Ideas on creating a Chemical Product.

[KDickson]

Hello Fastlane,

Been lurking for a few months and I finally have a need to branch out and fish for ideas on how to move forward. I have a product idea that will be canned and applied to articles of clothing. The idea itself still needs to be tested as I'm not entirely sure if what I want it to do is even possible. I reached out to the only connection I could think of, an old acquaintance who's a Pharmaceutical Chemist. I pitched the idea to him and asked if he'd be willing to help me come up with a few prototypes. A few Shark Tank jokes later and he said he was all on board. We talked about a few things and he even shared a product idea that he had with me that was unrelated, but related to Biochemical engineering I suppose. And now he's been radio silent for about a week and hasn't responded to me.

I'm trying to be patient with him but I'm hitting wall after wall trying to come up with ingredient ideas myself. So it might be time for me to branch out and actually hire a professional, contract and all.

Two questions I have in regards to that. First being, roughly how much would seem reasonable to invest in an idea when I'm not sure if it's even plausible yet.

Second being if anyone had any ideas on what type of companies/freelancers should I be looking for in regards to validating this type of product. Should I be looking into a provisional patent to protect the idea temporarily? Is a provisional patent possible for a hypothetical product that doesn't have a finalized ingredient list?

 

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[Millenial_Kid5K1]

Hello Fastlane,

Been lurking for a few months and I finally have a need to branch out and fish for ideas on how to move forward. I have a product idea that will be canned and applied to articles of clothing. The idea itself still needs to be tested as I'm not entirely sure if what I want it to do is even possible. I reached out to the only connection I could think of, an old acquaintance who's a Pharmaceutical Chemist. I pitched the idea to him and asked if he'd be willing to help me come up with a few prototypes. A few Shark Tank jokes later and he said he was all on board. We talked about a few things and he even shared a product idea that he had with me that was unrelated, but related to Biochemical engineering I suppose. And now he's been radio silent for about a week and hasn't responded to me.

I'm trying to be patient with him but I'm hitting wall after wall trying to come up with ingredient ideas myself. So it might be time for me to branch out and actually hire a professional, contract and all.

Two questions I have in regards to that. First being, roughly how much would seem reasonable to invest in an idea when I'm not sure if it's even plausible yet.

Second being if anyone had any ideas on what type of companies/freelancers should I be looking for in regards to validating this type of product. Should I be looking into a provisional patent to protect the idea temporarily? Is a provisional patent possible for a hypothetical product that doesn't have a finalized ingredient list?

I have a some experience in this field. How much are you wanting to make of this stuff? Are you trying to find the chemical that will do what you want, or do you already know what it is? Are you aiming to produce yourself or outsource?

 

[KDickson]

Hey Millenial thanks for reply. I'm looking for the ingredients to do what I want it to do, if I had the recipe I'd imagine the rest would be a lot more straightforward. So I'm still in the infant stages of "testing". I know there's definitely a market for it (whether or not it'll sell is a different story). Once I finish testing and have an actual product I'd imagine i'd initially outsource to make a few small test batches and test the market before I invest too much into the idea and then take it from there.

 

[JWelch]

There's nothing you get learn from a chemist that you can't find in a book my friend.

At minimum I would start learning about chemistry yourself being specific on searching uses for particular uses for specific compounds. That way if you do get to the point of finding an experienced chemist you at least have a base of knowledge.

You may even get to the point of tinkering with your own formulas and really not need anyone else or it may coax someone to assist you once they see a little progress has already been made into something tangible.

 

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[OldFaithful]

@KDickson , I'm guessing that your product is similar to something already in production but improved in some way. If so, here's an option: search for the manufacturers of a generic similar product and ask them if they can make your product. Be sure to have some legal paperwork prepared in advance, preferably by a lawyer, to protect your IP. The actual manufacturer might be difficult to find, but you never know until you try.

You probably wouldn't want to go to the big players in the market with the big brand names, there is more risk that they would steal your IP. With deep pockets they can afford more lawyers and keep you tied up for years.

 

[jpanarra]

I'm a chemist by profession in the manufacturing field, if you're going to mingle with chemistry make sure that you are aware of the different environmental polices in your country or wherever you are because if they find out that you're manufacturing chemical products they'll be knocking on your door. If you have a manufacturer make sure they are well in the guidelines of the environment policies.

Here's an example I know of in my job, I know of a basic waste water policy if they find a trace amount of chromium over the limit in waste water you will be charged at least over 10k per 100 Gallons, our waste water dumps easily 200 gallons per minute so you do the math...

Check all the ingredients and make sure all of them are disposed of correctly because a small miscalculation can set you back as far as a bankruptcy.

 

[Walter Hay]

You must heed @jpanarra's advice. The rules and regulations can not only be a pain, but tiny infractions can be very costly.

If you want help from anyone, the least you should do is get them to sign a Nondisclosure Agreement. Patents are not often much use in the chemical field. Chemical patents are among the easiest to legally sidestep.

If you know my reputation you might like to PM me with your basic idea. I am willing to help if you want. I might not be able to give you the formula, but I can probably tell you where to go to find out.

By the way, a pharmaceutical chemist would probably have too narrow a field of vision to be the one to help.

Walter

 

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[Millenial_Kid5K1]

I've worked as an assistant in 3 chemical labs, and have been a process engineer at a small toll chemical manufacturer for the last year.

