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AndyTalks with @Tweeve11 about generating web design leads and business learnings

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Andy Black

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AndyTalks with @Tweeve11 about generating web design leads and business learnings

@Tweeve11 recently created a marketplace ad to generate leads for web developers and digital marketers:
I thought this was interesting and scheduled a chat with him.

We figured we'd shoot the breeze for the benefit of fellow forum members, and then have a private chat about how we could create a win-win for each other.

I enjoyed chatting to @Tweeve11... he's definitely going places and there's a lot of good stuff in here for people who want to do sales, and for those web designers who are stuck as technicians.


Some show-notes (these are from memory... I'll add to them as I remember):
  • We're not sure that we should "always be closing".
  • Beware people who say what you "should" do.
  • The fun's in the squiggly bits on the map.
  • Problems are just stepping stones.


> Click here to access the recording <

What were your takeaways?

What will you do differently going forward?


(For other recordings click HERE.)

 

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Andy Black

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Thanks so much for having me on Andy. It's definitely a privilege to be featured on an AndyTalks!

I hope everyone enjoys listening to this as much as I enjoyed recording it :cool:
I must come up with a better name than AndyTalks...

What were your main takeaways or insights (even from the confidential part of the call we didn't publish)?
 

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I must come up with a better name than AndyTalks...

What were your main takeaways or insights (even from the confidential part of the call we didn't publish)?
I actually really like the name AndyTalks... I think I have said this once before, but its genuine and original (as well as fairly accurate lol).

I would say that my main takeaway is that I am realizing how fast problems within a business can come and go. Something that can seem insurmountable for months can be achieved and surpassed greatly in the matter of a day or two IF you have been putting in enough of the right work to solve your problem.

For some reason, it's very easy for humans to diagnose something as "wrong" or "incorrect" simply because we didn't see an instant result. I used the gym as an example in the call. You aren't going to see abs on the 3rd day, or the 3rd week, or sometimes even on the 3rd month, but that doesn't mean what you're doing in the gym is necessarily wrong, you just may be someone who takes 4 months to get abs instead of 3.

Sometimes we have to just be patient, and realize that we very well may be in month 3 of the 4 month process. Being able to recognize this as it is happening, is something I'm still working to master, but it does feel good to be making good progress!
 

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What were your takeaways?

What will you do differently going forward?
Great call, lots of positive energy.

My biggest takeaway, even though it maybe wasn't explicitly said - is the power of process. Of continuously going at it, modifying your approach as you go, based on feedback - and sooner rather than later, you just can't not score a win. And then another, and another.

Going forward, I won't be intimidated by stuff I may not be master of, but rather - I'll keep chipping away until I do become really good and start winning. And then I'll keep improving and winning.

There are many other valuable views and lessons in the call, I recommend it.
 

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HVAC guys "We're getting bigger ticket items from online."

When I was doing SEO back in 2013 the same reactions were coming out of clients.

One attorney once told me, "ApparentHorizon, since you started us on this campaign, we've had less people calling in asking who they can sue, when they step in the fire ant hill in their back yard. And more of people needing actual legal representation."

Or a flower boutique's customer, "My mistress and I had a fight, and wanted to send her flowers to say I'm sorry. Idk what corner she works, but if you could leave the bouquet somewhere between (sketchy street name) and 4th beside a large sign with her name on it..."

You might be onto something with taking these "classic" businesses and bringing them online.
 

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Awesome talk thanks for posting! My biggest takeaway was about when you were talking how you double down when someone asks you why you did something different. For me, this is when I started a business instead of going to college. I've learned more about myself in the past 4 years than if I conformed to everyone else and went to college. I am seeing a bunch of my friend who graduated recently, they keep telling me how there this much tens of thousands of debt. There still not sure what they want to do but they have to get a job. My lifestyle may not have lead to riches yet. But every day I feel wealthy and healthy because I doubled down on what I believed.

Thanks again for this great post!
 

Nicoknowsbest

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Excellent call @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!

I again learned many things I'd do differently going forward - thank you guys for letting me learn with you.

