Atlas Shrugged - Week 2: Chapters 3-4

[Bekit]

And ANOTHER thing!

Y’all who are reading this book fast.. I love you guys but.. you’re doing a disservice to yourself. You have an opportunity here to experience something.. and you don’t see it but you’ll miss out by going fast. Truly.

It’s like shoving $500 chocolate down your throat. This book isn’t crappy candy from the dollar store. But whatevs. If I don’t change your mind about Measured Reading with this epic book discussion I’ll just hafta try again next year with another.. Oy.

To all of you who are committed to staying on schedule, I salute you and thank you. Remind me to buy you a drink or give you a hug or otherwise support your endeavors. It wouldn’t be fun without you.

Let me tell you, it is NOT easy restraining myself to stay on pace. Even if it is like gobbling down $500 chocolate like it was Cheerios or something.

I usually read books like a golden retriever eats raw chicken chunks that you drop over its nose: I greedily wolf down the words. Without chewing.


Once I get into a story, I will keep. wolfing. it. down. even to the detriment of sleep and valuable tasks. It's as if this compulsion comes over me and I can't stop turning pages, even when I get to the point where I'm so tired that I'm holding one eye open at a time.

So (A) it is very dangerous for me to allow myself to get into an engaging book, and (B) it's shocking to me that I've been able to convince myself to stay on pace this time.


Nother topic... I'm just gonna leave this here.

Oh and d’Anconio must be the biggest shmuck pos in the world. He made Dagny ugly cry!!! AWFUL man!! I hope somebody kicks him in the balls.

Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?

I just want you ppl to know that every single person who liked this post is CLEARLY in book discussion trouble!!

Do you have that version?

No, my version looks like this:

11 hours 34 minutes.

Versus Audible: 62 hours and 56 minutes. So my version is reduced to a paltry one-sixth of itself.

Upside: I get more of the action and less of the talking and descriptive adjectives.

Downside: I didn't hear about the rats. There was no scene so far where d'Anconia and Dagny even interacted, much less one where he made her cry. The lightning bolt was left out. A lot of stuff y'all are talking about is simply missing.

 

[reedracer]

Was Dagny's decision spur of the moment or action over well informed and intellectual decision? Not in the slightest. She's a 15 year veteran in the railroad industry after growing up in the business. And she has been working on the problem of the Rio Norte line well over a year and had started down the path of Reardon already. As happens in any project, one or more parameters changed and needed a decision and Dagny delivered one base on her amassed experience and knowledge.

Lack of knowledge leads to indecision. When you are a wantrepeneur, you engage in action faking due to not knowing what will happen if you take a decisive step. This is a form of fear or ignorance because you cannot see the outcome.

I

 

[Strategery]

In contrast, James Taggart presents values as reasons for his actions. And yet, he's the one we've labelled as indecisive.

You think he uses values to make decisions ...or emotions?

 

[Kruiser]

@csalvato and @BizyDad

My sense is that you guys are talking past each other because you are using completely different definitions of "values."

@csalvato is using "values" to mean that which a person regards as important (or something roughly like that). Using that definition, Dagny (and everyone else in the world) makes decisions based on values.

@BizyDad is using "values" much more narrowly to mean "supposedly other-centered social niceness" (or something roughly like that). In that sense, Dagny is NOT making decisions based on values. But James Taggart is.

 

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[csalvato]

@BizyDad is using "values" much more narrowly to mean "supposedly other-centered social niceness" (or something roughly like that). In that sense, Dagny is NOT making decisions based on values. But James Taggart is

This also raises a philosophical question: are values moral only if they consider and highly regard other people?

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

Well, if you think about it, Taggart is a well established railroad company Dagny and Jim inherit, the one that looked for value and/or money was dad Taggart, at some point.

Rearden and all the other companies already appear as established, Rearden being the least of them because his steel is an innovation, however I think his reasons to create it in the first place is to make a better steel.

I wouldn't say their drive is money, especially not Dagny's, she wants to see her dad's work prosper since she was a kid (it's mentioned). And with the whole Dog rule thing, I think the only ones with money as a driver are the corrupt people like Jim, Boyle, all the government institutions that just seem to not want anyone to prosper if it doesn't directly benefit them.

