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Does wealth require you to become ruthless?

Paul Schuyler

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Great thread. MJ's contribution is pretty telling, too.

Ask yourself the question as a customer. Was this iPad Pro I just bought created by someone ruthless? If so, did that influence your buying decision? Did you use Google today because the founders are such great guys? Or was your choice based on the quality and value of the thing itself?

I reckon the answer is that you didn't think about it. But if that did enter your mind, most likely you thought "this dude is a first class a**hole and I'll seek other alternatives." Being ruthless might LOSE you business but its unlikely in and of itself to EARN you business. No need to Glengarry Glen Ross everyone, that's a sure way to a nasty surprise when you least expect it. And who would want to live like that with a target on their back, anyway? Seems like a form of mental illness.

Being decisive and in control does not mean that you have to berate others or stick your success in everyone's face.
 
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DavidTT

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Paul Schuyler

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I think another fine example of Dan's approach to being ruthless is Gordon Ramsay. He is textbook perfect of what Dan Pena preaches yet, I guess we can agree that he has seen a tremendous amount of success with that attitude.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjy_FKODsTM


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN-dnznnwOw
Ramsay does have a reputation as a dick though. A raging attitude is good for everyone to not get complacent and let bullshit distract you, there's some positive motivational stuff there. I think Pena's saying, have a super work ethic, disregard convention, and don't be a pussy.

Being ruthless in a kitchen probably makes for a well run kitchen and high standards. But that doesn't make you rich. Being a celebrity known for punchlines might though.

Just because one technique works for some does not mean its a universal necessity. Look at the Silicon Valley billionaires. Most took advantage of a unique opportunity and executed on it, or had a unique strategy, technology, or angle in an exploding market. Musk thinks like a scientist/engineer/entrepreneur. Besos exploited niches and new markets. Jobs was a technology integration genius. There are a lot of reasons out there for all these successes. No need to go Lonny Leaper here, i.e. it doesn't necessarily follow that if you're an a**hole, you will be successful. Heck, we probably all know lots of assholes that aren't successful!
 
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jlwilliams

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I recommend a short book called " principles of personal defense" by Jeff Cooper. It's not a business book per say but it's relevant to this conversation. Cooper was one of the last century's better writers in the shooting world. He was a great shooter, fighter and hunter but more to the point he was educated and articulate. His writing was superb. Anyway, in "principles..." he lays out a few key concepts, ruthlessness among them. He defines the term brilliantly and I submit that his definition fits this context.

Its a great little book. Short, easy to read in one sitting and worth being in anyone's library. My copy is in storage or I'd quote it for this thread. Even if you never plan on protecting your life with violence, the principles apply to all conflict. Conflict is part of life.

I haven't seen the whole movie referenced in the video but I wonder if he means "ruthless" in the way some people are reacting to, or in a way more like Cooper described.

I will look later and try to find my copy or an online copy to quote.
 
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DavidTT

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I recommend a short book called " principles of personal defense" by Jeff Cooper. It's not a business book per say but it's relevant to this conversation. Cooper was one of the last century's better writers in the shooting world. He was a great shooter, fighter and hunter but more to the point he was educated and articulate. His writing was superb. Anyway, in "principles..." he lays out a few key concepts, ruthlessness among them. He defines the term brilliantly and I submit that his definition fits this context.

Its a great little book. Short, easy to read in one sitting and worth being in anyone's library. My copy is in storage or I'd quote it for this thread. Even if you never plan on protecting your life with violence, the principles apply to all conflict. Conflict is part of life.

I haven't seen the whole movie referenced in the video but I wonder if he means "ruthless" in the way some people are reacting to, or in a way more like Cooper described.

I will look later and try to find my copy or an online copy to quote.
I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the recommendation!
 

EvanOkanagan

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I don't believe that success requires you to become ruthless to others.

I believe you need to be ruthless with yourself. Ruthless about the truth of where you are and then ruthless commitment to the change you want to see.

What that means is telling the brutal truth of where you are in life right now, the actual facts. Only from there can you see what your actions have created so far in life and you can stand at a point where you have the ability to change.
 

Process

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Well if you are building a system that provides you with freedom and purpose for the rest of your life... realize it is something only a small fraction of people actually do.

