If Your Business Runs on the Internet, Read This.

[Deleted50669]

I'll leave it at that.

FCC is expected to unveil its plan to destroy net neutrality during Thanksgiving week

 

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[MoreVolume]

i dont see how this will effect my business

 

[JAJT]

i dont see how this will effect my business

It theoretically would change the entire user experience as it's known today.

Imagine if you lost 40% of your potential customer base because those users didn't opt in for the "streaming" or "shopping" package from their ISP. Imagine trying to advertise in a world where you have to worry if your potential customers have the "facebook and youtube" add-ons to their internet packages?

Put another way - net neutrality states that all data should be treated equally. 40 gigs of video is the same as 40 gigs of shopping is the same as 40 gigs of blog browsing is the same as 40 gigs of news consumption.

Right now, ISPs have plans that are based on speed and data. It doesn't matter what you access or how much of it you access - just stay in the data limit you have and they will deliver it at the speed you subscribe to.

Without net neutrality, data can be weighted and portioned however the ISPs want. The scariest is the "plan" option I mentioned above. News is free but access to shopping data sources costs extra. You can get shopping and news but streaming is $1 per MB unless you have a plan. Etc...

 

[JAJT]

Here's a scary graphic.

It's almost certainly a mock up to sensationalize the problem but it gets the point across:

 

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[MoreVolume]

It theoretically would change the entire user experience as it's known today.

Imagine if you lost 40% of your potential customer base because those users didn't opt in for the "streaming" or "shopping" package from their ISP. Imagine trying to advertise in a world where you have to worry if your potential customers have the "facebook and youtube" add-ons to their internet packages?

Put another way - net neutrality states that all data should be treated equally. 40 gigs of video is the same as 40 gigs of shopping is the same as 40 gigs of blog browsing is the same as 40 gigs of news consumption.

Right now, ISPs have plans that are based on speed and data. It doesn't matter what you access or how much of it you access - just stay in the data limit you have and they will deliver it at the speed you subscribe to.

Without net neutrality, data can be weighted and portioned however the ISPs want. The scariest is the "plan" option I mentioned above. News is free but access to shopping data sources costs extra. You can get shopping and news but streaming is $1 per MB unless you have a plan. Etc...

I didn’t know it was that deep
Damn

 

[c_morris]

Here's a scary graphic.

It's almost certainly a mock up to sensationalize the problem but it gets the point across:

2 Questions:
How does this affect users outside of the US?
Do ISP's have to structure their plans this way? Meaning, Can Joe Blow Internet still operate neutrally?

 

[JAJT]

How does this affect users outside of the US?
Do ISP's have to structure their plans this way? Meaning, Can Joe Blow Internet still operate neutrally?

Best guesses:

1. I'm fairly certain other countries are free to operate however they like, however there is no denying the importance of the USA's internet user base in the global economy, nor the possibility of other countries copying the USA's lead.

2. The problem is there is no "Joe Blow Internet", especially not in the USA (to my knowledge, I'm Canadian, so this is all hear-say). The big companies in the USA OWN the infrastructure. Comcast isn't going to let "Joe Blow Internet" piggy back on their network and undercut them while they are at it with better plans, features, and options. In Canada we DO have some smaller companies piggy backing on the big networks but I'm fairly certain (not positive) it was only allowed through legislation which opened up the infrastructure to competition. My ISP for example (Teksavvy) is a small fry that piggy backs on the big guy's (Rogers) physical lines. They offer better plans, better prices, and better service than Rogers even though it's on their lines. I'm not sure how possible this is in the USA. With the push to kill Net Neutrality I can only imagine it's specifically because this kind of arrangement isn't possible.

The simple problem is that laying a country-wide (or even city wide) network of underground cables for internet infrastructure isn't possible for the "little guys". It's a huge construction and infrastructure project that only a very, very small few companies (like google with their fiber) are even in a position to attempt.

 

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[ApparentHorizon]

Best guesses:

1. I'm fairly certain other countries are free to operate however they like, however there is no denying the importance of the USA's internet user base in the global economy, nor the possibility of other countries copying the USA's lead.

2. The problem is there is no "Joe Blow Internet", especially not in the USA (to my knowledge, I'm Canadian, so this is all hear-say). The big companies in the USA OWN the infrastructure. Comcast isn't going to let "Joe Blow Internet" piggy back on their network and undercut them while they are at it with better plans, features, and options. In Canada we DO have some smaller companies piggy backing on the big networks but I'm fairly certain (not positive) it was only allowed through legislation which opened up the infrastructure to competition. My ISP for example (Teksavvy) is a small fry that piggy backs on the big guy's (Rogers) physical lines. They offer better plans, better prices, and better service than Rogers even though it's on their lines. I'm not sure how possible this is in the USA. With the push to kill Net Neutrality I can only imagine it's specifically because this kind of arrangement isn't possible.

The simple problem is that laying a country-wide (or even city wide) network of underground cables for internet infrastructure isn't possible for the "little guys". It's a huge construction and infrastructure project that only a very, very small few companies (like google with their fiber) are even in a position to attempt.

