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WEB/DIGITAL ARTICLE 13: What the Actual Hell Europe?

ApparentHorizon

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TL;DR:
- It hasn't gone into effect yet, and still needs additional approval, but the initial vote passed
- Algorithms determine if your uploaded content is copyrighted (images, quotes, code) (think YT content ID)
- If you own an online community in the EU, you're responsible for your member's content. (Similar to how a company in the US is responsible for their employees' action)
- Vague language

Anyone have some insights into this beside the propaganda spread online?
 

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TL;DR:
- It hasn't gone into effect yet, and still needs additional approval, but the initial vote passed
- Algorithms determine if your uploaded content is copyrighted (images, quotes, code) (think YT content ID)
- If you own an online community in the EU, you're responsible for your member's content. (Similar to how a company in the US is responsible for their employees' action)
- Vague language

Anyone have some insights into this beside the propaganda spread online?
FFS. Especially with the GDPR I’m just going to block all traffic from any European country. It’s not worth the headache. We don’t event sell in Europe.

Get it together EU!
 

ShellShock

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As a fellow european, i must confirm that they may have exaggerated regarding this sort of stuff. While the GDPR, at its core it's designed to protect consumer data, measure prompted by the Cambridge Analytica scandal (if i am not mistaken) , it is notably exaggerated. Businesses had (and still have) to suffer, while in some cases the efficiency of GDPR is questionable.
 

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In other news, apparently talking about Europe triggers Russian mail order bride ads on the forum..

6D3A18B5-144B-4712-8E2E-3B36F2D4A957.jpeg
 

c4n

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  1. I tried reading articles 11 and 13. I don't understand them. When legislation is vague and not clear, it's usually a bad sign.

  2. It's a directive, not a regulation. This means we'll have 28 different country-specific laws/implementation. Hooray.

  3. If anyone else wants to give it a go, here's the proposed copyright directive: EUR-Lex - 52016PC0593 - EN - EUR-Lex
 

Cruze

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I live in the EU (Germany) and it´s really very sad. We arent a technology place. Our politicans love bureaucracy and really everything will be done agains the "big companys" like fb, google, amazon. But in the end it hit the little companys, who cant implement the rules...

This law is a biiiig step back in the past, not the future.
 

kelvinfernandezm

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Europeans have always been ruled by their Kings, this is nothing new to them. All they'll do is lowered their heads and hope for the best.
 

GSF

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Europeans have always been ruled by their Kings, this is nothing new to them. All they'll do is lowered their heads and hope for the best.
I haven't read to much about this, but I'm guessing it's moving towards a regulated, policed and taxed internet, which results in confusion, fear of free speech, and stifled innovation.
 

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Supa

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I live in the EU (Germany) and it´s really very sad. We arent a technology place. Our politicans love bureaucracy and really everything will be done agains the "big companys" like fb, google, amazon. But in the end it hit the little companys, who cant implement the rules...

This law is a biiiig step back in the past, not the future.
How I understand it, it‘s not mentioned that it‘s done against big companies. They are basically the ones able to afford the changes it would require.
 

c4n

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How I understand it, it‘s not mentioned that it‘s done against big companies. They are basically the ones able to afford the changes it would require.
Article 13 says
... providers that store and provide to the public access to large amounts of works or other subject-matter uploaded by their users...
Who knows what large amounts actually means and how it will be implemented in 28 different laws.
 
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ApparentHorizon

ApparentHorizon

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As a fellow european, i must confirm that they may have exaggerated regarding this sort of stuff. While the GDPR, at its core it's designed to protect consumer data, measure prompted by the Cambridge Analytica scandal (if i am not mistaken) , it is notably exaggerated. Businesses had (and still have) to suffer, while in some cases the efficiency of GDPR is questionable.
  1. I tried reading articles 11 and 13. I don't understand them. When legislation is vague and not clear, it's usually a bad sign.

  2. It's a directive, not a regulation. This means we'll have 28 different country-specific laws/implementation. Hooray.

  3. If anyone else wants to give it a go, here's the proposed copyright directive: EUR-Lex - 52016PC0593 - EN - EUR-Lex
I haven't read to much about this, but I'm guessing it's moving towards a regulated, policed and taxed internet, which results in confusion, fear of free speech, and stifled innovation.
How have they approached vague enforcements like these in the past?