Excuses and extra BS simply are corruptions in your life operating kernel. Root those out. Don't lie to yourself or tolerate it from others. It is silly to depend on people whose actions have detrimental consequences to your purposes.

You can be like coach Wooden from my avatar:
  • set your expectations firmly and upfront
  • live them yourself
  • give one warning
  • dismiss those whose behavior doesn't improve
  • replace them with someone on the same page

You are crafting a system with processes to maximize your greatness. Everything you do must be increasingly congruent to that purpose every waking minute of your life.

Basically have high standards.
 
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TheOrchestrator

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I guess I don't understand why it would need to be looked at like it's an "either / or" thing. I see this as a false dichotomy, when it should be viewed more on a spectrum. The degree of directness and "ruthlessness" that you need to apply in your communication is going to depend on many factors, especially in a global economy where you are communicating with people from various cultures. For instance, in Japanese culture, subtlety and implicity in your communication is much more highly valued and respected than the explicit, direct, in-your-face communication that is more common of those in Western cultures like the USA. Anyone who spends time making business deals with people from cultures around the world will quickly tell you that. I doubt that Dan Pena talks like that to every single person he knows, and like MJ, I doubt that it would work so effectively with consumers and potential business partners today. It's very old school.

It's just basic social intelligence. If you want to get what you want, without having to muscle your way through everyone and everything, damaging relationships unnecessarily, it comes down to knowing what type of communication is appropriate for the current moment. To me, power also implies being skilled in your communication.

If you ask me, while I think that part of how Pena is talking here is him just being himself, I think another part of it is him just putting on a show. Ruthlessness is, like many other things, just a tool. As the saying goes, if all you have is a hammer, then everything just becomes a nail (even when it doesn't need to be).
 

Xeon

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Act nice and generous? Then you get niceness and generosity.

I must respectfully disagree. Being nice and generous = a magnet for attracting assholes aka what I like to refer to as cesspool people.
Speaking from personal experience.

The fact of the matter is that people are sensitive and people tend to give a lot of favor to people who treat them with kindness. It really does work.

Yes, in heaven.

No, actually, it does work. For a while. But when they see that you're always giving and always nice, they start to take advantage of it. This is human nature.

His doctrine heavily focuses on success that is on a level somehow MORE RABID than Fastlane.

A world that transcends even the Fastlane?!!

Based on what GMSI7D has said here, I'm gonna listen to all these Dan Pena's vids and podcasts tonight. It might toughen me up and meld my overly-nice-guy issues into something more assertive and iron-like.


Look at the Silicon Valley billionaires. Most took advantage of a unique opportunity and executed on it, or had a unique strategy, technology, or angle in an exploding market. Musk thinks like a scientist/engineer/entrepreneur. Besos exploited niches and new markets. Jobs was a technology integration genius.

Speaking of silicon valley billionaires, does anyone feel zuckerberg is a ultra-soft nice guy (the type who always gets bullied in the locker room and where no girls want to get near him) who happens to strike it big?

Compared to the more "alpha type" like Mark Cuban, zuckerberg seems like a marshmallow. I respect him for his insane success though.
 

ZF Lee

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A world that transcends even the Fastlane?!!
Not really.

I took a look at Dan Pena's free material.

I still don't understand all of it, but here's what I DO understand.

Pena's method involves finding a fragmented industry, buying up smaller businesses, getting a team of people with better skill and specialisation to staff and run them, and make it into some united conglomerate. Then you can take it public, sell it or just make it a legacy company kind of thing.

When it comes to buying the businesses, one of the sources he mentions would be 'entrepreneurs who want to sell out.'

They could be mom and pop who don't have a child who wants to take over.

They could be an owner who is too old for the work.

Whatever the source is, I'm thinking that in this Forum, we might be looking to make businesses that aren't going to be as big as Amazon or Microsoft. Small to mid-sized businesses. We don't need giant businesses to go UNSCRIPTED .

One of our exit plans would be to sell the business. In this case, Dan Pena-orientated folk would buy our businesses and make them into something bigger. So we are on the producing end, giving them assets to boost.

The mergers and acquisitions part of QLA typically comes later for most founders like Gates and Zuckerberg, when they already had the business up and about. What Dan Pena seems to be showing, is that you COULD skip that part as it might not be mandatory, and be more focused on the financial numbers and due diligence.

