9-5 is the modern evil

[stevenknow]

actually as a 21yo male, sex for a 9-5 doesnt sound too bad....

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

 

[Jason "GrandK"]

There is nothing on gods green earth that i would want to do 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

MJ writes about the current Scripted phenomena in his book UnScripted .

You see, once upon a time men who could not pay a debt became a slave to the one whom they owed a debt to. They would then settle the debt through years of indentured service to their master. You can read about this in the book The Richest Man in Babylon.

Nowadays, we are taught from a young age to be consumers and we voluntarily agree to be slaves to our masters. The system is designed to create lifelong slaves who makes just enough to spend it on so-called leisure, providing the appearance of freedom.

Henry Ford is said to have had a hand in the 40 hour work week. Prior to 5 day work week, people used to work 6 days. Henry Ford stated that “It is high time to rid ourselves of the notion that leisure for workmen is either ‘lost time’ or a class privilege.” See Ford factory workers get 40-hour week - May 01, 1926 - HISTORY.com From that statement, you would think Ford was looking out for the best interest of the workers.

But guess what was really at the heart of Ford's move to the 40 hour work week? Here is what Ford's motivation was for the 40 hour workweek. "The harder we crowd business for time, the more efficient it becomes. The more well-paid leisure workmen get, the greater become their wants. These wants soon become needs. Well-managed business pays high wages and sells at low prices. Its workmen have the leisure to enjoy life and the wherewithal with which to finance that enjoyment." And then, "But it is the influence of leisure on consumption which makes the short day and, the short week so necessary. The people who consume the bulk of goods are the people who make them. That is a fact we must never forget -- that is the secret of our prosperity." HENRY FORD: Why I Favor Five Days' Work With Six Days' Pay - Wikisource, the free online library

It is all about the bottom line and how to make men work harder, consume more and become more and more entrenched in the Scripted path. It is the path of modern day slavery.

 

[luniac]

There is nothing on gods green earth that i would want to do 8 hours a day 5 days a week.
Not sex, not my favorite sport, not my favorite video games, not reading, not movies, not chilling at the beach,

and most certainly not something i dont even want to do like day job work.

F*ck the 9-5 its an unnatural spawn of industrialization and will not exist in 100 years.
Those of us trapped in the middle of it must F*ckin escape this devil.

Its not even efficient! studies have shown productivity plummets after only a few hours, the only reason we still have 9-5 is because society is so rigid to change.
part time work would be healthier and more productive, if i ever have employeed id only hire for part time work.

/endrant

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

But guess what was really at the heart of Ford's move to the 40 hour work week? Here is what Ford's motivation was for the 40 hour workweek. "The harder we crowd business for time, the more efficient it becomes. The more well-paid leisure workmen get, the greater become their wants. These wants soon become needs. Well-managed business pays high wages and sells at low prices. Its workmen have the leisure to enjoy life and the wherewithal with which to finance that enjoyment." And then, "But it is the influence of leisure on consumption which makes the short day and, the short week so necessary. The people who consume the bulk of goods are the people who make them. That is a fact we must never forget -- that is the secret of our prosperity." HENRY FORD: Why I Favor Five Days' Work With Six Days' Pay - Wikisource, the free online library

Ah yes, mediocre comfort...

 

[Jason "GrandK"]

Funny enough, the aforementioned Ford was a devout socialist. It was seen as the right wing capitalist response to communism and the then current exploitation of workers.

Not sure how you arrived at Ford being a socialist. He certainly is a controversial figure but I don't know how you lump him into the category of socialist.

He exploited workers but he also paid well and did so with a 5 day week rather than 6. I am sure his workers did not feel exploited at the time.

But it has led to our current system, which I would agree is exploitative of employees.

Ford was a capitalist, as is evidenced by his ability of turning and maximizing resources and assets into capital. His greatest achievement being the utilization and maximization of human capital. I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.

And for the record, there is no greater exploitation of the common man than under socialist or communist regime. Capitalism, with a focus on individual liberty and property rights, is still the best system known to man.

 

[luniac]

.
I think wage stagnation has gone on long enough society has got to the point just before Ford, where doubling wages and halving hours of workers made economic sense. We only have 8 because hours were halved, and that was eventually the only way wnybify could compete with Ford.

I don't know of any company adopting a 20 hour work week though. There is no latter day Ford.

What's gonna happen is the demand for full time work will drop further and further. People will start freelancing more and more.

Eventually there will be noone left to work full time, not to mention robots taking up all the menial type work.