I'm not sure about small companies opening up shop, but small towns do build their own infrastructure when none/limited is available.

Ex: you'll have areas that are not hooked up and the town gov't votes to bring internet into all homes. Once the town builds the lines, the big ISPs will come in and sue for usage rights, and even go as far as to make it illegal for the town to offer its own internet.

The big ISPs essentially have monopolies in their territories, with a facade of competition. You'll have 1 major provider with the best value speed/cost. Then there's 1-2 others who have the worst rates you've ever seen.

The push for repealing NN is 2 fold:
1. Control over the flow of information (See Google's new news algorithm that filters out opinions they don't like)
2. Double dipping and charging content providers for a fast lane (See Tencent (owners of League of Legends) deal with Comcast and other ISPs)

Here's a scary graphic.

It's almost certainly a mock up to sensationalize the problem but it gets the point across:

Portugal is way ahead of us...

 

[LeoistheSun]

Any ISP knows better than to cross the big three: FB, Goog, Appl.

However theoretically FB could pay Comcast to suppress Snapchat. Or a competitor for that matter.

However you could use a VPN.

 

[Deleted50669]

Any ISP knows better than to cross the big three: FB, Goog, Appl.

However theoretically FB could pay Comcast to suppress Snapchat. Or a competitor for that matter.

However you could use a VPN.

VPN would be the solution in theory, but enough people will try that that they will be vigilant in combating it.

 

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[LeoistheSun]

VPN would be the solution in theory, but enough people will try that that they will be vigilant in combating it.

TOR then

 

[Charnell]

Any ISP knows better than to cross the big three: FB, Goog, Appl.

Are you serious? The reason none of the big players are lobbying against or making a fuss about it is that they'll benefit massively from this. If Comcast says "Hey, we'll include you in our regular package for $1M a year," Facebook, Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. will have no problem paying for it. That startup trying to compete with them will.

Operating an ecommerce store's cost will rival brick and mortar stores, and that's just so you have a chance of people finding/getting to your website.

Additionally, there are 5 major players which are in the works to monopolize the remaining areas of the United States with no/poor internet access. The super-rural areas. You would be hard-pressed to find an ISP anywhere in the US that isn't co-owned by Verizon, Comcast, AT&T, Time Warner, or Charter.

 

[Deleted50669]

TOR then

*subtle nod*

 

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[LeoistheSun]

Are you serious? The reason none of the big players are lobbying against or making a fuss about it is that they'll benefit massively from this. If Comcast says "Hey, we'll include you in our regular package for $1M a year," Facebook, Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. will have no problem paying for it. That startup trying to compete with them will.

Operating an ecommerce store's cost will rival brick and mortar stores, and that's just so you have a chance of people finding/getting to your website.

Additionally, there are 5 major players which are in the works to monopolize the remaining areas of the United States with no/poor internet access. The super-rural areas. You would be hard-pressed to find an ISP anywhere in the US that isn't co-owned by Verizon, Comcast, AT&T, Time Warner, or Charter.

Google has come out against it.

 

[JAJT]

VPN would be the solution in theory, but enough people will try that that they will be vigilant in combating it.

Netflix effectively (to my surprise) combatted VPN usage on their service by banning huge swaths of known IP address ranges from the major VPN providers. Nobody thought they could do a damn thing to stop it, until they did.

I'm not familiar enough with TOR to know if it's possible to lock it out in a similar fashion.

Portugal is way ahead of us...

That's actually the photo I WANTED to share, but couldn't find it. For those curious - this is a real pricing page for a real ISP in Portugal from my understanding.

 

[Charnell]

Google has come out against it.

"We're against it" is different than acting against it.

 

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[LeoistheSun]

VPN would be the solution in theory, but enough people will try that that they will be vigilant in combating it.

Besides, while most VPNs use IPv4, switching to IPv6 would solve that problem. Specially if you had thousands of rotating IPs.

Or use proxies.

 

[c4n]

Portugal is way ahead of us...

That picture is a bit misleading in the context. Portugal has net neutrality, the whole European Union has it.

Those are extra plans you can buy for mobile data only, so that bandwidth used by those services/apps does not count towards your account data.

Example: if your mobile plan allows 1GB of data transfer, you can add "Social" to your mobile data plan for EUR 4.99/month and you get 10GB extra data to be used by social apps which will not count towards your 1GB monthly limit.


That said, internet neutrality IS an alarming issue. Data over the internet is sent in small chunks ("data packets"; groups of bytes if you will). With a neutral internet all data packets are transferred on a "first comes first serves" basis.

Without internet neutrality, large companies would pay an ISP to give their data packets priority. In practice this would mean that Netflix would pay ISP and in return their service would work much faster than other streaming providers that didn't pay for packet priority. Amazon would pay them so their shop loads faster than other shops (they wouldn't be able to shut them down, just have priority traffic).

