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STOP Paying Rent: Live For Free

FeaRxUnLeAsHeD

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From an appraisal form point of view, the taxes and hazard insurance are included in the operating expenses which would bump up your overall percentage some. Only the actual mortgage payments (including interest) and income taxes are not. There's also a sinking fund factor for short-lived items such as appliances, roofs, etc. -- is that your CapEx estimate? Your repair percentage looks a bit low to me. Where are you figuring in the costs to get-it-ready-to-rent-again? Does your water percentage include sewer and trash fees?
Do you have a savings account with some back up $? In my life, everything hits the fan at the same time. I like to have some mortgage payment money and some major repairs money on hand for those moments. That's where I put my vacancy factor, repair percentage and sinking fund factor monies to be ready for those the-sky-is-falling moments.
However you look at it, just make sure that you are in the black rather than the red! As long as you have everything covered, it doesn't matter where you list it on your balance sheet. Good luck!
www.wjkbusinessbuzz.com

Thanks. I'm just speaking from the point of this thread to make sure the numbers work. I'm not concerned with appraisal, moreso 'is this in the black or red?' - it's already rented, although I'll be raising rents roughly 10% and getting under lease. I've got a list of all repairs needed from my home inspection and I'm allotting for the larger funds and repairs in CapEx and Repairs - the repairs are honestly high for what i'm allotting because i'm planning on spending a few thousand out of pocket up front to take care of a lot of repairs that were noted in the home inspection.
 
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WJK

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Thanks. I'm just speaking from the point of this thread to make sure the numbers work. I'm not concerned with appraisal, moreso 'is this in the black or red?' - it's already rented, although I'll be raising rents roughly 10% and getting under lease. I've got a list of all repairs needed from my home inspection and I'm allotting for the larger funds and repairs in CapEx and Repairs - the repairs are honestly high for what i'm allotting because i'm planning on spending a few thousand out of pocket up front to take care of a lot of repairs that were noted in the home inspection.
Good plan. I always try to take care of any repairs up front. It impresses the tenants and makes my life easier. Put any left over funds into your property savings account. Anything that you can save can eventually be used for your next purchase. Also, I like to set up a plan for getting the mortgage paid down ASAP. During the first years of the loan, so much of the payment goes to interest. I like to double the principal payments to get that nut paid off sooner than later.
I know, I know, I'm a lot more conservative than aggessive. BUT, that's one reason that I'm still investing in real estate.
Good luck!
 

Michael Burgess

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I just wanted to bring a bit of life back to this thread - I haven't been on the forums for a while, but this thread was instrumental in developing my interest in real estate. Quite happy to say...

I just bought my first 4-plex! :D

4plex front.jpg 4plex rear.jpg


----
It's in a small town in SW Ontario, and I'll be financing it with a low down payment and using CMHC insurance. I bought the 4plex for $152,500, and close on it at the end of January 2019. It is currently rented to stable tenants that have all been there for over a year, and is producing $2,650 / month in revenue. 3 of the tenants pay their own utilities, and the larger unit has utilities included.

The whole property (inside and out) is run down, and needs work - but I own a small landscaping company and plan to rebuild the outside landscape, and renovate the inside as tenants move out. I'll update the kitchens, bathrooms, flooring, paint, etc., and increase rents appropriately.

I plan to owner-occupy it, refinance it when I've built up some equity and forced appreciation (via renovations), take the refi money out, and continue investing in cashflowing rentals in the same area.

Also, if anyone's curious - I did a "split offer", where I actually sent two offers in to buy it; one unconditional a fair bit lower than asking price (it was on the market), and one at their asking price with a VTB. They weren't interested in the VTB, but signed back on my cash offer halfway - and I went for it!

Now I have to figure out financing, but with two months left until close, I'm confident I can make this happen and will own my first property. Stoked! Will keep things updated if people are interested in this. Definitely hope others are doing some house hacking / real estate investing out there :)
 

Zenoviy Kovtun

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I just wanted to bring a bit of life back to this thread - I haven't been on the forums for a while, but this thread was instrumental in developing my interest in real estate. Quite happy to say...

