The Entrepreneur Forum | Financial Freedom | Starting a Business | Motivation | Money | Success

Welcome to the only entrepreneur forum dedicated to building life-changing wealth.

Build a Fastlane business. Earn real financial freedom. Join free.

Join over 80,000 entrepreneurs who have rejected the paradigm of mediocrity and said "NO!" to underpaid jobs, ascetic frugality, and suffocating savings rituals— learn how to build a Fastlane business that pays both freedom and lifestyle affluence.

Free registration at the forum removes this block.

An Unpopular Opinion - Questioning The Value of Mindfulness For Entrepreneurs

Anything related to matters of the mind

Black_Dragon43

Legendary Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
333%
Apr 28, 2017
2,186
7,277
‍☠️ Eastern Europe
Although I come as someone who was, at one point, helped by mindfulness, lately I am questioning whether there really is as much to it as popular media would have you believe, or there are other ways to obtain the same benefits, only to a greater extent, and faster.

I am of the opinion that beliefs matter, and they matter a great deal. What you think, and how you think matters. Your goal if you want to be a productive entrepreneur isn't just to observe your mindset but to change it. To sharpen it. To transmute limiting beliefs, into empowering beliefs.

Because ultimately your results emerge out of your decisions, and your decisions emerge out of your beliefs and mindset, which form your identity.

So is setting aside 1 hour to meditate every day really helping you be more productive? Or is it rather an escape? A coping mechanism that you employ to get away from the work, rather than to jump into it and tackle it?

Wouldn't it be better to visualize yourself doing the work, remind yourself constantly why what you're doing matters to you (what's your purpose?), concentrate on the end result, and be driven to succeed all the while you're working? Isn't having a big WHY, visualizing success, practicing optimism, and ruthlessly working to put empowering beliefs in your subconscious mind better than mindfulness?

Jon Kabat Zinn defines mindfulness as: "the awareness that arises from paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment and non-judgmentally". The focus of mindfulness is on awareness, on letting be. I think this focus, and the whole attitude promoted by it, is actually destructive of productivity in the long run. Sure, if you're troubled by depression and anxiety, mindfulness can give you the "respite" you need to break away from it, and get a handle on yourself, so that you can become more productive - you can stop spending time depressed, and actually doing something useful (when you stop meditating, I might add). But apart from such situations, its uses seem limited, and more likely to be harmful.

Instead of judging your negative beliefs, you pay attention to them, on purpose, non-judgementally. You let them be. While you're practicing mindfulness, when you notice a negative belief, you're supposed to put your attention back on the breath. Not question the negative belief, not ask yourself if it really is true, not consider if the belief helps, or hinders you from reaching your goal. If your focus is on noticing what is going on in the present, that means that your focus isn't on your goal, which is always in the future.

So there is this unspoken of battle between mindfulness as a practice which teaches you to return your attention to the breath and let go of your beliefs (because they are just thoughts, etc. etc.) and the other approach which says: have a negative belief? Start questioning it. Ask yourself if it's useful, if it's helping you. And do something about it.

The additional point I have here is that meditation may (there isn't sufficient research yet) contribute to ego-depletion. Using your System 2 (from Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow, a great read) to concentrate on some activity depletes willpower. You have limited willpower. If you concentrate on being mindful, which is an effort of your willpower in controlling your attention, it's very likely that you will cause some ego-depletion. The result of this is that you'll be less likely to be motivated when the next obstacle comes along.

If I look at some peak performers, especially in endurance (whether sports or business) where the mind game is very important, I don't see them being big on mindfulness. David Goggins, Jocko Willink, Alex Becker, etc. - none of them seem fans. And yet, their achievements are unquestioned. So I question whether mindfulness really plays an important role in productivity.

Sure, I am aware of people like Tim Ferris who claim many of the millionaires he interviewed practice mindfulness, or Ray Dalio, Steve Jobs etc. I'm not sure whether those people practice mindfulness just because it's popular, or it actually helps them be more productive (or they practice it for some other reason - clarity of mind, etc.)

I agree that, when it comes to relaxation, mindfulness can be helpful. But then there are other ways to achieve relaxation: pray, read a good novel, watch a movie, talk with a friend. Why should we prefer to meditate, rather than the other possibilities we have to relax? Especially when you consider the possible risks associated with mindfulness itself.