Huge societal changes will certainly occur within our lifetimes, but i REALLY dont want to be one of those suckers who were born at the wrong time to waste away my life at a 9-5.

Fastlane FTW!

 

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[minivanman]

actually as a 21yo male, sex for a 9-5 doesnt sound too bad....

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

I'm with you!! lol I'm almost 53 but I was going to say..... hold up here now....

Actually, I work way more than 8 hours but since I am the boss and I can do what I want, when I want..... I love it! Now if someone told me I had to be there at 9am every morning like my wife has to be..... couldn't do it. Now speaking of my wife and this conversation...... she is a 9-5er. She loves being there and she sometimes stays late. She works in one of the highest class art museums in the world. Before she met me they say it was hard to make her leave work. So there are people that do like it..... just not me or you. I'd have a hard time being there at 9am and leave at 10am. I'm sure I'd call in sick atleast a few times a month. lol

 

[Deleted50669]

actually as a 21yo male, sex for a 9-5 doesnt sound too bad....

Sent from my HTC 2PS6200 using Tapatalk

If you ever watch an interview with a pornstar, they will tell you otherwise.

 

[LittleWolfie]

I can quickly explain this 'phenomenon'.

People might be capable of producing more but they are in reality producing less. What does it mean? If you are 'producing' excel spreadsheets or powerpoint presentations then you aren't probably producing much.

Work expands too fit the time available. There were plenty of people 'producing ' ledgers and spreadsheets before the computer was a thing (Accountants) so intangible items are not really bad in themselves, that work is valued by the market T. This is the idesa behind ROW, if you can achieve all your weekly KPIs in 10 hours a week, why bother turning up for the other 30?

 

[Late Bloomer]

Interesting thread! I believe within my lifetime, we'll finally see enough Boomers retire so that Millennials are predominantly in charge in the workforce. When that happens, I think Millennials will take the whole concept of 9-5 standard hours and sweep it into the dustbin of history. Of course retail stores, restaurants, and medical clinics need to have predictable hours. Everything else will be on a very flexible schedule, with workers choosing which hours they want to come in or, more often, be available for instant response by phone/IM/video chat or whatever the Internet will have evolved to by then. Fortunately, most entrepreneurs don't have to wait for society to change, to start doing business in a futuristic way today.

 

[LittleWolfie]

its funny cause here in nyc it was easier for me to find full time work than part time.
and this is without health benefits and much less pay of course.

ima try to save as much extra money as i can for the inevitable day i get sick of this job and be out once again.
that is unless my fastlane takes off first.

Yes it comes up a lot As culture shock suffered by US expats. It's also how some of the European start-ups try to compete with silicon valley for talent they can't offer top notch money. However 28 days pto on your first year, seems to be a draw. (An example given by someone of why left the US for Berlin)

 

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[Everyman]

What's gonna happen is the demand for full time work will drop further and further. People will start freelancing more and more.

Eventually there will be noone left to work full time, not to mention robots taking up all the menial type work.

Huge societal changes will certainly occur within our lifetimes, but i REALLY dont want to be one of those suckers who were born at the wrong time to waste away my life at a 9-5.

Fastlane FTW!

That is interesting what you wrote.

I read people that are close to 'robot jobs' and they say it won't happen. Robots won't 'take over' and there will be no universal income for everyone (not going into details).

Another one is that there might be a problem with maintaining current manufacturing jobs/companies e.g. in Europe because there aren't enough people born to replace those who run the factories now (look at Sweden). Not to mention popularity of sociology degree over 'dirty' engineering degree...

Definitely there will be changes but some of them not exactly how we imagine...

But I agree 120%. It's ridiculous that today, with the internet, and all these tools, we work the same way Henry Ford developed it over a hundred years ago... It's insanity in it's purest form...

 

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[LittleWolfie]

true, can't predict for sure what's gonna happen. Gonna be interesting.

Possibly starting to drift off topic. However 11 hours is now the same production as 40 in 1950

Productivity and the Workweek - shorter hours

If we had kept the same levels of productivity and reduced hours, then we would be on 11 hour work weeks. With a possible drop in unemployment if we had decided to keep the companies going 40 hours a week then the Jetsons four hour day is not far off the mark (since the wife didn't work) George was doing two full time jobs in his society, no wonder he complained so much!

Interesting but perhaps irrelevant until your looking for employees.

 

[Jason "GrandK"]

well... at least Ford was being openly honest, ill give him that.

it makes me kind of sick at the thought "the people who consume the bulk of goods are the people who make them"

like a snake eating its own tail or something lol

We humans seem to be our own worst enemies. Like Oscar Wilde states, "We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell."