QLA is hard to execute, but it does play a role in the economy.
 
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Xeon

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DavidTT

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Not really.

I took a look at Dan Pena's free material.

I still don't understand all of it, but here's what I DO understand.

Pena's method involves finding a fragmented industry, buying up smaller businesses, getting a team of people with better skill and specialisation to staff and run them, and make it into some united conglomerate. Then you can take it public, sell it or just make it a legacy company kind of thing.

When it comes to buying the businesses, one of the sources he mentions would be 'entrepreneurs who want to sell out.'

They could be mom and pop who don't have a child who wants to take over.

They could be an owner who is too old for the work.

Whatever the source is, I'm thinking that in this Forum, we might be looking to make businesses that aren't going to be as big as Amazon or Microsoft. Small to mid-sized businesses. We don't need giant businesses to go UNSCRIPTED .

One of our exit plans would be to sell the business. In this case, Dan Pena-orientated folk would buy our businesses and make them into something bigger. So we are on the producing end, giving them assets to boost.

The mergers and acquisitions part of QLA typically comes later for most founders like Gates and Zuckerberg, when they already had the business up and about. What Dan Pena seems to be showing, is that you COULD skip that part as it might not be mandatory, and be more focused on the financial numbers and due diligence.

QLA is hard to execute, but it does play a role in the economy.
I actually read his book and by his material, he basically did 22 acquisitions in a period of 8 years. His biggest one was an energy company in Canada (forget the name) which they acquired for $139 million. Long story short, he says that QLA (growth by acquisitions) is the fastest way to grow a business and all the big players do it.

I think there's some truth to it too. If you look at Amazon's list of acquisition, it's huge!!!
 

I AM THE SENATE

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So I was watching this video from London Real about Dan Pena and he did mention something interesting:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRNeCnfAq_M


I noticed that a lot of times in work or in life generally, I did have to be harsh in order to get things done. Back when I was a supervisor at a valet company, I tried being nice to everyone but that would eventually lead to everyone abusing and not doing their jobs properly (always late, extra long breaks, harassing other employees etc) whereas, when I was being a real d*ck, things would get done.

That being said, is it true that we have to become ruthless in order to gain wealth?


If you are trying to be a hardass and you are the person who is always late, taking extra long breaks, leaving a mess and harassing coworkers while trying to be their boss, prepare for a bad time. My slowlane boss is this sort of hypocrite and no one respects him either above or below in the food chain. He's also a suck up and a bootlicker. He tries to be ruthless and demanding but nobody cares or listens or obeys because he's weak. People follow leaders they respect. You can be a dick but being a dick and being a shitty employee means you're just a dick nobody listens to.
 
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Zachary Kirkland

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I have seen that in business when it comes to the acquisition of a company or in sales the person leading has to be driven. Driven to their end game goal, some would call this ruthless and others would call this highly motivated. Not all businesses I believe have to be ruthless to be successful but you must be motivated to reach your goals though. I do not agree that you have to be ruthless to be management, you have to be able to set the standards and keep the standards mandatory to streamline the work flow.
 

SteveO

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If you are good at your business, you can evaluate and make decisions based on fact. There are many ways to negotiate. I don't respond well to the other party acting as a bully. In fact, I have pulled out of negotiations for the simple reason that the other side was an a**hole. Not because I did not enjoy working with him. It is possible to let the emotions go by without letting them affect the process. I let it go because there was a long way to go in the process and it did not look like the finalization was going to work out. His harsh actions made a strong statement.

I once had an apartment building for sale. The basic understood rule is a potential buyer does not identify themselves to the tenants as a potential buyer until there is a solid contract. It will usually cause a premature stir in the community.

One guy not only identified himself but told one of the residents that he was buying the property. He then told the tenant to let him in to his apartment. I caught wind of this from the tenant who was very upset. When the guy made his offer, I rejected it and told him that he would not be a buyer of this property.

So it can work both ways. Being ruthless to a ruthless person may backfire. :)

It really comes down to your own confidence and abilities. Gain knowledge and/or get good at your business. You can have tactics to help you but that does not mean being ruthless.
 

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