Some important insights for me were:
  • @Tweeve11 brought up an interesting point about the overall industry. The last couple of years have seen a rise for nearly anonymous platforms such as UpWork etc. People seemed to look for a quick solution for their problems, without necessarily talking to a real person on the phone, for a limited budget. It seems that it's shifting again to people looking to find the right fit and learn a bit more about the face and person behind the service. It also seems as if people are willing to spend more for better quality again.
  • @Andy Black mentions that we should pay attention to things that seem normal to us, but others might find weird. You should look out for things that come naturally to you and then double down on them. Only because you are different doesn't mean it's wrong. Never conform!
  • When giving feedback, every word counts. Rather than advising people what to do by telling them "Do this... do that...", we should give advice more from a perspective of a wise grandfather talking to his grandchildren. Start sentences with "Have you considered...", "This might help..." etc.
  • Loved the point about the lottery by @Tweeve11 - I fully agree: winning the lottery feels like cheating for people like us. It's a shortcut we don't want to take. Because on the way to the promised land, there are no shortcuts.
  • It's about the journey, not the goal. You can make plans all you want, but they are worthless the second you start executing, because you can never predict all the variables. Get comfortable with the idea of your journey to the fastlane being more like Columbus sailing off to discover new things.
  • If you are solving the same problems over and over again, it means you are not progressing. New problems mean new challenges, while you are progressing. Consider changing problems as a confirmation of being on the right path. They are hurdles towards the finish line, not walls you cannot climb. See them as stepping stones on the way of crossing the river until you are on the other side.
  • Very good point about patience by @Tweeve11 - only because you don't have abs after a 90 day fitness plan, doesn't mean what you have been doing was wrong. The grind happens when nobody is watching and seeing the results might take a while.
  • Do manual work until you get bored of it, then optimize your processes and scale them up.
  • Very emotional justification of @Andy Black's change of work back in the days. It just is wonderful if people tell you "Thank god for Andy", compared to dealing with databases. Great story about how to make an impact on peoples lives - on the lives of real people, with real families who need food on the table.
  • Great point by @Tweeve11 on the rise of social media management as a service. Many business owners seem to be skeptical, but wouldn't want to miss out on the trend. What if we could provide them with real results to make them comfortably investing more money into social media?
  • Interesting insight by @Andy Black into why he doesn't do paid Facebook traffic. He'd rather be a 10 out of 10 guy for one skill, than a 9 out of 10 for two skills. AdWords seem to work better for services where Facebook doesn't work as well. Who wants to post about looking for a "divorce lawyer" on Facebook?

A ton of great input and excellent lessons learned.

Thank you @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!
 

AlessioLC

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At one point you said that back then it was tougher to create something on the internet or to sell on internet and find something...but i really think even if it was tougher (didn't have all the all-in-one service website creation), you had more chance to succeed.
I mean like in my activity : Coffee, right now if i want to open an online marketplace for coffee/tea and stuff, there is already 2 big business which occupies the entire french market.
In 2005 if i were 20yo as i am right now, i would have done it more easily like they did.

BUT, if you got the big idea that everyone is searching for or if you're smart enough to create a need, this is the greatest era.
 

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Excellent call @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!

I again learned many things I'd do differently going forward - thank you guys for letting me learn with you.