I just bought my first 4-plex! :D

View attachment 22543 View attachment 22544


----
It's in a small town in SW Ontario, and I'll be financing it with a low down payment and using CMHC insurance. I bought the 4plex for $152,500, and close on it at the end of January 2019. It is currently rented to stable tenants that have all been there for over a year, and is producing $2,650 / month in revenue. 3 of the tenants pay their own utilities, and the larger unit has utilities included.

The whole property (inside and out) is run down, and needs work - but I own a small landscaping company and plan to rebuild the outside landscape, and renovate the inside as tenants move out. I'll update the kitchens, bathrooms, flooring, paint, etc., and increase rents appropriately.

I plan to owner-occupy it, refinance it when I've built up some equity and forced appreciation (via renovations), take the refi money out, and continue investing in cashflowing rentals in the same area.

Also, if anyone's curious - I did a "split offer", where I actually sent two offers in to buy it; one unconditional a fair bit lower than asking price (it was on the market), and one at their asking price with a VTB. They weren't interested in the VTB, but signed back on my cash offer halfway - and I went for it!

Now I have to figure out financing, but with two months left until close, I'm confident I can make this happen and will own my first property. Stoked! Will keep things updated if people are interested in this. Definitely hope others are doing some house hacking / real estate investing out there :)
Definitely keep us posted. One of my favorite threads as well. Hoping to contribute with my own house hack story in the near future. Good price for the 4 plex btw!
 
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Red

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Michael Burgess

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wait... you offered them cash but are actually financing the deal?

Made the offer without being conditional on financing, knowing that between mortgage brokers, my money, and money my network / peers have, I'll be able to fully fund the deal on closing day.
 

garyfritz

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I bought the 4plex for $152,500, and close on it at the end of January 2019. It is currently rented to stable tenants that have all been there for over a year, and is producing $2,650 / month in revenue.
Good Lord. Around here (Colorado) I get $1900 rent on a $350k house. If I could get $2500 gross income on a $150k house (20% gross return!!) I would have a dozen of 'em...
 
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@G_Alexander (or @Envision for that matter).
Here's a silly question regarding this.

What if you just don't know where you'd like to live?

Is there any hope in being an absentee owner of a multi-unit,
only living in one of the units a few months out of the year?

This is the #1 thing keeping me from doing this.
I don't want to settle down yet, as my business allows the flexibility to be mobile.

A friend of mine also bounces around to new places every 3ish months, working remotely. He holds the same fears of being "locked in."

On the other hand, It is nice having the ability to invest in any market due to this location independence.

Looking forward to your thoughts.
 

Michael Burgess

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@G_Alexander (or @Envision for that matter).
Here's a silly question regarding this.

What if you just don't know where you'd like to live?

Is there any hope in being an absentee owner of a multi-unit,
only living in one of the units a few months out of the year?

This is the #1 thing keeping me from doing this.
I don't want to settle down yet, as my business allows the flexibility to be mobile.

A friend of mine also bounces around to new places every 3ish months, working remotely. He holds the same fears of being "locked in."

On the other hand, It is nice having the ability to invest in any market due to this location independence.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

For what my two cents are worth, I definitely think that's feasible - if you have a good building, you could pay a property manager a portion (5-10%?) of gross rents, and they would handle all of the operations for you. As long as the difference between your income from the property, and all of the expenses (mortgage, insurance, property manager, utilities, capital expenditures, vacancy allowance, etc..) is big enough... should work!

I think you're also in a strong position to pick a great market because of your location Independence - most people I know just can't think outside of their bubble, because they don't know other cities well, or it's "too far" to deal with it. There's tons of up and coming markets with lots of opportunity if you're willing to travel for it!
 
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G_Alexander

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@G_Alexander (or @Envision for that matter).
Here's a silly question regarding this.

What if you just don't know where you'd like to live?

Is there any hope in being an absentee owner of a multi-unit,
only living in one of the units a few months out of the year?

This is the #1 thing keeping me from doing this.
I don't want to settle down yet, as my business allows the flexibility to be mobile.

A friend of mine also bounces around to new places every 3ish months, working remotely. He holds the same fears of being "locked in."