This is what’s really all topsy turvy in this book. The ppl who ACTUALLY care about ppl are successful enterprising driven individuals but the book is telling us that the world hates them. Meanwhile the ppl who DONT really care proclaim themselves as “caring for the people”.

So the book is highlighting the plight of successful entrepreneurs who are misunderstood and tired and thirsty for real human interaction where they aren’t condemned.

 

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[csalvato]

Beat them at what? Everything? Is this an absolute?

I can't think of anything where this is not true.

History is rife with examples in every domain, from scientific discovery (Watson & Crick compared to Franklin), manpowered space flight (The Wright Brothers compared to Samuel Pierpont Langley) to space travel (SpaceX/Musk compared to NASA/JPL)....

Micro-examples are all over this forum, as well.

I'd be inclined for you to point out a counter example where the clearly more intelligent person accomplished their goals better than the person with an action bias.

 

[Kruiser]

Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?

I am a few chapters ahead (no spoilers here), but I find him fascinating and confusing. He is a bit of mystery to me right now.

 

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[1step]

Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?

I wasn't going to mention it because I am not sure how things end up for him and didn't want to insult you but now that you say you like him... At the beginning his character was reminding me of you.

I am in chapter 10 now and I am not seeing you as much recently

 

[Kak]

Let me tell you, it is NOT easy restraining myself to stay on pace. Even if it is like gobbling down $500 chocolate like it was Cheerios or something.

I usually read books like a golden retriever eats raw chicken chunks that you drop over its nose: I greedily wolf down the words. Without chewing.


Once I get into a story, I will keep. wolfing. it. down. even to the detriment of sleep and valuable tasks. It's as if this compulsion comes over me and I can't stop turning pages, even when I get to the point where I'm so tired that I'm holding one eye open at a time.

So (A) it is very dangerous for me to allow myself to get into an engaging book, and (B) it's shocking to me that I've been able to convince myself to stay on pace this time.


Nother topic... I'm just gonna leave this here.






No, my version looks like this:
View attachment 28540
11 hours 34 minutes.

Versus Audible: 62 hours and 56 minutes. So my version is reduced to a paltry one-sixth of itself.

Upside: I get more of the action and less of the talking and descriptive adjectives.

Downside: I didn't hear about the rats. There was no scene so far where d'Anconia and Dagny even interacted, much less one where he made her cry. The lightning bolt was left out. A lot of stuff y'all are talking about is simply missing.

Yes. Buy unabridged books if you want the full experience. Buy abridged if you want to get 75% of the experience.

 

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[Kak]

Did you get a plane? Lol. Nice pic dude!

Nah, still renting and goofing off with it like a hobby. That was a Grumman Albatross though a very cool airplane.

 

[Kruiser]

Dagny can see outcomes. That's not an implication; it's in the book.

Dagny correctly predicted the nationalization of the San Sebastian (I'd love to know how she figured that out). She and Dan Conway seemingly accurately predicted the future if she doesn't rebuild the Rio Norte line. She knows it, Dan knows it, Orren Boyle knows it, Hank Reardon knows it.

She's (They're) able to do these things because she knows her industry. I think @reedracer is right.

Dagny CANNOT see outcomes.

Dagny makes reasoned predictions based on what she knows and intuits.

She does not have a crystal ball.

She still must be decisive in the face of the unknown.

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

I think Instagram just passed a type of anti-dog-eat dog rule with the whole “you can’t see likes” on some ppl’s pages.

Why DOES our whole society seem hellbent on demonizing competition? It’s weird.

 

[Bekit]

Do you agree with these?? Why or why not?!?

On the bottom of pg 87

Since my audiobook doesn't have page numbers, what is the context of these two quotes?

My audiobook seems to be a horribly condensed version where I don't remember either of these quotes appearing, so the lack of context may be causing me to misinterpret something... but just on face value, I'll venture my thoughts...

“This, she knew, was a tribute to her, the rarest one person could pay another: the tribute of feeling free to acknowledge one’s own greatness, knowing that it is understood.”