Do you think they'd actually fine you for ripping a paragraph quote from a book and blogging about it? Or is this more about information flow?
 

c4n

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I haven't read the the whole proposal, but in the "explanatory memorandum" > "Reasons for and objectives of the proposal" the last paragraph shows what it's all about: press is having a hard time monetizing online articles and they somehow convinced the EU commission that Internet is to blame and that EU should help them get paid more.

Saying if you post a quote and blog about it will get fined is (hopefully) an exaggeration. Article 13 seems to be aimed at larger companies when it mentions providers that store and provide to the public access to large amounts of works or other subject-matter uploaded by their users.
 

AlessioLC

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It's a big mess, even if it's to secure the consumer data & security, they've done "too much".
 

Supa

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Europeans have always been ruled by their Kings, this is nothing new to them. All they'll do is lowered their heads and hope for the best.
Uhm... you are aware of the fact, that "Europeans" are not of one single nationality and country, right? Europe's countries can't be compared to the states in the US, where they may all be somehow different, but still belong to one big country. Everyone is different, has it's different laws, ways of life, beaurocracy and pretty much everything else.

Also, pretty much everyone still living today in most european countries never lived under a king...

There are petitions doing their rounds to cancel this article before it will happen (btw, not the first time something like that happened and was canceled... like with Acta back then). But yeah, what else could "Europeans" do to change such a political decision? I mean, it's not like the people on other continents could do a lot about it...

How have they approached vague enforcements like these in the past?

Do you think they'd actually fine you for ripping a paragraph quote from a book and blogging about it? Or is this more about information flow?
That's a good question.

Can't remember there being something like this before. I mean, copyright is nothing new, like you can't just use images from Google on your blog post without the possibility of getting into trouble with the image's right's holder.

What I understood about that article is, that companies need to put an Upload-filter on their sites, that checks stuff posted to their sites for copyrighted material, already during the uploading process.
YouTube already has something like this, and Facebook, too.

What I read that people fear, is that because only big companies like Google, FB, etc. will probably be able to build such a filter, they'll be able to sell those filters to smaller businesses (kinda like an Saas I think) and therefore profit from this. The other thing is that is feared, is that the availability of information on the internet could be reduced through it.
 

ShellShock

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How have they approached vague enforcements like these in the past?

Do you think they'd actually fine you for ripping a paragraph quote from a book and blogging about it? Or is this more about information flow?
I think it refers to the info flow. IMHO, it would be pretty hard and stupid to keep tabs of some memes (yes, they are debating whether to ban memes for copyright infringement or not) and every quote from some book. Bureaucracy strikes again.
 

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Is this something to do with the Facebook case???

I myself am getting all kinds of policy changes notifications from all the online channels I subscribe to. I don't understand it all one bit....
 

Galaxy16

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Anyone have some insights into this beside the propaganda spread online?
Yes, I do.

This law sounded unrealistic first, as unrealistic as the Trump wall, but apparently, they are dead-serious.

There was also a german petition on change.org, but I will not hotlink it here, because this forum is originally not for politics. But I agree, Article 13 is no good idea.
 

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Galaxy16

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FFS. Especially with the GDPR I’m just going to block all traffic from any European country. It’s not worth the headache. We don’t event sell in Europe.

Get it together EU!
80/20 rule.
Better concentrate on the 20 %, and ditch the lower headache. :)
 

Galaxy16

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Article 13 seems to be aimed at larger companies when it mentions providers that store and provide to the public access to large amounts of works or other subject-matter uploaded by their users.
It will mainly affect the right to quote and also uploading funny memes and sampled arts will get impossible.
 

c4n

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It will mainly affect the right to quote and also uploading funny memes and sampled arts will get impossible.
The real answer is: we don't know. It will be up to how each individual country implements the directive in their national law.

Unlike regulations (which are binding legislative acts), directives set goals that members must achieve and it is up to the individual countries to devise their own laws.
 

ShellShock

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Is this something to do with the Facebook case???

I myself am getting all kinds of policy changes notifications from all the online channels I subscribe to. I don't understand it all one bit....
While not strictly related with the FB case, from my understanding it has been a notable catalyst regarding the integration of this law.
 