I doubt Ford would be as open and honest today. With the internet, such a diabolical scheme would quickly be attacked as the charade that it is. In his day and age, he was probably giving that confession to his peers, not to the general public. And since guys like Rockefeller owned the press, it was never going to leak to the general populace, unless framed as benevolence.

 

[luniac]

Ah yes, mediocre comfort...

View attachment 20103

goddamn i gotta reread the book again. I wish there was tech that would burn the book permanently into my mind lol

 

[Everyman]

I doubt Ford would be as open and honest today. With the internet, such a diabolical scheme would quickly be attacked as the charade that it is. In his day and age, he was probably giving that confession to his peers, not to the general public. And since guys like Rockefeller owned the press, it was never going to leak to the general populace, unless framed as benevolence.

You know that if you speak to 'an average person', it won't make any difference. You can show evidence of the truth. Doesn't matter. There are plenty of examples on the internet. They own the media but you have youtube and everything is there. So what?

I heard from my friends "You would have to be a doctor, dietician, lawyer, account, car mechanic and so on... and I don't have time for this." And they are right. But that's how it is and most people are too lazy to change it. And I see a chance for everyone there, because it's where you can outpace them. We should be happy for that.

it doesn't help that all land is now privatized. You can't simply say "to hell with all this" and go live in the forest.

Not more than 150 years ago there were no passports and border controls... Can you imagine?

Not more than a 100 years ago you could just take your family and neighbours and build a house in three weeks. No permits, no bureaucracy. That's how it happened and it wasn't so long ago.....

 

[LittleWolfie]

Not sure how you arrived at Ford being a socialist. He certainly is a controversial figure but I don't know how you lump him into the category of socialist.
.

He said so in his autobiography and he was a financial supporter of self declared socialist parties at home and abroad (note the American definition of socialism has changed since Ford's time in a way the UK/European definition hasn't.) Plus he took actions, that are very socialist within his lifetime.

He also paid well and did so with a 5 day week rather than 6. I am sure his workers did not feel exploited at the time.

That's socialist, the optimal numbers say have changed as society as marched on (no one suggests we should use Ford-era communication or transport technologies) but the principle of less work for good pay as an alternative to raising wages still holds. I understand he also liked to subsidise public libraries and parks on the thought that if the common man can go there, he won't go drinking instead. That's rather socialist.

Not sure how you arrived at Ford being a socialist. He certainly is a controversial figure but I don't know how you lump him into the category of socialist.

He exploited workers but he also paid well and did so with a 5 day week rather than 6. I am sure his workers did not feel exploited at the time.

But it has led to our current system, which I would agree is exploitative of employees.

Ford was a capitalist, as is evidenced by his ability of turning and maximizing resources and assets into capital. His greatest achievement being the utilization and maximization of human capital. I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.

And for the record, there is no greater exploitation of the common man than under socialist or communist regime. Capitalism, with a focus on individual liberty and property rights, is still the best system known to man.

Ford was a capitalist, as is evidenced by his ability of turning and maximizing resources and assets into capital. His greatest achievement being the utilization and maximization of human capital. I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.
.

Being a socialist doesn't mean you can't be a capitalist or right wing. Today we might call him a social capitalist or third way or Norweigan style.

Norway has a budget surplus, more assets than debts,utilises resources for capital generation and is still socialist.

Ford has not maximised the use of capital (otherwise it would be a 24/7 day work week) he optimised It considering the needs of the people and the demands of the capital. Did he have the ability to so so? Absolutely, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to do so.

I am not arguing for or against his policies, just stating my observation.

And for the record, there is no greater exploitation of the common man than under socialist or communism. Capitalism, with a focus on individual liberty and property rights, is still the best system known to man.

I'm not arguing for or against his polices either, but it's interesting that we have totally different definitions of the same actions.

As to no greater exploition of the common man, that depends on your definition. Is European healthcare socialist or capitalist? Inability to afford an ambulance leads to exploitation, is that capitalist? Is Europe socialist or capitalist? What about 1930-45 during Germany?

 

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[Gepi]

This is why I always respond that the "Digitalization" so dreaded by people and preached to be the death of so many jobs is a very good thing. Humans are not meant to slave off every day like a robot. Let's build more robots and programs and make them earn the money, while we watch them doing it. Finally the robots will be able to build more robots. Japan is a good example here.
And in the end there will be one big AI which is so uber-intelligent that it will make better business decisions than any human and accumulate a massive amount of wealth, only to make humans obsolete...lol

 

[Late Bloomer]

Unfollowing this thread because I thought it would be about alternative work schedules for the modern era, but it's actually about stating preconceived conclusions about the real meaning of economic and political theory. Maybe the title of the thread should be changed, to include a reference to Karl Marx?

