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Need some information | FOREX Trading

V8Bill

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Anything that is easy to get in to, is easy to lose money at. That is part of the design. Forex brokers make their money how, and from whom? You should answer that before you open an account. I'll give you a hint: YOU
Service providers are everywhere in every single business sector. It's no argument against trading or business that someone else might make money off charging you to provide a service. I don't care how much a broker makes providing me with a platform to trade. I hope they make millions off me.
 
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loop101

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Service providers are everywhere in every single business sector. It's no argument against trading or business that someone else might make money off charging you to provide a service. I don't care how much a broker makes providing me with a platform to trade. I hope they make millions off me.

I'm not arguing, I'm stating the fact that Forex brokers hold the other side of every trade their customer's take. If the customer makes money, the broker loses money. That is a fact. That is the fact. It's how Forex markets work, as opposed to the Futures market, or stock market. Not only are they your bank, broker, and competitor, they can also see very trade and every stop you have open. I disagree that it is 100% irrelevant. I think it is the most relevant fact about Forex trading.

Nowadays you can open a Forex account for $10. Do you think those services are aimed at professionals? No, they are aimed at sheep. If they didn't want sheep for customers, they wouldn't make them available for $10.

I am speaking only about the Forex industry, not other industries.
 

V8Bill

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Yeah they might for some of the smaller trades but so what? Are you suggesting they will move hundreds of millions of dollars into the market to move a candle up a few pips to wipe out a $10 account?

I love when people revert to calling people sheep.
 

loop101

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There are Forex trading sites where you can let people manage your money, or subscribe to their signals, etc. There are people that make a lot of money selling signals to other people on those sites.

On the Collective2 site, there was a Forex system a friend was telling me about, called "strawberry rhubarb". I looked at its return at the time, and saw he was making a bunch of small profitable trades. In my view, that put him in the "make a lot of little trades, with the occasional BSE" camp. No surprise, he went bust. I'm sure he made a lot of money selling his signal, as he was listed as the most profitable FX vendor on C2 at the time.

If you look at his chart, you will see how he did well for a while, took a massive loss, then repeated that, until he gave up. C2 says the system is "This strategy is longer supported by its creator", no doubt.

[GALLERY=media, 63]Strawberry by loop101 posted Sep 4, 2017 at 10:35 PM[/GALLERY]

These sites are full of these guys. The better sites wont let them delete their track records, but they still come back under different names.
 
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loop101

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Yeah they might for some of the smaller trades but so what? Are you suggesting they will move hundreds of millions of dollars into the market to move a candle up a few pips to wipe out a $10 account?

I love when people revert to calling people sheep.

No need to get emotional.
 

V8Bill

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Year, there are a lots of people selling signals who shouldn't be selling them. Also a lot who resell signals (I've busted a few because I was subscribed to both). In the end I use my own common sense and what I see. I take them as suggestions. My biggest success has been private traders but I've also had some good luck with a few signal sellers who might have good technical skills but no understanding of dynamic sizing and so don't capitalise on their skills. I'm happy to use their skills and apply my own sizing and control. I'm always trying new sellers though - just in case I find a lazy genius.
 

V8Bill

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No need to get emotional.
lol...yes, sometimes there is. Throwing around terms like sheep paints everyone who opens a small account with the same brush and shows your contempt. Unnecessary. Your point isn't valid or relevant. Dealers allow people to open small accounts (the minimum is usually in the hundreds to open an account) so they can make a commission. I can't see anything wrong with that. I'm well aware that dealers have A and B clients. They'll absorb the smaller losing accounts in their own bank and keep the loses (I'd do the same) but when a trader starts winning and trading larger amounts they offset to the market. I don't have a problem with that.
 
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loop101

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lol...yes, sometimes there is. Throwing around terms like sheep paints everyone who opens a small account with the same brush and shows your contempt. Unnecessary. Your point isn't valid or relevant. Dealers allow people to open small accounts (the minimum is usually in the hundreds to open an account) so they can make a commission. I can't see anything wrong with that. I'm well aware that dealers have A and B clients. They'll absorb the smaller losing accounts in their own bank and keep the loses (I'd do the same) but when a trader starts winning and trading larger amounts they offset to the market. I don't have a problem with that.

It seems important to you that I am wrong. I can't help with that. I'm only "arguing" with you so that people can read these posts in the future, and learn about Forex.