Anyway, just some thoughts on the subject I thought I'd share with the rest of the community. Just to make it clear, I don't have a dogmatic attitude about this, if it helps you good, just sharing some thoughts :)

P.S. Might as well add this: Mindfulness is demotivating
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.
Last edited:

Putt

Bronze Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
159%
Jan 1, 2020
86
137
I would much rather spend an hour a day reviewing my successes and failures and learning from them than meditating. I think mindfulness is an escape. Sometimes you need that. Before I really understood entrepreneurial depression and anxiety (some amazing guides here on the forum), occasionally I would use meditation as a way to 'depressurize'. Regularly practicing mindfulness has never helped me to succeed.

I compare it to people, in response to failure, saying: "oh well, you tried your best". In my opinion, if you failed then you need to improve. If you tried your best, then you need to make your best better. It's a false sense of self-security. No different from action faking.

While you're letting your body escape reality, there's people switching lanes to the Fastlane and starting a new business or buying more real estate.
 

MTF

Never give up
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
455%
May 1, 2011
7,613
34,643
If I look at some peak performers, especially in endurance (whether sports or business) where the mind game is very important, I don't see them being big on mindfulness. David Goggins, Jocko Willink, Alex Becker, etc. - none of them seem fans. And yet, their achievements are unquestioned. So I question whether mindfulness really plays an important role in productivity.

Anyone serious about sports and improving physical performance is practicing mindfulness during every single workout, and that's definitely what Goggins and Willink do (don't know much about the third guy).

I don't meditate in the most common meaning of this word but I do meditate as I engage deeply in my favorite physical activities. IMO, each time you focus on a single activity as you do, for example, when sprinting, you can't help but tune out every single irrelevant thought. I find this is most common in high-intensity (martial arts, sprinting of any form, strenuous hiking), high-risk sports (surfing, climbing, snowboarding, etc.), or high-precision sports (tennis, archery, shooting).
 

Black_Dragon43

Legendary Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
333%
Apr 28, 2017
2,186
7,277
‍☠️ Eastern Europe
Anyone serious about sports and improving physical performance is practicing mindfulness during every single workout, and that's definitely what Goggins and Willink do (don't know much about the third guy).
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3U_VnOJ_UI
This is funny ^^ :D - all kidding aside, what you're saying may be true, but they certainly don't claim they meditate:

View: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10153701307187241
To what extent the state they're in when concentrating for the purposes of physical activity is identical to the state meditators are in is debatable. People generally don't claim to have achieved enlightenment after strenous exercise, but there are some who do after meditation. I think we have reason to believe that despite the surface similarities in terms of both directing attention non-judgementally in the present moment, there are some key differences. Namely, in meditation the awareness goes towards "what is there". In the kind of concentration that Jocko and the like practice, the awareness is not wide open, it is closed and focused around their goal. They care only about what is relevant to them. If something is happening around that isn't relevant to survival and victory, they will not even notice it. Not so in meditation, where awareness is wide-open, and not goal-directed.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

Zcott

Silver Contributor
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
213%
Jul 24, 2018
303
645
Mindfulness meditation should not be used an excuse for failure or the key to succeeding.

If someone is using mindfulness to set themselves up for success then they're setting themselves up for failure. That's not what mindfulness is about, it's about giving you more head space. There are countless benefits to practicing it. Just like working out, it's part of a healthy routine.

I've been practicing for a while now and I wish I started ages ago. Coincidentally I've been making strides with business at the same time. I'm not correlating the two, but that extra space has helped a lot and stopped my mind racing. I'm not sure why in your OP though you mention doing it for an hour a day. If that's too much then just do ten minutes.

So there is this unspoken of battle between mindfulness as a practice which teaches you to return your attention to the breath and let go of your beliefs (because they are just thoughts, etc. etc.) and the other approach which says: have a negative belief? Start questioning it. Ask yourself if it's useful, if it's helping you. And do something about it.

Agree with you here. In two sessions last week, one said to turn in to uncomfortable feelings and stay with it... the next one said if you get distracted just return to the breath. I can think of a good reasoning as to the difference but yah, it's a conflicting message lol
 

The-J

Dog Dad
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
264%
Aug 28, 2011
4,209
11,101
Ontario
I think you should be careful not to generalize.

Meditation might not be for you. That's fine. Jocko Willink practices detachment when the situation calls for it, but does not set aside time to meditate. Eckhart Tolle does not do a meditation practice either, as he stated in The Power of Now.

Arguing that mindfulness time should be 'better spent elsewhere' is a highly personal choice. Many people find value in observing the ebbs and flows of their mind and emotions. You might not, preferring instead to stay in the material world of thought and object.

