminent tone of danger.. I would be rooting nonstop for Rearden while feeling immense pity towards him. As it is, I’m already a nervous wreck thinking about Dagny. I want her safe. But she won’t be. She’s an Alexander the Great. As for me, I’d rather be (at least a little) like Aristotle.

Phew! I’m out.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

And ANOTHER thing!

Y’all who are reading this book fast.. I love you guys but.. you’re doing a disservice to yourself. You have an opportunity here to experience something.. and you don’t see it but you’ll miss out by going fast. Truly.

It’s like shoving $500 chocolate down your throat. This book isn’t crappy candy from the dollar store. But whatevs. If I don’t change your mind about Measured Reading with this epic book discussion I’ll just hafta try again next year with another.. Oy.

To all of you who are committed to staying on schedule, I salute you and thank you. Remind me to buy you a drink or give you a hug or otherwise support your endeavors. It wouldn’t be fun without you.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

At the risk of sounding like a philosophical dickhead: this is a straw man.

1. You're refuting the argument that restfulness is a waste. I never said that. I value restfulness.
2. You're refuting the argument that thoughtfulness is a waste. I never said that. I value thoughtfulness.
3. You're refuting the argument that intelligence is a waste. I value intellect.
4. You're refuting the argument that planning is a waste. I never said that. I value planning.

My actual assertion is this: all things being equal, you want to have a bias towards action and decisiveness – even if you're not sure what you're doing is the "right"or "smart" thing.

One who is comfortable making decisions when not having time to properly plan; without knowing if it's the "right" or "smart" choice; will go farther than the person who takes hours, days, weeks or years meticulously thinking about and plans every step of the way.

My assertion is that it's best to make informed decisions, but that's often a luxury. The better way to go is to just make a decision and act with the information you have.

If it is the wrong one, 999/1000 times you can correct that wrong decision with a future correct one.

The greatest minds in history would almost always agree, and if you read their autobiographies, often have direct quotes that state very similarly what I say above.

And this is also the value that Dagny embodies 100% in her character so far.

----------------------------------------

PS - To batter at the straw man for a minute: Aristotle, Salk and Einstein are action takers/leaders/decision makers, just like Bezos, Alexander the Great and Rockfeller.

That is, Aristotle is not the opposite of Alexander the Great. He took action and made decisions daily, and was arguing in the forums daily, teaching people and refining his explanations/methods.

The other side of the "Alexander the Great" spectrum is not Aristotle: it's the the person who is binge watching netflix sitcoms and documentaries all day every day, thoughtlessly growing to 800 lbs by eating Big Macs every day while collecting disability and welfare checks.

----------------------------------------

PPS - Based on everything you've said, it's clear we are in complete agreement. It was still worth pointing out the straw man, though, because it seems like you're working on reconciling the notion of greatness and how it relates to taking action.

You don’t sound like a philosophical dickhead at all. You sound like someone who values staying on track, logically following a sequence. I like it.

The thing is I don’t think that way, at all, so I’m going to need to you to keep editing my rambles and put them all in order (with this level of kindness I hope).

That way all my emotional stuff and zigzagging ness that is me sifting through ideas will be stripped right out.

Because I AM reconciling greatness and action. I don’t agree with you about .. something in here. I’m scrabbling for mental ground to stand on because oy you’re wicked smart. Hence the whimpering and going off on a tangent.

Sadly, I don’t think you’re a person who can help me make any huge internal shifts philosophically but I do appreciate you calling me out on stuff. I will continue to think it over.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Let me tell you, it is NOT easy restraining myself to stay on pace. Even if it is like gobbling down $500 chocolate like it was Cheerios or something.

I usually read books like a golden retriever eats raw chicken chunks that you drop over its nose: I greedily wolf down the words. Without chewing.


Once I get into a story, I will keep. wolfing. it. down. even to the detriment of sleep and valuable tasks. It's as if this compulsion comes over me and I can't stop turning pages, even when I get to the point where I'm so tired that I'm holding one eye open at a time.