Some important insights for me were:
  • @Tweeve11 brought up an interesting point about the overall industry. The last couple of years have seen a rise for nearly anonymous platforms such as UpWork etc. People seemed to look for a quick solution for their problems, without necessarily talking to a real person on the phone, for a limited budget. It seems that it's shifting again to people looking to find the right fit and learn a bit more about the face and person behind the service. It also seems as if people are willing to spend more for better quality again.
  • @Andy Black mentions that we should pay attention to things that seem normal to us, but others might find weird. You should look out for things that come naturally to you and then double down on them. Only because you are different doesn't mean it's wrong. Never conform!
  • When giving feedback, every word counts. Rather than advising people what to do by telling them "Do this... do that...", we should give advice more from a perspective of a wise grandfather talking to his grandchildren. Start sentences with "Have you considered...", "This might help..." etc.
  • Loved the point about the lottery by @Tweeve11 - I fully agree: winning the lottery feels like cheating for people like us. It's a shortcut we don't want to take. Because on the way to the promised land, there are no shortcuts.
  • It's about the journey, not the goal. You can make plans all you want, but they are worthless the second you start executing, because you can never predict all the variables. Get comfortable with the idea of your journey to the fastlane being more like Columbus sailing off to discover new things.
  • If you are solving the same problems over and over again, it means you are not progressing. New problems mean new challenges, while you are progressing. Consider changing problems as a confirmation of being on the right path. They are hurdles towards the finish line, not walls you cannot climb. See them as stepping stones on the way of crossing the river until you are on the other side.
  • Very good point about patience by @Tweeve11 - only because you don't have abs after a 90 day fitness plan, doesn't mean what you have been doing was wrong. The grind happens when nobody is watching and seeing the results might take a while.
  • Do manual work until you get bored of it, then optimize your processes and scale them up.
  • Very emotional justification of @Andy Black's change of work back in the days. It just is wonderful if people tell you "Thank god for Andy", compared to dealing with databases. Great story about how to make an impact on peoples lives - on the lives of real people, with real families who need food on the table.
  • Great point by @Tweeve11 on the rise of social media management as a service. Many business owners seem to be skeptical, but wouldn't want to miss out on the trend. What if we could provide them with real results to make them comfortably investing more money into social media?
  • Interesting insight by @Andy Black into why he doesn't do paid Facebook traffic. He'd rather be a 10 out of 10 guy for one skill, than a 9 out of 10 for two skills. AdWords seem to work better for services where Facebook doesn't work as well. Who wants to post about looking for a "divorce lawyer" on Facebook?

A ton of great input and excellent lessons learned.

Thank you @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!
Dayum, you could be a professional cliff-note taker. I'm paying out in forum rep for your notes, but maybe people (me) should be paying you for your summaries?
 
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Andy Black

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At one point you said that back then it was tougher to create something on the internet or to sell on internet and find something...but i really think even if it was tougher (didn't have all the all-in-one service website creation), you had more chance to succeed.
I mean like in my activity : Coffee, right now if i want to open an online marketplace for coffee/tea and stuff, there is already 2 big business which occupies the entire french market.
In 2005 if i were 20yo as i am right now, i would have done it more easily like they did.

BUT, if you got the big idea that everyone is searching for or if you're smart enough to create a need, this is the greatest era.
This is an incredible era. I've been "working" on my phone today. In the car after doing the school run and waiting for traffic to die down. In the cafe briefly while I'm waiting for someone.

There's no excuses in this day and age.
 

AlessioLC

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This is an incredible era. I've been "working" on my phone today. In the car after doing the school run and waiting for traffic to die down. In the cafe briefly while I'm waiting for someone.

There's no excuses in this day and age.
No doubts! But i mean what if there are already two big guys in the party that is providing coffee for everyone in France and got a good service, no issues in the delivery services and doing everything right, i won't say you can't build an other one but there is a chance to just survive and not actually succeed like there are doing.

I really think my new concept of Espresso Bar is more Fastlane (semi-fastlane because you need a lot of H.R) than a new e-commerce.
 

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Excellent call @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!

I again learned many things I'd do differently going forward - thank you guys for letting me learn with you.

Some important insights for me were:
  • @Tweeve11 brought up an interesting point about the overall industry. The last couple of years have seen a rise for nearly anonymous platforms such as UpWork etc. People seemed to look for a quick solution for their problems, without necessarily talking to a real person on the phone, for a limited budget. It seems that it's shifting again to people looking to find the right fit and learn a bit more about the face and person behind the service. It also seems as if people are willing to spend more for better quality again.
  • @Andy Black mentions that we should pay attention to things that seem normal to us, but others might find weird. You should look out for things that come naturally to you and then double down on them. Only because you are different doesn't mean it's wrong. Never conform!
  • When giving feedback, every word counts. Rather than advising people what to do by telling them "Do this... do that...", we should give advice more from a perspective of a wise grandfather talking to his grandchildren. Start sentences with "Have you considered...", "This might help..." etc.
  • Loved the point about the lottery by @Tweeve11 - I fully agree: winning the lottery feels like cheating for people like us. It's a shortcut we don't want to take. Because on the way to the promised land, there are no shortcuts.
  • It's about the journey, not the goal. You can make plans all you want, but they are worthless the second you start executing, because you can never predict all the variables. Get comfortable with the idea of your journey to the fastlane being more like Columbus sailing off to discover new things.
  • If you are solving the same problems over and over again, it means you are not progressing. New problems mean new challenges, while you are progressing. Consider changing problems as a confirmation of being on the right path. They are hurdles towards the finish line, not walls you cannot climb. See them as stepping stones on the way of crossing the river until you are on the other side.
  • Very good point about patience by @Tweeve11 - only because you don't have abs after a 90 day fitness plan, doesn't mean what you have been doing was wrong. The grind happens when nobody is watching and seeing the results might take a while.
  • Do manual work until you get bored of it, then optimize your processes and scale them up.
  • Very emotional justification of @Andy Black's change of work back in the days. It just is wonderful if people tell you "Thank god for Andy", compared to dealing with databases. Great story about how to make an impact on peoples lives - on the lives of real people, with real families who need food on the table.
  • Great point by @Tweeve11 on the rise of social media management as a service. Many business owners seem to be skeptical, but wouldn't want to miss out on the trend. What if we could provide them with real results to make them comfortably investing more money into social media?
  • Interesting insight by @Andy Black into why he doesn't do paid Facebook traffic. He'd rather be a 10 out of 10 guy for one skill, than a 9 out of 10 for two skills. AdWords seem to work better for services where Facebook doesn't work as well. Who wants to post about looking for a "divorce lawyer" on Facebook?