My point was that they make it easy for amateurs to open accounts, because it is easy money for the brokers. You say the brokers wouldn't move the markets to take out a $10 account. Your response has nothing to do with what I said. When you take a position in Forex, you pay the spread to the broker. You are losing money as soon as you take a position. The broker doesn't have to move the market anywhere. If you try scalping during the slow hours, its very easy to lose all your money on trades that you thought were "break even".

I stand corrected on the minimum amount required to open a Forex account. It's not $10. It's zero dollars. Per the Oanda site: "There is no minimum deposit or minimum balance required to open or maintain an OANDA account. You only need make sure to have enough balance to open positions of sizes you are comfortable with."
 

V8Bill

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It seems important to you that I am wrong.
Not at all. That's just your perception. My only interest is in making sure that people reading this thread hear from someone who's actually doing it daily and believes it can be a profitable exercise (given care and understanding) of what they're getting into. I hear comments/myths like some that you're making all the time and you're not saying things that are always relevant or correct. I have an interest in correcting incorrect statements, dismissing irrelevant statements and making sure people get a real view on Forex trading which I do every day.

When you take a position in Forex, you pay the spread to the broker. You are losing money as soon as you take a position.
Not always true. I don't pay spread, I pay commission. I know the cost up front and have no problem paying it. It's just like any other business that has expenses.

I stand corrected on the minimum amount required to open a Forex account. It's not $10. It's zero dollars.
You do stand corrected. IC Markets (my dealer) has a minimum initial deposit of $200 but you can trade microlots (.01 or a $2-$3 bet). That's my real world experience. Traders have a choice so it's not really necessary to paint it all out as being scary and horrifically unfair. I find the opposite to be true and I'm sharing my opinion based on my real world daily experience.
 

Sequential

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I have 2 experiences trading, both were negative.

1. I found in my experience that the demo account (I used bullbearings) performed completely differently to the real world.

2. I found that trading houses using computers to trade automatically with a super low ping were ruining the market for everyone else, otherwise known as high frequency trading (HFT). Michael Lewis even wrote a book on it, companies spending billions to get their computers in the same cabinet as the exchange so they get less latency and make more money.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393351599/?tag=tff-amazonparser-20
 
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V8Bill

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companies spending billions to get their computers in the same cabinet as the exchange so they get less latency and make more money.
I have a rented computer within 3 miles of the NY exchange so I can get a 2ms ping (sometimes better). It's not that expensive (quite affordable actually) and I run some automatic trading scripts off it. It's all within grasp of the normal trader if they wish and it does make a difference. It trades really fast and has made up to 5 pips difference from a copy trading local machine that just couldn't keep up. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I chose to join 'em.

You're right about the demo accounts. The dealers put them on the slowest connections and aside from the wrong use (they should be used to test new strategies - not learn real life trading) they can be slower and have frequent stops in trading.
 

loop101

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Not at all. That's just your perception. My only interest is in making sure that people reading this thread hear from someone who's actually doing it daily and believes it can be a profitable exercise (given care and understanding) of what they're getting into. I hear comments/myths like some that you're making all the time and you're not saying things that are always relevant or correct. I have an interest in correcting incorrect statements, dismissing irrelevant statements and making sure people get a real view on Forex trading which I do every day.


Not always true. I don't pay spread, I pay commission. I know the cost up front and have no problem paying it. It's just like any other business that has expenses.


You do stand corrected. IC Markets (my dealer) has a minimum initial deposit of $200 but you can trade microlots (.01 or a $2-$3 bet). That's my real world experience. Traders have a choice so it's not really necessary to paint it all out as being scary and horrifically unfair. I find the opposite to be true and I'm sharing my opinion based on my real world daily experience.

In your competition with your broker, who determines your Fill Price?

That is about as simple as I can put it.
 

V8Bill

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I don't care - which is about as simple as I can put it. I press buy and it buys. I press sell and it sells, I press exit and it exits. I don't care about a few cents when I'm making thousands. I look at the big picture which is trying to get the trade right. That's all I focus on. I don't care if the dealer makes a few cents or dollars in fees - I welcome it. I don't fixate on turning a positive into a negative just because I don't want anyone else to make any money at all off something I'm making money on. I don't see the point - sorry.
 
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loop101

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I look at the big picture which is trying to get the trade right. That's all I focus on.

If you are only focused on getting the trade right, you are missing the bigger picture. I would suggest you look in to using random entries if you want to focus on the big picture.
 