 

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[LittleWolfie]

What's gonna happen is the demand for full time work will drop further and further. People will start freelancing more and more.

Eventually there will be noone left to work full time, not to mention robots taking up all the menial type work.

Huge societal changes will certainly occur within our lifetimes, but i REALLY dont want to be one of those suckers who were born at the wrong time to waste away my life at a 9-5.

Fastlane FTW!

Freelancers are in an even better position to force the change. Why work 40 hours for 40k when you can work 20 hours for 40k? Have control set your own hours.

There is kind of this notion that 40 hours is full time work, what happens if 75% of the population decides to adopt the 21 hour a week movement?

I read 25% is the number needed for social change,so watching the stats of part timers by choice (inc freelancers) would give an idea of how close you are. Depending on your age, you might be at the wrong time or the right time for death of the 9 to 5 for the majority.

You can fastlane for time rather than money. My money tree fruit is time.

Oh and I spoke to one developer who moved from Palo Alto to Utah (I'm not sure how hard that is) for a pay cut and a 10 to 2 job. Yes that's slow lane but the agency seems to have a lot of demand.

Part time doesn't seem to have the popularity with employers on the US it does in Europe . I wonder how much of the skills shortage is because employers don't offer that and people can slow lane freelance and just work those hours instead.

 

[luniac]

That is interesting what you wrote.

I read people that are close to 'robot jobs' and they say it won't happen. Robots won't 'take over' and there will be no universal income for everyone (not going into details).

Another one is that there might be a problem with maintaining current manufacturing jobs/companies e.g. in Europe because there aren't enough people born to replace those who run the factories now (look at Sweden). Not to mention popularity of sociology degree over 'dirty' engineering degree...

Definitely there will be changes but some of them not exactly how we imagine...

But I agree 120%. It's ridiculous that today, with the internet, and all these tools, we work the same way Henry Ford developed it over a hundred years ago... It's insanity in it's purest form...

true, can't predict for sure what's gonna happen. Gonna be interesting.

 

[luniac]

MJ writes about the current Scripted phenomena in his book UnScripted .

You see, once upon a time men who could not pay a debt became a slave to the one whom they owed a debt to. They would then settle the debt through years of indentured service to their master. You can read about this in the book The Richest Man in Babylon.

Nowadays, we are taught from a young age to be consumers and we voluntarily agree to be slaves to our masters. The system is designed to create lifelong slaves who makes just enough to spend it on so-called leisure, providing the appearance of freedom.

Henry Ford is said to have had a hand in the 40 hour work week. Prior to 5 day work week, people used to work 6 days. Henry Ford stated that “It is high time to rid ourselves of the notion that leisure for workmen is either ‘lost time’ or a class privilege.” See Ford factory workers get 40-hour week - May 01, 1926 - HISTORY.com From that statement, you would think Ford was looking out for the best interest of the workers.

But guess what was really at the heart of Ford's move to the 40 hour work week? Here is what Ford's motivation was for the 40 hour workweek. "The harder we crowd business for time, the more efficient it becomes. The more well-paid leisure workmen get, the greater become their wants. These wants soon become needs. Well-managed business pays high wages and sells at low prices. Its workmen have the leisure to enjoy life and the wherewithal with which to finance that enjoyment." And then, "But it is the influence of leisure on consumption which makes the short day and, the short week so necessary. The people who consume the bulk of goods are the people who make them. That is a fact we must never forget -- that is the secret of our prosperity." HENRY FORD: Why I Favor Five Days' Work With Six Days' Pay - Wikisource, the free online library

It is all about the bottom line and how to make men work harder, consume more and become more and more entrenched in the Scripted path. It is the path of modern day slavery.

well... at least Ford was being openly honest, ill give him that.

it makes me kind of sick at the thought "the people who consume the bulk of goods are the people who make them"

like a snake eating its own tail or something lol

 

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[luniac]

Serious question:
is the demise of the american made car karmic revenge against Ford's exploitation of the common man?

LOL

 

[luniac]

You know that if you speak to 'an average person', it won't make any difference. You can show evidence of the truth. Doesn't matter. There are plenty of examples on the internet. They own the media but you have youtube and everything is there. So what?