So (A) it is very dangerous for me to allow myself to get into an engaging book, and (B) it's shocking to me that I've been able to convince myself to stay on pace this time.


Nother topic... I'm just gonna leave this here.






No, my version looks like this:
View attachment 28540
11 hours 34 minutes.

Versus Audible: 62 hours and 56 minutes. So my version is reduced to a paltry one-sixth of itself.

Upside: I get more of the action and less of the talking and descriptive adjectives.

Downside: I didn't hear about the rats. There was no scene so far where d'Anconia and Dagny even interacted, much less one where he made her cry. The lightning bolt was left out. A lot of stuff y'all are talking about is simply missing.

Bekit.. I think you’d really enjoy the writing of the original. It’s fabulous.

 

[Strategery]

Dagny CANNOT see outcomes.

Dagny makes reasoned predictions based on what she knows and intuits.

She does not have a crystal ball.

She still must be decisive in the face of the unknown.

Like the gumball machine in Unscripted ... She's got more gold

 

[StrikingViper69]

I read the Bernie Sanders discussion earlier in this thread. Anyone else feel like part of the mainstream narrative is about punishing the rich and successful?

Scrabbling around in the dirt doesn't look too bad, if everyone else is doing it too. At least, that's how some people think...

 

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[csalvato]

@csalvato and @BizyDad

My sense is that you guys are talking past each other because you are using completely different definitions of "values."

@csalvato is using "values" to mean that which a person regards as important (or something roughly like that). Using that definition, Dagny (and everyone else in the world) makes decisions based on values.

@BizyDad is using "values" much more narrowly to mean "supposedly other-centered social niceness" (or something roughly like that). In that sense, Dagny is NOT making decisions based on values. But James Taggart is.

Interesting. Good point and catch. I probably missed it because that’s not the definition of “values” strictly speaking.

Re-reading @BizyDad’s posts, that makes sense

 

[StrikingViper69]

Ha, ha. Isn't this essentially THE core question the book raises? I have my thoughts, but can't develop them right now.

I'm not sure if it's THE core question, but it's definitely one of them!

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Yeah, I think it’s best for previous readers to not weigh in on this yet.

Thank you.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Ya’ll.

People!

I. am. reading. Chapter V.

Y’all!!!

Not one of you stopped me. Not ONE.

“Oh Primeperiwinkle! You’re reading one of my favorite books, a book discussion on a PUBLIC FORUM sounds greaaaat”

Smh. You ppl knew. And you let me start.. Smdh.

This freaking book is raw and intense and and I wouldn’t even want to discuss this with my close friends LET ALONE PERFECT STRANGERS! Except! I want to figure it all out!!

Thankfully for my little romantic heart I have read books finer and more lovely that put this one to shame so I know I will be protected from being swept up into book reading delight and carried away by this.. but whew!

How would anyone younger than 35 bear it?!?

How the heck am I gonna sum up Ch 5?!?

Omg I’m just using this post to ramble.. someone bring me hot chocolate.

THANK GOD for my boyfriend. That is all.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Lol... yeah.

I was exasperated at y’all for reading ahead and now? Now I just feel bad for you because who do you guys have to talk to to process this?!??? PLUS I’m going to be able to guess to my hearts content about this ridiculous whirlwind of pride and power and loneliness.. and y’all are stuck drinking a beer.

Js. Not gloating over here too much.. ok I am but.. hahaha..

You poor guys! You must be like desperate to talk about the next chapters! Awww!

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

We're going to all have a few awkward moments together working through the book and Ayn's unique take on... ummm... intimacy(?).View attachment 28574

Rand is a clear mirror reflecting mud. It’s adorable. I got swept up in it for a sec but now I’m seeing the pattern. Finished Ch 6 and Good Ness I wish we could all discuss this book in person! Nuance in these posts is going to be vital.

I would almost pay my orthodox Christian friends to join this convo though so they could help me peel this thing apart. Maybe I can get them to jump in before it’s too late.. hm.

 

[Kruiser]

That's parts of the book I don't get.