I don't know about this one. Smacks of pride to me. Ego.

I think the proverb applies here, "Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips."

[Edited to add: Now that I've seen the context, it looks like that's exactly what happened. She praised him, and he acknowledged the praise. Don't see anything wrong with that. However, I'm still not sure that's the rarest form of tribute someone could pay to another.]

“If joy is the aim and the core of existence, she thought, and if that which has the power to give one joy is always guarded as one’s deepest secret, then they had seen each other naked in that moment.”

Hahaha maybe I'm not as subtle as some people, but I've never made the LEAST effort to keep it a secret what gives me joy.

From the shallow...
"OH MY GOODNESS THIS CARDAMOM OAT MILK LATTE!!!"
"It's orange! So gorgeous!"

To free-time pleasures...
"Ah! Hiking is so glorious!"
"You've got to read this book/listen to this song/see this video! It's so amazing!"

To deeper, more "core" joys...

I don't feel threatened by letting people knows what gives me joy. I had no idea other people might. Why would this feel threatening to someone?

 

[csalvato]

Since my audiobook doesn't have page numbers, what is the context of these two quotes?

My audiobook seems to be a horribly condensed version where I don't remember either of these quotes appearing, so the lack of context may be causing me to misinterpret something... but just on face value, I'll venture my thoughts...

“This, she knew, was a tribute to her, the rarest one person could pay another: the tribute of feeling free to acknowledge one’s own greatness, knowing that it is understood.” – Source quote: Atlas Shrugged

“If joy is the aim and the core of existence, she thought, and if that which has the power to give one joy is always guarded as one’s deepest secret, then they had seen each other naked in that moment.” – Source quote: Atlas Shrugged

 

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[csalvato]

If joy is the aim and the core of existence, she thought, and if that which has the power to give one joy is always guarded as one’s deepest secret, then they had seen each other naked in that moment.

Reminds me of this Marianne Williamson quote which means so much to so many...

Our deepest fear is not that we are weak. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world ... As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

I also interpret this joy-producing part of ourselves as being an innuendo to our “private” parts

 

[Primeperiwinkle]

Reminds me of this Marianne Williamson quote which means so much to so many...



I also interpret this joy-producing part of ourselves as being an innuendo to our “private” parts

There’s definitely a sexual charge here in the writing but I hadn’t thought of it in that specific of a way. I suppose Rand could be hinting that orgasms are joyful?

I don’t think it’s a healthy connection Rand is making here but I can’t.. hm. Accomplishments give us a boost of pride in ourselves. The moment Dagny and Hank share here seems like it would be an unselfish one since there’s trust but then Hank likens it to selfishness.. materialism.

Sex could be seen as both though I suppose, the fierce (selfish but not horrible) joy of triumph OR the pure unselfish joy of sharing and relaxing while being who you are...

Either way my mind keeps rolling around this phrase..

the tribute of feeling free to acknowledge one’s own greatness, knowing that it is understood.

I think the greater tribute to a friend is acknowledging one’s own weakness or vulnerability or pain. I don’t think I give that type of tribute to many, if any.

This section is powerful. What someone doesn’t share often tells you more about their character than what they will or at the very least it might just tell you what they don’t worry about? I don’t know.

These two characters are brilliant and fierce but, by all intents and purposes, Hank and Dagny are horribly alone in the world. I wouldn’t want to be like them.

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

I have more stuff to talk about and I’ve had my coffee..

I really want to talk about the Commandment of Control.

It’s sooo easy to demonize James Taggart because he’s such a sniveling weak rat type of person but Dagny is about to make the same damn mistake!!

Taggart broke this commandment when trusted Orren Boyle for rail and invested so heavily in d’Anconio for profits. He put the welfare of the entire company in those peoples hands.

Now Dagny is resting her ENTIRE company in Reardens hands?!?!

According to Eddie, who I think we can trust even though he’s apparently pouring his heart out to a guy (I THINK ITS THE SAME BRAKEMAN who was humming the fifth concerto!!! I’m weirdly obsessed with minor characters like the newspaper seller and the bartender..but I digress) he barely knows.. the company is doing really really badly.