I heard from my friends "You would have to be a doctor, dietician, lawyer, account, car mechanic and so on... and I don't have time for this." And they are right. But that's how it is and most people are too lazy to change it. And I see a chance for everyone there, because it's where you can outpace them. We should be happy for that.



Not more than 150 years ago there were no passports and border controls... Can you imagine?

Not more than a 100 years ago you could just take your family and neighbours and build a house in three weeks. No permits, no bureaucracy. That's how it happened and it wasn't so long ago.....

yea it i can imagine and it frustrates me.
I may have found the fastlane path but I really feel bad for the rest.
I wish we could all be free, id rather be poor than be rich exploiting the ignorant.
but there's nothing i can do, this dynamic is fundamentally ingrained into modern society on every level.

even if i dont hire anyone and make apps myself for example, there's countless full time ignorant employees somewhere keeping the whole thing running. It is what it is.

 

[Everyman]

Possibly starting to drift off topic. However 11 hours is now the same production as 40 in 1950

Productivity and the Workweek - shorter hours

If we had kept the same levels of productivity and reduced hours, then we would be on 11 hour work weeks. With a possible drop in unemployment if we had decided to keep the companies going 40 hours a week then the Jetsons four hour day is not far off the mark (since the wife didn't work) George was doing two full time jobs in his society, no wonder he complained so much!

Interesting but perhaps irrelevant until your looking for employees.

I can quickly explain this 'phenomenon'.

People might be capable of producing more but they are in reality producing less. What does it mean? If you are 'producing' excel spreadsheets or powerpoint presentations then you aren't probably producing much. I work for a big company and the time and money wasted here go into quintillion dollars/euros etc... spend on unnecessary meetings, projects, services, products, building bureaucracy etc...

You need to ask yourself - what part of your 'job' is adding real value?

Secondly the FED is printing FED notes with the speed of light and the currency has already lost 97% of its value already since the inception (1913). The wage/salary increases haven't followed as fast because the freshly printed currency is captured firstly by the person standing closest to the printer (and 'an average person' is at the bottom). So you need to work more for less...

yea it i can imagine and it frustrates me.
I may have found the fastlane path but I really feel bad for the rest.
I wish we could all be free, id rather be poor than be rich exploiting the ignorant.
but there's nothing i can do, this dynamic is fundamentally ingrained into modern society on every level.

I did that too but now I just look for people that share my point of view/way of thinking. It's a waste of time to try to convince someone...

 

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[LittleWolfie]

Hmm, I wonder if this modern-day slavery is what has led to the rise of socialism.

Funny enough, the aforementioned Ford was a devout socialist. It was seen as the right wing capitalist response to communism and the then current exploitation of workers.

 

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[LittleWolfie]

is the best system a system allowing for maximum self actualization for its people?

That depends entirely on your personal and political viewpoints.

 

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[Jason "GrandK"]

is the best system a system allowing for maximum self actualization for its people?

There is no best system for allowing maximization of the self actualized soul. Simply look at history and the great men it has produced in the most desperate of times. Rather, men of valor and honor rise above all circumstances and are produced in all systems at all times. They are the ones who understand that suffering, pain, conflict and resistance are simply events to be endured, to reach a higher level of awareness.

Capitalism has allowed good men, who through their perseverance have created means and ways for mankind to flourish. But just like anything, it also has been used by perverse and wicked men to create more needless pain and suffering. It is not the system per se, but the man.

 

[Jason "GrandK"]

You and I conceptualize and define socialism and capitalism differently. As such, we see through different lenses. What you point to as socialism, I point to as compassionate capitalism. Socialism to me is when the government controls under the umbrella of collectivism and no longer allows the individual to flourish. If Ford chose to be a benefactor of his fellow man and society at large, that is not socialism, at least not how I would define it.

 

[Late Bloomer]

I spoke to one developer who moved from Palo Alto to Utah

It's easy logistically for an American to relocate within the U.S. You just need to find a landlord or a home to buy, decide whether to take your car or sell it and get another one in the new town, find new schools, grocery stores, church and whatever else you want in your life. Changing driver and car registration is usually quick and affordable.

Many Americans live less than five years in any place before they relocate.

The only part that's really difficult is to get a job in the new location. But if you have an Internet business, that should work as well anywhere.

You might have slower Internet service and fewer technical people within an easy drive in Utah. But also a much lower cost of a living and probably a much more relaxed, less hectic lifestyle. There are cultural differences across the country, but unless someone's a New Age hippie radical who hates Mormonism, they'll probably be able to make friends and get along fine in Utah.