A ton of great input and excellent lessons learned.

Thank you @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!

Love your takeaway posts! They help me fill in the gaps!
 

GatsbyMag

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Excellent call @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!

Some important insights for me were:
  • Great point by @Tweeve11 on the rise of social media management as a service. Many business owners seem to be skeptical, but wouldn't want to miss out on the trend. What if we could provide them with real results to make them comfortably investing more money into social media?

Thank you @Andy Black and @Tweeve11!
Just a word on this, from experience and observation I feel social media marketing (smm) only really works for big brands. I know clients who have all their social media up to date and post regularly. At the end of the day, the only time they've ever gotten results is when they buy an ad on Facebook and if they manage to rise up ranks in Google search and even then the results aren't that great. I'd appreciate it if someone who is successful with smm could share their thoughts on this.
 

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This is an incredible era. I've been "working" on my phone today. In the car after doing the school run and waiting for traffic to die down. In the cafe briefly while I'm waiting for someone.

There's no excuses in this day and age.
Amen
 

Nicoknowsbest

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Dayum, you could be a professional cliff-note taker. I'm paying out in forum rep for your notes, but maybe people (me) should be paying you for your summaries?
I like distilling a lot of input into its essence - I somehow have fun doing it.

Thank you very much for the rep sent, much appreciated!


Love your takeaway posts! They help me fill in the gaps!
Thank you so much for this - I'm very happy they help!


Just a word on this, from experience and observation I feel social media marketing (smm) only really works for big brands. I know clients who have all their social media up to date and post regularly. At the end of the day, the only time they've ever gotten results is when they buy an ad on Facebook and if they manage to rise up ranks in Google search and even then the results aren't that great. I'd appreciate it if someone who is successful with smm could share their thoughts on this.
I'm just about to start out on Social Media in my industry, so I can't really answer this.

Just yesterday I heard about somebody in my industry who gets referred on by word of mouth by existing clients to people in their networks, who then go on social media to find him.
 
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Just a word on this, from experience and observation I feel social media marketing (smm) only really works for big brands. I know clients who have all their social media up to date and post regularly. At the end of the day, the only time they've ever gotten results is when they buy an ad on Facebook and if they manage to rise up ranks in Google search and even then the results aren't that great. I'd appreciate it if someone who is successful with smm could share their thoughts on this.
What does SMM even mean?

I connected with someone this week and took it to Skype the next day.
We're already working on things together.

How did we find each other? LinkedIn.
Was I doing Social Media Marketing?

Here's the details:
 

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Just a word on this, from experience and observation I feel social media marketing (smm) only really works for big brands. I know clients who have all their social media up to date and post regularly. At the end of the day, the only time they've ever gotten results is when they buy an ad on Facebook and if they manage to rise up ranks in Google search and even then the results aren't that great. I'd appreciate it if someone who is successful with smm could share their thoughts on this.
I see quite a few "small" brands that are doing very well with instagram, twitter and integrated pinterest(not ads). They are actually drumming up sales and revenue on these channels. You get what you put into it, and some channels will definitely work better than others for certain niches. To say it only works for big brands - could you define that? - is categorically false. Ultimately you still need a decent value offering, and appeal to your customer base.