I’m genuinely curious to compare this type of situation to a modern day equivalent. Who here would bet the fate of their entire company on an untried substance??

Rearden’s “yes” is glorious. He is quite literally being Dagny’s salvation. #swoon

BUT IS SHE BEING SMART?!?

 

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[BellaPippin]

I have to say I often relate so much to the almost depressed way about both Dagny and Hank.

And that, kids, is why I joined The Fastlane Forum.


...Also I'm still just lurking because I'm waiting for you guys to catch up to part two which is where I had left it. All these questions I already got some of the answers to and I don't want to spoil.

 

[MTEE1985]

To be fair, James Taggart destroyed a competitor decisively. He also built a railroad

My understanding at this stage of the book was that he inherited it and were his last name not Taggart he likely would have accomplished very little.

Intelligence without action is nothing more than masturbation, imo.

Someone who is a 0/10 in either intelligence or action will always be screwed.

Someone who is a 5/10 on intelligence and a 10/10 on action will beat the person who is 10/10 on intelligence and 5/10 on action...every single day of the week.

Someone who is intelligent and decisive (like Francisco or Dagny), who is a 10/10 on both is an unstoppable force. Real life examples of this include Bezos, Musk and Gates.

This is put much better than my mis-mash.

 

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[lludwig]

Or we could discuss the politics of Orren Boyle! Yay! Book discussion!

Yea, unfortunately, it's one and the same ;-)

Getting back to Boyle , I always think of Barney Frank the former senator in appearance and presentation.

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

Who else likes Fransisco D'anconia?

I just want you ppl to know that every single person who liked this post is CLEARLY in book discussion trouble!!

Y’all cannot possibly like him unless you’ve already read ahead!

*pulls heavy table away from cute living room set up
*mumbles “book discussion cheaters don’t deserve snacks at all!!!”
*puts crappy old snacks on table (just the veggie plate!!!)

Everybody who “likes” d’ Anconio can just sit over here and talk amongst yourselves!

Humph. Now I’m gonna type out my response to csalvato and read the next two chapters..like a GOOD participant!!

*takes the chocolate brownies

 

[csalvato]

Lack of knowledge leads to indecision. When you are a wantrepeneur, you engage in action faking due to not knowing what will happen if you take a decisive step. This is a form of fear or ignorance because you cannot see the outcome.

This implies that someone like Dagny can see the outcome.

Indecisiveness causes indecision, not lack of knowledge imo.

And indecisiveness is caused by thinking you need to know the outcome, which is all but impossible when considering common business and life decisions where the outcome is always unknown.

Imo indecision comes from not knowing your values, because in times where you can’t predict the outcome, you will make the decision that is consistent with your values and beliefs.

Dagny knows her values. Yes, she also knows her industry... I think that’s secondary.

 

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[BizyDad]

Dagny CANNOT see outcomes.

Dagny makes reasoned predictions based on what she knows and intuits.

She does not have a crystal ball.

She still must be decisive in the face of the unknown.

Yes exactly. And she's able to be decisive based on what she knows and intuits. It's not values.

The future is not entirely unknowable either, as seemed to be stated.

Look, I know we'll have another recession. Don't need a crystal ball to see that. I know it'll hit Phoenix harder than the rest of the country.

I'm diversifying my client portfolio as a result to include clients from elsewhere as well as different industries. This will lead to certain inefficiencies, hence I avoided it until now.

I know this because I've lived long enough to see recession come and go and what it is like in my home town. My business has survived one, we'll survive the next. This time, we may even thrive, as I expect my higher priced and less prepared competition to quit, as happened last time. (Woah, another prediction) Plus I've got other ideas and am preparing my team to take advantage of a down turn.

Forget gumballs and crystal balls, this is normal business common sense, isn't it? And if it isn't, shouldn't it be? Back to Dagny.

So I am not saying she is a prophet or soothsayer. I agree she uses reason, intuition, and I'll add experience and research to make her predictions of outcomes.

So far she acts on those predictions first and foremost. She's a total planner.