On the other hand, It is nice having the ability to invest in any market due to this location independence.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

For what my two cents are worth, I definitely think that's feasible - if you have a good building, you could pay a property manager a portion (5-10%?) of gross rents, and they would handle all of the operations for you. =

@UnrealCreative - To do the deal through FHA and preserve your equity capital (i.e. have a lower down payment), you will need to live in the property for 1 year. Then you can move out after that. So you are not "stuck" long term.

People sometimes completely circumvent this by putting the property's bills in their name and never actually 'moving in'. I wouldn't recommend that... but it does happen.

To answer your question directly:
You can either hire a property manager or manage from afar.

I manage from 'afar'. I live in the same city as my 3-flat, and have no one else in charge of it. Even still... I only visit the property 1 or 2 times per year to empty quarters out of the laundry machine. I am thinking about making laundry free and not visiting at all anymore.

Other than that, all I do is extend the leases each year. If someone moves out, I have a real estate brokerage firm list the property and lease it for me. If something breaks, I text a local maintenance guy and he goes and fixes it and sends me a picture after and a bill. My lawn/snow care company goes bi-weekly and cleans the property up and cuts grass or shovels.

Super easy. Very hands off in my personal experience.
 

G_Alexander

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Zenoviy Kovtun

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@UnrealCreative - To do the deal through FHA and preserve your equity capital (i.e. have a lower down payment), you will need to live in the property for 1 year. Then you can move out after that. So you are not "stuck" long term.

People sometimes completely circumvent this by putting the property's bills in their name and never actually 'moving in'. I wouldn't recommend that... but it does happen.

To answer your question directly:
You can either hire a property manager or manage from afar.

I manage from 'afar'. I live in the same city as my 3-flat, and have no one else in charge of it. Even still... I only visit the property 1 or 2 times per year to empty quarters out of the laundry machine. I am thinking about making laundry free and not visiting at all anymore.

Other than that, all I do is extend the leases each year. If someone moves out, I have a real estate brokerage firm list the property and lease it for me. If something breaks, I text a local maintenance guy and he goes and fixes it and sends me a picture after and a bill. My lawn/snow care company goes bi-weekly and cleans the property up and cuts grass or shovels.

Super easy. Very hands off in my personal experience.
@G_Alexander what are you thoughts on interest rates at the moment / the market as a whole? I have spoken with many people who are very concerned with the coming new year etc. And are holding off buying property. Many think we are at the top or close to the top of the market. Is it just a matter of underwriting the property to include these concerns or would it be better to potentially save more capital and remain liquid in anticipation of changes to come? Unfortunately the risk of not taking action at all then exists.
 
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G_Alexander

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@Zenoviy Kovtun Don't worry about timing the market. You will just get stuck on the sidelines doing nothing.

Just ALWAYS focus on the cash flow. If interest rates went to 10% tomorrow, but your property still cash-flowed $1,000 a month - would you pass the deal up? I would hope not.

Rates and prices will always fluctuate. The golden days (2010-2014) are gone. If you want good yields (high cash flow) stick to the up-and-coming hipster areas. Or, if you're SUPER ballsy, buy property in the ghetto. You will cash flow like a M'Fer (but I would NOT recommend that haha).
 

Zenoviy Kovtun

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@Zenoviy Kovtun Don't worry about timing the market. You will just get stuck on the sidelines doing nothing.

Just ALWAYS focus on the cash flow. If interest rates went to 10% tomorrow, but your property still cash-flowed $1,000 a month - would you pass the deal up? I would hope not.

Rates and prices will always fluctuate. The golden days (2010-2014) are gone. If you want good yields (high cash flow) stick to the up-and-coming hipster areas. Or, if you're SUPER ballsy, buy property in the ghetto. You will cash flow like a M'Fer (but I would NOT recommend that haha).
Good insight. Appreciate the feedback! Have been focusing on the up and coming neighborhoods as mentioned, but in a city like Chicago, you know how over priced some of these assets can get. Have looked out for areas that are technically the ghetto but changing haha. As you mention, the cashflow is attractive and price is better but it comes with its own set of risks.
 

Siddhartha

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Extremely interesting thread; what's more interesting is that Nathan Latka seems to have copy-pasted this flow into his new book.