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ApparentHorizon

ApparentHorizon

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That's a good question.

Can't remember there being something like this before. I mean, copyright is nothing new, like you can't just use images from Google on your blog post without the possibility of getting into trouble with the image's right's holder.

What I understood about that article is, that companies need to put an Upload-filter on their sites, that checks stuff posted to their sites for copyrighted material, already during the uploading process.
YouTube already has something like this, and Facebook, too.

What I read that people fear, is that because only big companies like Google, FB, etc. will probably be able to build such a filter, they'll be able to sell those filters to smaller businesses (kinda like an Saas I think) and therefore profit from this. The other thing is that is feared, is that the availability of information on the internet could be reduced through it.
Selling something like that wouldn't put a dent in their bottom line.

But you bring up a good point. If you get rid of a bunch of smaller websites, siphoning off a couple of bucks here and there, you force everyone to get the news from your platform. Then you partner with the news agencies to control the flow of information.

The real answer is: we don't know. It will be up to how each individual country implements the directive in their national law.

Unlike regulations (which are binding legislative acts), directives set goals that members must achieve and it is up to the individual countries to devise their own laws.
From what I'm reading, directives still have to have cross border applications. So it's not going to vary significantly.

Yes, I do.

This law sounded unrealistic first, as unrealistic as the Trump wall, but apparently, they are dead-serious.

There was also a german petition on change.org, but I will not hotlink it here, because this forum is originally not for politics. But I agree, Article 13 is no good idea.
You can look at it from the other side of the coin as well. Higher barriers to entry. More protections if you create original works.

I hope I'm reading these right...a couple of notable points:
- The filter applies to future uploads, so you don't have to go back and scrub your old dirty laundry
- In addition to the upload filter, you'll also need takedown processing. If someone uploads something out of your control, and games the filter, you'll allow the owner to submit a takedown request.
- When you upload something, you'll need direct approval from the copyrights holder, including paying them a fee.

So on paper it looks ok, besides the increase in overhead, which could be offset by the reduced competition.
 

ShellShock

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In the end , the GDPR might do more harm than good , at least to entrepreneurs, business owners and the likes.
 

Roli

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TL;DR:
- It hasn't gone into effect yet, and still needs additional approval, but the initial vote passed
- Algorithms determine if your uploaded content is copyrighted (images, quotes, code) (think YT content ID)
- If you own an online community in the EU, you're responsible for your member's content. (Similar to how a company in the US is responsible for their employees' action)
- Vague language

Anyone have some insights into this beside the propaganda spread online?
Wow, a lot of anti-European sentiment here...

I can condense it down and (heavily) simplify it, essentially the whole meat of the proposal (which has been around since 2015) is summed up in the first paragraph.

They are trying to modernise European copyright law to keep up with modern changes.

So for instance, Mr X writes a story online on a website and Mrs Y decides to copy and paste story and make it into a book. Old copyright laws say this is fine, new laws say no it is not.

That's the gist of it, it is to protect intellectual property in a way that old laws simply didn't.

Clearly there's more to it, but hey, I'm not a lawyer and don't have unlimited time so cannot detail it out point by point. But like most Euro consumer laws, they are there to protect the consumer.

I'm not saying they are amazing, but in this case I believe it's a step in the right direction.

I believe the following extracts sum it up nicely.

Extract 1
The evolution of digital technologies has changed the way works and other protected subjectmatter are created, produced, distributed and exploited. New uses have emerged as well as new actors and new business models. In the digital environment, cross-border uses have also intensified and new opportunities for consumers to access copyright-protected content have materialised.

Even though the objectives and principles laid down by the EU copyright framework remain sound, there is a need to adapt it to these new realities. Intervention at EU level is also needed to avoid fragmentation in the internal market. Against this background, the Digital Single Market Strategy1 adopted in May 2015 identified the need “to reduce the differences between national copyright regimes and allow for wider online access to works by users across the EU”. This Communication highlighted the importance to enhance crossborder access to copyright-protected content services[...]

Extract 2 (bold emphasis added)
The Commission carried out a review of the existing copyright rules between 2013 and 2016 with the objective to “ensure that copyright and copyright-related practices stay fit for purpose in the new digital context”15. Even if it started before the adoption of the Commission's Better Regulation Agenda in May 201516, this review process was carried out in the spirit of the Better Regulation guidelines.