It's like saying that a Christian should spend less time praying or studying scripture and more time giving alms to the poor, because praying is spiritual masturbation and it's only your actions that matter. That might be fine for you, but telling others that this is what they should do to be more Christ-like is dogmatic and ignores the benefits of what they're doing. (I also feel this way of people who try to push meditation onto others. Lol)

But, when deciding whether it's for you, you need to decide whether or not it's actually helping you. And, more importantly, HOW is it helping you.

It sounds to me that you believe that if it doesn't help you in business, it is worthless and should be thrown out. I hope I am wrong about that.

If you concentrate on being mindful, which is an effort of your willpower in controlling your attention, it's very likely that you will cause some ego-depletion. The result of this is that you'll be less likely to be motivated when the next obstacle comes along.

How do you know this is true?
 

Black_Dragon43

Legendary Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
333%
Apr 28, 2017
2,186
7,277
‍☠️ Eastern Europe
How do you know this is true?
I don't know it's true, but I expect it to be true based on an understanding of how the human mind works and the sort of activities that cause ego depletion. Largely based upon my reading of Thinking Fast & Slow, and understanding how System 1, and System 2 work, and where mindfulness would fit in there. That's why I said "very likely", not "certain".

Having done some quick research:
Mindfulness counteracts ego depletion
Mindfulness contributes to ego depletion
Mindfulness has no discernible impact

These are the top results - the jury is still out.
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

Andreas Thiel

Silver Contributor
FASTLANE INSIDER
Read Rat-Race Escape!
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
112%
Aug 27, 2018
626
703
43
Karlsruhe, Germany
Okay, that is an interesting thought exercise. I would probably put myself in the Mindfulness counteracts ego depletion camp.

I think reflection takes time but does not consume any willpower.
Trying to be hyper-prodictive always backfired when I tried it. At some point I always got derailed because I had to take care of a backlog of "other" stuff.

I don't think meditation is helpful when it means trying to turn everything off and not think.
What I do think is helpful is evaluating what the current imbalances are in the categories: mental, emotional, social and physical. Then make a plan how those imbalances can be addressed.
 
Last edited:

The-J

Dog Dad
FASTLANE INSIDER
EPIC CONTRIBUTOR
Read Fastlane!
Read Unscripted!
Summit Attendee
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
264%
Aug 28, 2011
4,209
11,101
Ontario
I don't know it's true, but I expect it to be true based on an understanding of how the human mind works and the sort of activities that cause ego depletion. Largely based upon my reading of Thinking Fast & Slow, and understanding how System 1, and System 2 work, and where mindfulness would fit in there. That's why I said "very likely", not "certain".

Having done some quick research:
Mindfulness counteracts ego depletion
Mindfulness contributes to ego depletion
Mindfulness has no discernible impact

These are the top results - the jury is still out.

As a result, I would recommend people test it out for themselves. Do it as a habit for, say, 3 months, and see if it actually contributes to any of your valued measures of well being (joyfulness, emotional management, people skills, productivity, relationship quality, whatever).

If it doesn't, don't do it anymore. You are your own best scientist.
 

RealDreams

Silver Contributor
Read Unscripted!
Speedway Pass
User Power
Value/Post Ratio
170%
Jun 22, 2018
348
590
In my opinion, the point of mindfulness is to simply gain focus on where you are in life.
The same goal can be achieved with journaling.

Does it help you being more productive? It does. Does it make you productive? Not really.
At the end of the day, what matters is what you have done.

I usually meditate late in the evening, after I took some action towards my goals, as a way to sum up what I've done during the day and whether I've been productive or not.

So in a few words, you should definitely employ in some form of meditation to gain perspective. Just do it after you've taken action during the day.

Anyways, I found this video useful. I know it has nothing to do with meditation itself, but as I said, it's a form of mindfulness.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czru2CuWyxQ&
 
Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.
D

Deleted78083

Guest
Sure, if you're troubled by depression and anxiety, mindfulness can give you the "respite" you

Actually, it is the other way around. It is highly recommended to people with mental problems (depression, schizophrenia, etc) NOT to meditate because it worsens their condition.

Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post, i dont believe mindfulness or meditation adds so much value, or that the value it adds could be is restricted to meditation. I believe that practicing any activity where you have to focus will eventually add the same effects, with the benefits of practicing that activity (be it running, walking, cooking, painting...)
 

Post New Topic

Please SEARCH before posting.
Please select the BEST category.

Post new topic

Guest post submissions offered HERE.

Latest Posts

New Topics

Fastlane Insiders

View the forum AD FREE.
Private, unindexed content
Detailed process/execution threads
Ideas needing execution, more!

Join Fastlane Insiders.

Top