It puts large companies at an additional advantage because if you are starting out and can't throw money at the ISP, your website will work slower than those with priority traffic. And we all know 1-2 seconds faster loading time (or better streaming) can make a huge difference.

 

[ZF Lee]

I am wondering if loss of net neutrality may affect cryptocurencies, which rely heavily on the Internet, in any way.

Does it? Might it hamper Bitcoin development and transactions?

 

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[c4n]

I am wondering if loss of net neutrality may affect cryptocurencies, which rely heavily on the Internet, in any way.

Does it? Might it hamper Bitcoin development and transactions?

Absolutely; loss of net neutrality would give ISPs free hands to throttle (or even disable) P2P data packets which would not only affect cryptos, but also other decentralized and/or P2P protocols, such as bittorrent.

You would then have to transition to using cryptos on top of Tor for example. This adds an extra layer of complexity thus making them less mainstream (how many people know/use Tor and VPNs?).

Some extra reading:
New FCC Rules Could Block Your E-Wallet
Could Eroding Net Neutrality Hurt Bitcoin?

 

[ZF Lee]

Absolutely; loss of net neutrality would give ISPs free hands to throttle (or even disable) P2P data packets which would not only affect cryptos, but also other decentralized and/or P2P protocols, such as bittorrent.

You would then have to transition to using cryptos on top of Tor for example. This adds an extra layer of complexity thus making them less mainstream (how many people know/use Tor and VPNs?).

Some extra reading:
New FCC Rules Could Block Your E-Wallet
Could Eroding Net Neutrality Hurt Bitcoin?

Well F*ck. Paypal? Online credit cards? Are they also hit?
I'm not into Bitcoin actively, but it does discourage a good deal of business works.

Why aren't we all panicking? Why aren't we making a whoo-hah about this? No bluster?
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been on RED ALERT or notable, @MJ DeMarco.

 

[c4n]

Well F*ck. Paypal? Online credit cards? Are they also hit?
I'm not into Bitcoin actively, but it does discourage a good deal of business works.

Why aren't we all panicking? Why aren't we making a whoo-hah about this? No bluster?
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been on RED ALERT or notable, @MJ DeMarco.

Note that this is not some world-wide law, but US legislation. Some countries have strong net neutrality laws (especially in Europe) while some countries have fully regulated/censured internet (think China, North Korea, Iran, ...). It could potentially effect everyone who does business in the US though.

Unfortunately, many people see net neutrality as a footstep for the US government to start regulating the internet while in reality net neutrality is the opposite - it doesn't allow anyone to decide/control which data is important and which not. I don't blame them for not trusting the government though.

If net neutrality gets flushed down the toilet it doesn't mean things will immediately blow up, we are talking worst-case scenarios here (but plausible nonetheless). It means ISP in the US will have free hands to decide what data they will give priority to and possibly start charging for access to websites/type of services.

Honestly, I don't think any ISP would go as far as blocking popular sites as it would make their service useless (although they tried to do that before, see Google Wallet mention in the links I posted). But net neutrality is one of the foundations of the free and open internet.

 

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[luniac]

so theoretically this opens up the door for some billionaire to build their own internet infrastructure and offer net neutrality?

 

[c4n]

Sure, because 99.9% of internet users have no idea what net neutrality is and they will see great value in having another line dug in their backyard.

 

[kkoasdfawfqwe2]

Note that this is not some world-wide law, but US legislation. Some countries have strong net neutrality laws (especially in Europe) while some countries have fully regulated/censured internet (think China, North Korea, Iran, ...). It could potentially effect everyone who does business in the US though.

Unfortunately, many people see net neutrality as a footstep for the US government to start regulating the internet while in reality net neutrality is the opposite - it doesn't allow anyone to decide/control which data is important and which not. I don't blame them for not trusting the government though.

If net neutrality gets flushed down the toilet it doesn't mean things will immediately blow up, we are talking worst-case scenarios here (but plausible nonetheless). It means ISP in the US will have free hands to decide what data they will give priority to and possibly start charging for access to websites/type of services.

Honestly, I don't think any ISP would go as far as blocking popular sites as it would make their service useless (although they tried to do that before, see Google Wallet mention in the links I posted). But net neutrality is one of the foundations of the free and open internet.

I am fairly sure that if banks are threatened enough about the decentralized currencies getting to power, they would see this as a great opportunity to pay ISPs to remove, slowdown or block this completely.

This is why I wouldn't count such a thing out completely.

Banks do also generally have a pretty good amount of cash to make these kind of investments.

I am just happy to be sitting here overseas in Europe all of a sudden.

 

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[Xeon]

Why aren't we all panicking? Why aren't we making a whoo-hah about this? No bluster?
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been on RED ALERT or notable, @MJ DeMarco.

I'm even more surprised there aren't a nation-wide street protest going on in the US, considering the wide and far ranging effects of this NN issue.

 

[Kingmaker]

I'm even more surprised there aren't a nation-wide street protest going on in the US, considering the wide and far ranging effects of this NN issue.

There are protests, on December 7th: Team Internet Event Map

 

[100k]

 

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