She knew her brother's arguments about switching steel suppliers too. "I know everything you’re going to say." And she was right. She knows her brother well.

When something unpredictable happened, and her brother was gloating, she instantly realized she didn't have enough time to build the railroad. So her first action was to try and convince her competitor to fight it, essentially to buy herself more time.

When she failed at that, she went to Reardon. It cost her more. Remember she had an alternate plan for if Reardon couldn't deliver steel too.

Her brain is "constantly making calculations".

This is all in the book guys. This is the step by step calculations of a savvy operator. She operated on cause and effect, not on values.

So I think she is able to adjust on the fly, not because she values action, but because she has industry knowledge and forethought. She knows the players and the game.

And she speaks to others as if they have this ability too. And several people in the book seem to.

Anyways, that's my too lengthy thoughts on how Dagny makes her decisions.

At the end of the day, it is a book discussion, and I didn't agree with some stuff that was said based on the book. But maybe y'all read ahead and know stuff that I don't, so if that's the case then thank you for not "spoilering".

You think he uses values to make decisions ...or emotions?

He has made decisions based on friendship and loyalty. Also for the good of the Mexican people. I call those values. I understand if you call them emotions. He has definitely made other decisions purely on emotion.

The only other person I think is a "value based decider" is Eddie, who doesn't understand why people don't just do the right thing, but he hasn't really made decisions worth discussing so I brought up James as a more interesting example.

 

[lludwig]

I read the Bernie Sanders discussion earlier in this thread. Anyone else feel like part of the mainstream narrative is about punishing the rich and successful?

That's because it is. It's about how you (the rich) must sacrifice to help the poor. You must be altruistic to help the "greater good" (whatever that means).

The "greater good" is an amorphous term that can mean anything you want. What you might think of the "greater good" might be something different to someone else.

Ironically Bernie rails on the "1%" in the USA. But if he were to look globally he himself is in the 1% of all wealth. This relativism is how they stake claims against others production.

 

[broswoodwork]

I was exasperated at y’all for reading ahead and now? Now I just feel bad for you because who do you guys have to talk to to process this?!??? PLUS I’m going to be able to guess to my hearts content about this ridiculous whirlwind of pride and power and loneliness.. and y’all are stuck drinking a beer.

Js. Not gloating over here too much.. ok

We're going to all have a few awkward moments together working through the book and Ayn's unique take on... ummm... intimacy(?).

 

[BizyDad]

First off, thank you everyone for being so civil, and interesting, and actually having a discussion and not a pissing match. I've been on forums where I challenge someone and things devolve. I'm new, so I didn't know what to expect here. I'm thrilled that wasn't the case. Thrilled.

@csalvato and @BizyDad

My sense is that you guys are talking past each other because you are using completely different definitions of "values."

@csalvato is using "values" to mean that which a person regards as important (or something roughly like that). Using that definition, Dagny (and everyone else in the world) makes decisions based on values.

@BizyDad is using "values" much more narrowly to mean "supposedly other-centered social niceness" (or something roughly like that). In that sense, Dagny is NOT making decisions based on values. But James Taggart is.

I mean values are principles people hold dear. I believe you have a point, but I think our definitions are much closer than what was written above.

Let me take one more stab at this.

To me, there are goal oriented people, value driven people, and others (of which there are several kinds, like emotion driven or the unmotived, etc.).

I believe we all potentially have some of each in us, and we have a primary mode. When I label a character, I am referring to their primary mode; just because someone is "value driven" doesn't mean they never act out of emotion, for example. I'll probably change my mind about James... or anybody really.

To me, Dagny is a planner trying to accomplish a goal. Someone like her might preach "begin with the end in mind".

Others are primarily value driven. They might preach, "do the right things and the money will follow".

I agree Dagny has values. I agree she won't betray them. And she certainly isn't an "ends justifies the means" type of woman although those people are also goal oriented.

I just think, for her, values, aka principles, are secondary and inform her goals, but the primary driver of her decisions is accomplishing a desired goal... save Taggart Transcontinental.