And by small, I am referring to companies that you will never likely hear of.
 

GatsbyMag

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What does SMM even mean?

I connected with someone this week and took it to Skype the next day.
We're already working on things together.

How did we find each other? LinkedIn.
Was I doing Social Media Marketing?

Here's the details:
I see quite a few "small" brands that are doing very well with instagram, twitter and integrated pinterest(not ads). They are actually drumming up sales and revenue on these channels. You get what you put into it, and some channels will definitely work better than others for certain niches. To say it only works for big brands - could you define that? - is categorically false. Ultimately you still need a decent value offering, and appeal to your customer base.

And by small, I am referring to companies that you will never likely hear of.
I appreciate the responses, the main takeaway is that the type of platform matters and HOW you use the platform really matters (thank you for that example Andy). I wasn't asserting that SMM only works for big brands, I was merely sharing my thoughts to be educated by those who are experienced. Thanks!
 

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sector7

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This Marshall Scott Weaver guy, aka @Tweeve11 is a crook and a liar. He had a marketplace ad here on the forum which @Andy Black linked to in his original post (but @MJ DeMarco has since removed it), where he was selling client acquisition services for "only" $2k a month.

Four months later, I'm still waiting for a refund from this slimeball who has used every lie in the book. He said that he was homeless because of the Florida hurricane (surprisingly, a few other friends from Tampa said that Tampa wasn't affected too much by it), told me that he's looking for a job to put food on the table, despite the fact that his LinkedIn and Facebook pages show that he's been employed since August (the month when he was supposed to generate sales for his fastlane clients).

He was supposed to generate 10-15 leads a month in the price range of $3-$5k. He delivered 0 leads after the first 3 weeks, at which point I asked for a refund and was told that he no longer has my money. Initially, I suggested we set up a payment plan but he refused and asked for all the money in advance. I thought only prostitutes do that, but it seems there are others as well. These were his exact words when I dared to suggest we divide the payment into two parts: "I drove over $100,000 in leads between January and June and while I know that we may not know each other, my track record is very much proven. " But yet, he was incapable of delivering a single lead to my business.

Both @Fox and @Andy Black spoke highly of him and this was the reason I decided to try out his services. I am not trying to pass the blame on to them since they are clearly not at fault, but I just want to stress how recommending others without knowing them well enough can lead to things of this nature, and that we should be extremely careful who we recommend to others.

He has blocked my phone number and email address and refuses to give me my money back. He seems to have also shut down his website and business social media accounts for his Pinnacle Web Consulting "business": Log In or Sign Up to View

<Additional link removed by admin>

This is just a warning to anyone who is considering doing business with Marshall Weaver at any point in time.

Business details:
PINNACLE WEB CONSULTING LLC
Filing Information
Document Number L17000166327
FEI/EIN Number NONE
Date Filed 08/04/2017
Effective Date 07/29/2017

Principal Business Address
9046 MOONLIT MEADOWS LOOP
RIVERVIEW, FL 33578 UN

Registered Agent Name: WEAVER, SCOTT M
 
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I had no reasons not to recommend him at the time but since this happened to you I have cut all contact.

I told him multiple times to pay you back and was under the impression he was sorting something out with you. Me and Andy both worked our hardest to right this situation (offering other services for free etc) but this wasn’t our business and we could only do so much.

When you wrote to me explaining he hadn’t fixed this I banned him from my groups, blocked him personally, and told anyone else who I knew he has doing business with to stay clear. I really pushed hard for him to make things right with you and also recommended you to do what it takes to recover your lose if he didn’t.

I have recommended dozens of other people on here and seen huge results as they have helped others in a big way. That being said for anyone reading this I recommend you verify first that people are capable of delivering on what they promised. Also structure a deal that doesn’t leave you open to something like the above. I always recommend a commission only sales structure that is based on people getting results first.
 

ApparentHorizon

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This Marshall Scott Weaver guy, aka @Tweeve11 is a crook and a liar. He had a marketplace ad here on the forum which @Andy Black linked to in his original post (but @MJ DeMarco has since removed it), where he was selling client acquisition services for "only" $2k a month.