Rand's treatment of sex is not random. She doesn't add gratuitous sex.

Her treatment of sex is not marginal to her project, but CORE. And it is messed up.

It betrays a fundamentally inadequate and deeply flawed understanding of the human person.

Which NECESSARILY results in a fundamentally inadequate and deeply flawed understanding of political economy...

Wait...

Am I getting too far ahead of myself?

I'll stop...

For now.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Rand's treatment of sex is not random. She doesn't add gratuitous sex.

Her treatment of sex is not marginal to her project, but CORE. And it is messed up.

It betrays a fundamentally inadequate and deeply flawed understanding of the human person.

Which NECESSARILY results in a fundamentally inadequate and deeply flawed understanding of political economy...

Wait...

Am I getting too far ahead of myself?

I'll stop...

For now.

I sincerely doubt I’ll be able to continue to make any more jokes like this.. but for now I just.. I have to type it..

We’ll all brace ourselves against you and then yell together “don’t stop Kruiser! Don’t you dare stop!”

LMFAO.

 

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[broswoodwork]

@broswoodwork No spoilers.

The next time I read this, I'm out. It's starting to get under my skin to be honest.

I read the book 10-11 years ago, and I was commenting under the discussion leader's remark on the subject matter of the next chapter without revealing a single spoiler.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

You guys think it would be too much if I drew a map of where everybody’s sitting? That’s prolly too much. It’s just I’m tryna imagine where everybody is..

Sorry... I'm just being cranky. Don't mind me.

That's my third hand slap for what I'm viewing as cryptic comments or non-spoilers. A pattern is emerging. I learn more with my mouth shut and my ears open anyways, so I'll just follow along more quietly.

Lol. I’ve been shushing and shaking canes and throwing olives at pretty much everybody in here and it’s only Week 2.

 

[BizyDad]

Now this is interesting. See, the reason I adore this forum is because it’s a BUNCH of entrepreneurs all talking together: giving advice freely and respectfully.

Hmmm.. I know many successful people who are incredibly stressed but I always assume they have friends and family who know how great they are.. because it’s hard for me to imagine them not having that. I see how great they are every time I’m around them. But maybe.. huh. Maybe that’s why they like me, lol, cuz I’m always encouraging them and love on them. I never thought of it that way.. I just know they deserve kindness because the leaders I know are accomplishing so much and have to deal w/ their followers (work, home, church) problems all the time. Huh.

Well. Nobody’s feeling lonely this winter dammit! We’re reading this book and having excellent discussions for the next three months!

Hugs hugs hugs to all of you!

And if nobody’s told you lately you’re awesome! All of you!

It's been said, and it bears repeating.

Thank you for all you are doing to put this together. You are awesome too, fearless leader.

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

It's been said, and it bears repeating.

Thank you for all you are doing to put this together. You are awesome too, fearless leader.

Ehhhh.. *awkward moment* Ok thanks. Lol. I’ll be happiest if everyone is talking to each other and eating the snacks. I’m thankful for the great minds who are helping me think about this book.

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

But Wesley Mouch!?!?! Is REARDEN'S Washington man!?!?!

Yes!! And THATS why Paul Larkin was hinting that Rearden should get a new man!

My audiobook seems to be a horribly condensed version

Oh no. I hate hate hate HATE when book publishers do that!! Gahhh!

Hahaha maybe I'm not as subtle as some people, but I've never made the LEAST effort to keep it a secret what gives me joy.

Same same! I’m a very transparent person.. so the idea of hiding things.. hm. I really don’t know what I hide but certainly Not my joy.

Imagine growing up in a family, or living in a world, that constantly ridiculed the things that make you happy. Maybe you're a photographer and your family is like oh there he goes taking pictures again. Or maybe you're an aspiring railroad executive, but you're a woman! You might hide your greatest source of joy then.

Ohhhh I get it now. Thank you. Shame is not an effective emotional manipulator on me... but I have known a few ppl like this who grew up being shamed for stuff. Try as I might to understand them, they give me an icky feeling. Poor ppl.

 

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