I think the step by step I mentioned bears that out, as she chose the steps in order of least costly (convince Dan to fight and buy time) to most costly (rip up the rails) in an effort to save TT.

Which, under the proposed definition above and even in the screen shot definition, this might be considered a value, (the value of profitability?) I suppose, but I label it a goal.

I predict if she fails at this goal, she will be crushed, whereas a values driven person will hold their head high knowing they did their best.

Lastly, I think generally people are irrational, and values based people tend to not be irrational (hence why I am probably wrong about James, but I don't have a more interesting example), regardless I don't think it's possible for everyone to be "values driven".

I think values driven people are rare and special.

I think @csalvato and I probably have slightly different definitions, mine probably is narrower, and we have two different worldviews. And that's ok. I accused him of imprinting his on these characters, I clearly am doing the same.

Anyways, ain't semantics a b*&^! If we take this too far, it'll turn into a chicken and egg convo (which comes first, the goal or the value), and I can understand the other side, so agree to disagree, I think.

This also raises a philosophical question: are values moral only if they consider and highly regard other people?

No. Self-preservation is moral and individual, as just one example.

I don't believe I am begging the question, so if you can highlight how I've done that I would be interested.

I love when I'm caught in a logical fallacy, since that's when I improve.

Maybe this is better off this thread, but interested if others want to weigh in. Honestly, I'm not sure you were. I've been mulling it over and changing my mind.

The TLDR version, a definition of tautology is saying the same thing twice in different ways, and since something logically can't be the literal cause of itself, deduction... begging the question.

Even if it isn't begging the question, I still don't agree (Logically one cannot be both decisive and indecisive. If indecisiveness is the cause of indecision, and an indecisive person can make decisions, conclusion at a minimum, there must be other causes for decisions besides the character trait of decisiveness. And it kind of falls apart from there...) Again, any further chat is probably best private if it isn't a book thing.

@broswoodwork No spoilers. @Primeperiwinkle's walking a fine line there...

@all THANK YOU FOR BEING AWESOME! I haven't had a book discussion like this since college some 20 yrs ago, if ever. Now I'm going to sit over here at the slow reader table, have my , and eat it too. Nom Nom Nom.

 

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[gryfny]

I love reading the book and this thread. Thanks for setting this up.
I actually started the book last year but didn't finish. I did think the characters are too extreme, too archetypical. But now with reading your views and insights along with the book I do find it more enjoyable.

What I do notice, when comparing the entrepreneurs in the book to the fast lane mindset, is that the entrepreneurs don't seem to care about creating value first, but really focus on money as their main driver.

For the next chapters I'll try to take more notes so I can contribute more to the discussion.

 

[broswoodwork]

really focus on money as their main driver.

What is money representative of in the fastlane philosophy? There may or may not be a dialog by one or more (or less) characters that paints a particular image, or doesn't, of the representative value of money at some point, or never, that lines up very well with MJ's thoughts, or perhaps lines up in opposition, given this is a book about life/ money and production, or maybe it's about something completely different, and none of this is addressed in a 1200 page heroic epic about capitalist titans.

Spoiler

if anyone says the S******-word I will declare war on the universe

 

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[Primeperiwinkle]

Hence, the creation of the fastlaneforum.com, where all the successful but lonely entrepreneurs can quench their thirst for real human interaction where they aren't condemned.

Now this is interesting. See, the reason I adore this forum is because it’s a BUNCH of entrepreneurs all talking together: giving advice freely and respectfully.

Hmmm.. I know many successful people who are incredibly stressed but I always assume they have friends and family who know how great they are.. because it’s hard for me to imagine them not having that. I see how great they are every time I’m around them. But maybe.. huh. Maybe that’s why they like me, lol, cuz I’m always encouraging them and love on them. I never thought of it that way.. I just know they deserve kindness because the leaders I know are accomplishing so much and have to deal w/ their followers (work, home, church) problems all the time. Huh.

Well. Nobody’s feeling lonely this winter dammit! We’re reading this book and having excellent discussions for the next three months!

Hugs hugs hugs to all of you!

And if nobody’s told you lately you’re awesome! All of you!