The review process highlighted, in particular, problems with the implementation of certain exceptions and their lack of cross-border effect and pointed out to difficulties in the use of copyright-protected content, notably in the digital and cross-border context that have emerged in recent years.

___

It goes onto say that stakeholders (producers of digital content) were consulted as to how they felt current copyright laws protected them and how they could be improved.

So at the end of the day, if this forum was copied word for word and put out as something else, @MJ DeMarco would be able to sue the person who did that and win. Whereas current laws are too vague and would not protect him.

I personally think that's a good idea, happy to hear why others think it isn't though.

Addendum: This also refers to use of educational material, and the ease of which it can be shared and legalities surrounding said content (in light of cases in the US involving MIT and other educational sources).
 

ShellShock

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While @Roli makes a valid point, there are, of course some cons.
For example , additional red tape policies may hamper efficiency of the service/ product in question and maybe even the enjoyment of the product by customers.
After i looked further into this issue, several sources stated the fact that, depending on the size of the company's database (or something like that) there may be the need to employ a Data Protection Officer.Added costs and bureaucracy, again.
In time, the impact the GDPR has will become more apparent.
 
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ApparentHorizon

ApparentHorizon

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Wow, a lot of anti-European sentiment here...

I can condense it down and (heavily) simplify it, essentially the whole meat of the proposal (which has been around since 2015) is summed up in the first paragraph.

They are trying to modernise European copyright law to keep up with modern changes.

So for instance, Mr X writes a story online on a website and Mrs Y decides to copy and paste story and make it into a book. Old copyright laws say this is fine, new laws say no it is not.

That's the gist of it, it is to protect intellectual property in a way that old laws simply didn't.

Clearly there's more to it, but hey, I'm not a lawyer and don't have unlimited time so cannot detail it out point by point. But like most Euro consumer laws, they are there to protect the consumer.

I'm not saying they are amazing, but in this case I believe it's a step in the right direction.

I believe the following extracts sum it up nicely.

Extract 1
The evolution of digital technologies has changed the way works and other protected subjectmatter are created, produced, distributed and exploited. New uses have emerged as well as new actors and new business models. In the digital environment, cross-border uses have also intensified and new opportunities for consumers to access copyright-protected content have materialised.

Even though the objectives and principles laid down by the EU copyright framework remain sound, there is a need to adapt it to these new realities. Intervention at EU level is also needed to avoid fragmentation in the internal market. Against this background, the Digital Single Market Strategy1 adopted in May 2015 identified the need “to reduce the differences between national copyright regimes and allow for wider online access to works by users across the EU”. This Communication highlighted the importance to enhance crossborder access to copyright-protected content services[...]

Extract 2 (bold emphasis added)
The Commission carried out a review of the existing copyright rules between 2013 and 2016 with the objective to “ensure that copyright and copyright-related practices stay fit for purpose in the new digital context”15. Even if it started before the adoption of the Commission's Better Regulation Agenda in May 201516, this review process was carried out in the spirit of the Better Regulation guidelines.

The review process highlighted, in particular, problems with the implementation of certain exceptions and their lack of cross-border effect and pointed out to difficulties in the use of copyright-protected content, notably in the digital and cross-border context that have emerged in recent years.

___

It goes onto say that stakeholders (producers of digital content) were consulted as to how they felt current copyright laws protected them and how they could be improved.

So at the end of the day, if this forum was copied word for word and put out as something else, @MJ DeMarco would be able to sue the person who did that and win. Whereas current laws are too vague and would not protect him.

I personally think that's a good idea, happy to hear why others think it isn't though.

Addendum: This also refers to use of educational material, and the ease of which it can be shared and legalities surrounding said content (in light of cases in the US involving MIT and other educational sources).
This is a great exposition and makes a lot more sense.

What a lot of people don't know, is that in the US, you can already take action against websites using your content. The best example is businesses that use photographer's images, for profit, without their permissions.

However, this also brings into question fair-use/fair-dealings.

Around that same time, 2015, the UK/EU was looking at bringing it closer to US's standards. I don't see anything relating to the matter in the proposal.
 

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