For this process: since foreclosures are the main targets, how much time and investment money is usually needed to fix up a foreclosure to rentable standard? In my area, people have a knack for even ripping out the carpets on their way out.
 
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WJK

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@UnrealCreative - To do the deal through FHA and preserve your equity capital (i.e. have a lower down payment), you will need to live in the property for 1 year. Then you can move out after that. So you are not "stuck" long term.

People sometimes completely circumvent this by putting the property's bills in their name and never actually 'moving in'. I wouldn't recommend that... but it does happen.

To answer your question directly:
You can either hire a property manager or manage from afar.

I manage from 'afar'. I live in the same city as my 3-flat, and have no one else in charge of it. Even still... I only visit the property 1 or 2 times per year to empty quarters out of the laundry machine. I am thinking about making laundry free and not visiting at all anymore.

Other than that, all I do is extend the leases each year. If someone moves out, I have a real estate brokerage firm list the property and lease it for me. If something breaks, I text a local maintenance guy and he goes and fixes it and sends me a picture after and a bill. My lawn/snow care company goes bi-weekly and cleans the property up and cuts grass or shovels.

Super easy. Very hands off in my personal experience.
About FHA. That's a Federal loan program. If you do not live in a property that is financed through that program, it is fraud and the FBI can investigate. Be sure you keep your commitment.

I've never had long distance investing work out for me. Stuff happens. I like being close enough to take care of things. And I've experienced the truism that people tend to cheat, especially when I'm too far away. Good for you IF you can make it work.
 

G_Alexander

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Extremely interesting thread; what's more interesting is that Nathan Latka seems to have copy-pasted this flow into his new book.

For this process: since foreclosures are the main targets, how much time and investment money is usually needed to fix up a foreclosure to rentable standard? In my area, people have a knack for even ripping out the carpets on their way out.
@Siddhartha

How close is his flow to mine? Does it seem like he plagiarized?
 

Siddhartha

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How close is his flow to mine? Does it seem like he plagiarized?

I wouldn't say plagiarize, but it's about a kiss away; he doesn't specify to look at HUD housing/foreclosures but that's the only real difference.
 
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Michael Burgess

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Congrats!! You, my friend, are the reason I wrote this thread. You are on your way to the next level.

Huge fist bump for being an action taker :fistbump:

I just wanted to breathe a bit of life back into this thread, and thank @G_Alexander again for posting this thread. I read it first a couple years ago, and it definitely planted a seed that has taken a long time to germinate... but it FINALLY sprouted!

When I posted last, I got my first 4plex under contract - but went in with an unconditional offer, and next to no money. Needless, to say, there was a *lot* of challenges putting this deal together as a total rookie, but it's closed! I had a couple sleepless nights, some awkward phone calls to make, and a lot of convincing myself I could make it happen. Now that it's done though, I can really see that all of the barriers to owning this property were in my mind, and you can overcome obstacles if you're fully committed.

Here's some details about the building:

4 Unit, yellow brick building built around 1880, in structurally sound shape but outdated and in need of remodeling. Electrical systems are updated, roof and foundation look good, and each unit is separately metered for electricity. Located in Chatham, Ontario.

Purchase price was $156,000. Currently getting wrecked at 10% APR on a private first mortgage, which costs me $1293 / month - but it's still a manageable number, and is a short term solution until I renovate the building and refinance it through a conventional lender. Taxes are about $1,650 / year. Insurance is currently high at $300 / month (including personal coverage), but have new quotes for about $120 / month. Before I took possession, it was generating $2,650 month (and tenants are paying their own hydro). Now that I have the lower unit vacant to renovate, it's grossing $1,750 / month and gives me somewhere to live for basically free.

I figure that over the course of the next year or two, I will be able to remodel the entire home and fix the landscaping. If I spend a total of ~$45,000 on material and subcontractors (I think this number is quite high, but I would like to get this property in fantastic shape), I could see the market value being somewhere around $350,000 - that would be about the 1% rule with updated rents, and is supported by comparable properties in the community.

Either way - this project is exciting as hell for me, and I've got a ton of work to do. I'm trying to get my hands dirty here while also running my contracting business full time, and I just bought a farm property :eek:

Thank you Fastlane brothers and sisters. Keep pushing towards your big goals, work hard, ask for help when you need it, be a good person, and great things can happen.