Four months later, I'm still waiting for a refund from this slimeball who has used every lie in the book. He said that he was homeless because of the Florida hurricane (surprisingly, a few other friends from Tampa said that Tampa wasn't affected too much by it), told me that he's looking for a job to put food on the table, despite the fact that his LinkedIn and Facebook pages show that he's been employed since August (the month when he was supposed to generate sales for his fastlane clients).

He was supposed to generate 10-15 leads a month in the price range of $3-$5k. He delivered 0 leads after the first 3 weeks, at which point I asked for a refund and was told that he no longer has my money. Initially, I suggested we set up a payment plan but he refused and asked for all the money in advance. I thought only prostitutes do that, but it seems there are others as well. These were his exact words when I dared to suggest we divide the payment into two parts: "I drove over $100,000 in leads between January and June and while I know that we may not know each other, my track record is very much proven. " But yet, he was incapable of delivering a single lead to my business.

Both @Fox and @Andy Black spoke highly of him and this was the reason I decided to try out his services. I am not trying to pass the blame on to them since they are clearly not at fault, but I just want to stress how recommending others without knowing them well enough can lead to things of this nature, and that we should be extremely careful who we recommend to others.

He has blocked my phone number and email address and refuses to give me my money back. He seems to have also shut down his website and business social media accounts for his Pinnacle Web Consulting "business": Log In or Sign Up to View

<Additional link removed by admin>

This is just a warning to anyone who is considering doing business with Marshall Weaver at any point in time.

Business details:
PINNACLE WEB CONSULTING LLC
Filing Information
Document Number L17000166327
FEI/EIN Number NONE
Date Filed 08/04/2017
Effective Date 07/29/2017

Principal Business Address
9046 MOONLIT MEADOWS LOOP
RIVERVIEW, FL 33578 UN

Registered Agent Name: WEAVER, SCOTT M
I worked with him when he first started that service. It took him ~6 weeks to produce a handful of less than qualified leads from various groups he's a part of. But I did get my investment back.

He was scouring private groups then tried to scale it with PPC ads. Looks like he fell short there...

Nonetheless, @sector7 that still sucks.

Always remember, don't invest what you can't afford to lose.
 

sector7

Bronze Contributor
I've Read UNSCRIPTED
Speedway Pass
Jan 26, 2015
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Always remember, don't invest what you can't afford to lose.
Not sure how this is relevant. I paid for a service. I didn't invest in the stock market :smile: It's as if you buy something from Amazon, never receive the product and then someone telling you that you shouldn't have purchased it if you weren't willing to accept the risk that you'll never receive it or get your money back.

@Fox I appreciated your involvement in trying to correct his wrongdoings. Karma will pay him back sooner or later.

Due to the bad publicity, he closed his Pinnacle Web Consulting business and started a new one called Magnetic Panda. Just a warning to everyone considering doing business with them. He's the head of sales there so you know what to expect :smile:
 

ApparentHorizon

Platinum Contributor
Speedway Pass
Apr 1, 2016
924
2,698
653
Greenville, SC
Not sure how this is relevant. I paid for a service. I didn't invest in the stock market :smile: It's as if you buy something from Amazon, never receive the product and then someone telling you that you shouldn't have purchased it if you weren't willing to accept the risk that you'll never receive it or get your money back.
There's a 0.000000000001% Amazon goes belly up tomorrow, and no one gets their packages. Since it's an established company, we have faith they'll come through.

There's a 90-something % chance that a newly formed business doesn't succeed.

I don't know about you, but whenever I spend money for my business, I expect an ROI.

Lease an office building?
- There's the expectation it will catapult my biz to the next level with in house employees.
- There's also a chance it burns down the next day and all of my equipment.

Buy a new computer?
- There's the expectation of getting projects done faster.
- There's also a chance it gets infected with a virus.

Everything is an investment.

I got my money back because I managed him like an investment. He knew if he messed up, he would have bigger problems.

I'm not saying that to showboat. We both lost time and money on that. On what could be used for other more fruitful ventures.

But to say paying for a service to increase business is not an investment...well I'll have to respectfully disagree.

One of the best industries I became familiar with was the stock market, a few years ago. Day trading, options, forex, long-term Warren Buffet style investments, you name it.

It completely changed my view of the world, and now the first question I ask...whether it's buying ice cream from Publix or evaluating multi-national corporations...is, what's the Risk/Reward?
 

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