V8Bill

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Ok, so trying to get the trade right isn't important. Got it. Thank you so much for your advice.
 

loop101

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Ok, so trying to get the trade right isn't important. Got it. Thank you so much for your advice.

I didn't say it was not important. I said it wasn't the bigger picture, which it is not. The bigger picture is being able to come back the next day. Or do you want to argue against that?

You continue to play word-games, which I don't think is helpful. It turns the discussion in to sophistry. When I say you can open an account for $10, and you say that's not true because your broker charges $200, I don't even know what to say to that. It's a waste of our time.

Using random entries liberates you from focusing too much on entering the trade, and allows you to focus on when you make your money (or loss) - which is when you exit the trade. More importantly, it forces you to look at money-management instead of profit-maximizing. It allows you to operate at a higher level, in the "bigger picture".

I don't expect you will take anything I say seriously, but I was being serious when I suggested random entries. You may find it a more enjoyable way to scalp ticks. If you are unfamiliar with it, here are some links:

Don't Neglect Your Exits

"In our opinion exits are much more important than entries yet the majority of new traders spend most of their time seeking the ideal entry strategy as if the entry determined the outcome of the trade."

Computer Simulation Suggests That The Best Investment Strategy Is A Random One

"There are lot of different opinions on what the best investment strategy is. Roughly as many as there are investors, probably. But there's now a fascinating line of research that suggests that the best strategy for investment isn't any kind of plan at all. Rather, the authors of a new study suggest, the best way to invest is to invest randomly."

The 10 Biggest Trading Myth That Just Won’t Die

"Trading Myth #1 — Entries are the most important"
 
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Blackadder

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What do you when you lose your internet connection while watching a trade? I mean completely lose access to the internet, for hours or days.

Most brokers have apps for smartphones nowadays, I use Nadex which has its own app and evolve markets which has an mt4 app on the phone....both great for getting out of a trade should the power go out.

(Side note for americans...evolve markets has Leverage up to 1:500 and you fund in bitcoins under an email only.....like an old fashioned swiss numbered account, take from that what you will.)
 

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I've been casually reading through this thread, but didn't really have anything to comment on. I traded foreign exchange back in 2004 and then I did some futures trading in 2011. Trading is a difficult endeavor, but it can be managed if one doesn't go at it with the intention of making millions of dollars in one day. The idea should be that you find your edge, create your system, and then trade your 'signals.' If you have a system that is profitable 70% of the time, but you're only taking 10% of the signals, you're going to have a bad time and say it's too hard.

Secondly, I found the best angle to take is that you think about a daily goal and then you stop trading when you reach that -- unless the trade is wildly in your favor. If you try to profit $10 million a year, you may always feel like you're behind. If you try to profit $100 per day, you are setting smaller goals that are more achievable. Even on a smaller account, maybe you go for $5 or $10. Whatever. I learned this a little too late and never got ahead. String a bunch of wins together and you're going to make a ton of money.

The great thing is that if you can trade 1 lot, you can trade 2 lots. And if you can trade 2 lots, you can trade 3 lots. It's hugely scaleable. Then, before you know it, you'll be trading an amount that actually affects the fills you get! What a great problem to have!

I'm just going to leave a few resources here:

I'm a huge fan of trading on Price Action using Support and Resistance zones. I highly recommend the book, "Reading Price Charts Bar By Bar," by Al Brooks.
For some mindset issues, "Trading In the Zone" and "The Disciplined Trader" by Mark Douglas.
Lastly, read through this thread regarding Forex Price Action: Forex Price Action
I'm not sure you'll find a better resource on how to trade foreign exchange. It took me awhile to find because they redesigned the website so I wasn't familiar with what it looked like. Anyway, it is the most viewed thread on that forum with 5.2M views. Once you get an idea of what he is teaching, you can tailor it to your own trading. If I got back into trading foreign exchange, I would probably do what he teaches. I actually set up a demo account a couple years ago when I was going through it and made some profitable trades. I got bored with it after awhile, though, because it wasn't real money.

All of this talk of day trading is getting me amped up. I loved it when I did it, but I could never get past the psychological hurdles. I was using money I didn't need, but it was money I didn't want to lose. I will probably get back into it some day. Maybe I'll get into the micro-lots when I have the time and focus to dedicate toward it.