Stoked!
 

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Guest24480

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It's been four years since I first came across this thread when I was a broke college student. Now that I'm debt free, have 2 years of solid income and a good chunk of change to invest I'm looking into investing in my first multifamily property.

House prices in the area where I am are exorbitantly expensive so I was thinking of moving to an area with a better real estate market. This isn't the only reason, I'm also not a fan of where I'm living at the moment.

I would obviously need to find a new job in that new state so I can get approved for a loan.

Does anyone have experience with moving to a new state, finding employment, AND getting approved for a loan in a short amount of time? Would I need 2 years of income at this new employer or as long as there isn't a huge employment gap it wouldn't matter?
 
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Michael Burgess

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It's been four years since I first came across this thread when I was a broke college student. Now that I'm debt free, have 2 years of solid income and a good chunk of change to invest I'm looking into investing in my first multifamily property.

House prices in the area where I am are exorbitantly expensive so I was thinking of moving to an area with a better real estate market. This isn't the only reason, I'm also not a fan of where I'm living at the moment.

I would obviously need to find a new job in that new state so I can get approved for a loan.

Does anyone have experience with moving to a new state, finding employment, AND getting approved for a loan in a short amount of time? Would I need 2 years of income at this new employer or as long as there isn't a huge employment gap it wouldn't matter?

Take this FWIW, but in Canada I've had brokers tell me as long as you're "in the same line of work" eg. retail to retail, or construction to construction, they're willing to take a new job as a reliable form of income as long as the rest of your picture looks good. Find an investment-oriented mortgage broker and they'll be able to help you craft a good financing story!
 
G

Guest24480

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Take this FWIW, but in Canada I've had brokers tell me as long as you're "in the same line of work" eg. retail to retail, or construction to construction, they're willing to take a new job as a reliable form of income as long as the rest of your picture looks good. Find an investment-oriented mortgage broker and they'll be able to help you craft a good financing story!
I did some additional research on it as well and came to a similar conclusion. For now I'm going to start analyzing deals in my area and see how the numbers play out. Worse comes to worst I gain some valuable experience that I can translate to other areas if I do decide to move. Progress updates to come..
 

meridian_blue

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Hi @G_Alexander, thank you for the post - it adds a ton of value.

Quick question. Do you still recommend looking for multi-units through Hompath/HomeStep? I'm looking at buying in the major metro area I live in, and between these two programs they only have 10 properties listed in my area, all single-family. Also, any other tips for picking location? I know you mentioned looking for the upcoming "hipster" neighborhoods but in my research the prices all seem to reflect that its an open secret that these areas are up and coming.

Thanks again for the thread!
 
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fishgodeep

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Great job @Michael Burgess on stepping up and taking big action. Still can't believe you found a four unit for $156,000. In Edmonton that may get you a shoebox in the ghetto lol.

I've been thinking about investing in a rental property recently and this thread has been gold. Respect to @G_Alexander for dropping knowledge bombs and answering everyone's questions. Also to @SteveO for giving your input, great to hear from someone with a lot of experience.

I started reading this thread a couple of days ago and figured because it was written so long ago it wouldn't be active. But there was a shocking plot twist at the end with @Michael Burgess igniting it again.

Don't have any questions for anyone right now. I've got plenty of my own leg work to do first. Just wanted to thank everyone for their input.......well not quite everyone. I think you all know who I'm referring to .

My plan as of now is to purchase a single family home (in the Edmonton area) live in the basement and rent out the top floor. Or (and this is my true ambition) purchase a multi unit, live in the smallest unit and rent it out. Like many things in life it depends on the financial logistics.

I've set a goal for myself to complete this by Winter 2020. Although I'll be working hard to make this happen sooner. I will keep you all posted.

Thanks again,

Dan
 

JordanK

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I love this thread. Have been living for free for almost 10 months now!
 

The Abundant Man

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Where's the thread for living in places for free internationally? I'm having trouble finding it.
 

fishgodeep

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Where's the thread for living in places for free internationally? I'm having trouble finding it.

I believe this is the one:
 

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