And, just as a short disclaimer, I've traded stocks, foreign exchange, crude oil futures, foreign exchange futures, the e-mini S&P. I've made every mistake in the book. I almost lost $8,000 in one trade in 2004 because I traded minutes before a Fed meeting and the EURUSD bounced around like a pinball machine. I still don't know how I didn't get a margin call. Don't do that! :)
 

ALC

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I've been casually reading through this thread, but didn't really have anything to comment on. I traded foreign exchange back in 2004 and then I did some futures trading in 2011. Trading is a difficult endeavor, but it can be managed if one doesn't go at it with the intention of making millions of dollars in one day. The idea should be that you find your edge, create your system, and then trade your 'signals.' If you have a system that is profitable 70% of the time, but you're only taking 10% of the signals, you're going to have a bad time and say it's too hard.

Secondly, I found the best angle to take is that you think about a daily goal and then you stop trading when you reach that -- unless the trade is wildly in your favor. If you try to profit $10 million a year, you may always feel like you're behind. If you try to profit $100 per day, you are setting smaller goals that are more achievable. Even on a smaller account, maybe you go for $5 or $10. Whatever. I learned this a little too late and never got ahead. String a bunch of wins together and you're going to make a ton of money.

The great thing is that if you can trade 1 lot, you can trade 2 lots. And if you can trade 2 lots, you can trade 3 lots. It's hugely scaleable. Then, before you know it, you'll be trading an amount that actually affects the fills you get! What a great problem to have!

I'm just going to leave a few resources here:

I'm a huge fan of trading on Price Action using Support and Resistance zones. I highly recommend the book, "Reading Price Charts Bar By Bar," by Al Brooks.
For some mindset issues, "Trading In the Zone" and "The Disciplined Trader" by Mark Douglas.
Lastly, read through this thread regarding Forex Price Action: Forex Price Action
I'm not sure you'll find a better resource on how to trade foreign exchange. It took me awhile to find because they redesigned the website so I wasn't familiar with what it looked like. Anyway, it is the most viewed thread on that forum with 5.2M views. Once you get an idea of what he is teaching, you can tailor it to your own trading. If I got back into trading foreign exchange, I would probably do what he teaches. I actually set up a demo account a couple years ago when I was going through it and made some profitable trades. I got bored with it after awhile, though, because it wasn't real money.

All of this talk of day trading is getting me amped up. I loved it when I did it, but I could never get past the psychological hurdles. I was using money I didn't need, but it was money I didn't want to lose. I will probably get back into it some day. Maybe I'll get into the micro-lots when I have the time and focus to dedicate toward it.

And, just as a short disclaimer, I've traded stocks, foreign exchange, crude oil futures, foreign exchange futures, the e-mini S&P. I've made every mistake in the book. I almost lost $8,000 in one trade in 2004 because I traded minutes before a Fed meeting and the EURUSD bounced around like a pinball machine. I still don't know how I didn't get a margin call. Don't do that! :)
Many thanks for the advice ;) I'm looking at his Forex Price Action thread, it look interesting!
 
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Sequential

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You know there is probably a good business idea buried in this thread. It seems to ring true that demo accounts don't match the real world so why not create a demo account that does match the real world? If it was run standalone ie not by a trading company there would be no incentive to make things look easier than they really are.

As for trading itself, surely it is slowlane given what people say about affiliate marketing which is not based on luck like forex is.
 

bringitnow28329

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You know there is probably a good business idea buried in this thread. It seems to ring true that demo accounts don't match the real world so why not create a demo account that does match the real world? If it was run standalone ie not by a trading company there would be no incentive to make things look easier than they really are.

As for trading itself, surely it is slowlane given what people say about affiliate marketing which is not based on luck like forex is.


Somebody already tried to do this with a "stock market game" which used real time data and the SEC shut them down about a year and a half ago. I think if you could set something up and convince people to pay for your paper trading service, then maybe you could offer this, however the problem is the players (NSADAQ, NYSE, etc) in this industry are extremely greedy and charge a lot of money for real time price data. People may think real time data is free because they go to google or yahoo finance and get free real time quotes but the reality is these companies subsidize the price of this data. The same goes for a broker that provides it's customers free quotes but real time data cost a lot of money. It's hard to convince people to pay $50-100 a month for a paper trading platform but that is what would be required.

The thing about paper trading is that it lacks the psychological and emotional aspects of trading. You can have a profitable system but unless it's automated or you program your brain to have the discipline required to stick to it, you have an infinitely small chance of being successful. This takes at least a few years and it's possible to go a whole life time and never get it. Most people never stay in the game long enough to actually start profiting consistently due to poor risk management or just giving up.
 

ALC

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Definitly more difficult than i thought
 
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