Step number 1 is to figure out if what you want to do is possible.
Do a patent search. Since chemistry has been around so long you might find an expired patent that you could literally copy wholesale. Be thorough. Use keywords for both function and specific chemistries you've heard of.

While doing this, browse through as many industrial chemistry encyclopedias as you can. Ullman's encyclopedia and Kirk-othmer's encyclopedia are good ones, your best bet is to find a library that has them.

Go to a chemical convention. These are often full of people looking to market their chemistries. Informex is one I've heard of, and I know the American Institute of Chemical Engineers showcases stuff like that.

Whenever you find a chemistry that sounds promising, make sure that it has no adverse affects from skin contact, since you want to spray this on clothes.

Read a bit about chemistry. I'd actually do this online, since you don't need the depth that a full degree in chemistry would give you, you only need to know how a few chemicals interact (e.g. what happens when salt dissolves in water? What is 'electrophilic' vs. 'nucleophilic' and what's the difference between an 'ether' and an 'ester'? Why do some molecules release heat when they react, and why do some absorb heat?) The key here is that you can always learn more if you're interested in a specific chemistry or technique.

If what you need is simply a rebrand or a blend of an existing product:
This is the best-case scenario, simply find a way to mix, blend, or dilute it, slap your brand on it, and profit!

I might also recommend getting a patent in this case. You'd be surprised what people patent in the chemical field, and big money can be made by all.

If what you need involves some reactive chemistry, but it's something that other people are doing:
Again, this is a decent scenario. All you have to do is find a toll-manufacturer that specializes in what you want. Do copious web searches, network at chemistry conferences, and interview them. You're likely to pay at least $1.00 per lb for the raws, and the toll-manufacturer will probably skim 15-30% off the top. They won't package for you, all they're doing is allowing you the use of their reactors. You'll have to make at least 10,000 lbs for anyone to be interested on an initial order.

Again, I'd recommend getting a patent.

If you have an idea of the type of chemistry you want but you'd like to tweak it:
This is the most difficult scenario. Set up a lab for a few thousand $$ (I'm maybe being a bit optimistic here, but if I had a garage with a ventilated hood and wasn't dealing with anything deadly, I could accomplish quite a bit with a few thousand bucks.) Learn about design of experiments and factorial experiments. Be careful! Try every combination you can think of with different starting temps, different initiators, etc etc etc.

Actually getting the chemistry to work at this point is a matter of luck, but if you know other people have used similar chemistry you might have decent odds. I have no way of telling for a given chemistry. If you actually come up with something though, if you ACTUALLY get something new, patent that shit! It's yours for 20 years, which is plenty of time to build an empire...

 

[Millenial_Kid5K1]

Here's an example I know of in my job, I know of a basic waste water policy if they find a trace amount of chromium over the limit in waste water you will be charged at least over 10k per 100 Gallons, our waste water dumps easily 200 gallons per minute so you do the math...

Yeah, my company is getting reamed over waste water currently.

I'd personally not recommend trying to do reactive chemistry yourself due to the MASSIVE startup costs associated with it, and the million ASME, API, EPA, OSHA, PSM, RAGAGEP, etc regulations than can bite you pretty hard.

 

[Walter Hay]

I've worked as an assistant in 3 chemical labs, and have been a process engineer at a small toll chemical manufacturer for the last year.

Step number 1 is to figure out if what you want to do is possible.
Do a patent search. Since chemistry has been around so long you might find an expired patent that you could literally copy wholesale. Be thorough. Use keywords for both function and specific chemistries you've heard of.

While doing this, browse through as many industrial chemistry encyclopedias as you can. Ullman's encyclopedia and Kirk-othmer's encyclopedia are good ones, your best bet is to find a library that has them.

Go to a chemical convention. These are often full of people looking to market their chemistries. Informex is one I've heard of, and I know the American Institute of Chemical Engineers showcases stuff like that.

Whenever you find a chemistry that sounds promising, make sure that it has no adverse affects from skin contact, since you want to spray this on clothes.

Read a bit about chemistry. I'd actually do this online, since you don't need the depth that a full degree in chemistry would give you, you only need to know how a few chemicals interact (e.g. what happens when salt dissolves in water? What is 'electrophilic' vs. 'nucleophilic' and what's the difference between an 'ether' and an 'ester'? Why do some molecules release heat when they react, and why do some absorb heat?) The key here is that you can always learn more if you're interested in a specific chemistry or technique.

If what you need is simply a rebrand or a blend of an existing product:
This is the best-case scenario, simply find a way to mix, blend, or dilute it, slap your brand on it, and profit!

I might also recommend getting a patent in this case. You'd be surprised what people patent in the chemical field, and big money can be made by all.

If what you need involves some reactive chemistry, but it's something that other people are doing:
Again, this is a decent scenario. All you have to do is find a toll-manufacturer that specializes in what you want. Do copious web searches, network at chemistry conferences, and interview them. You're likely to pay at least $1.00 per lb for the raws, and the toll-manufacturer will probably skim 15-30% off the top. They won't package for you, all they're doing is allowing you the use of their reactors. You'll have to make at least 10,000 lbs for anyone to be interested on an initial order.

Again, I'd recommend getting a patent.

If you have an idea of the type of chemistry you want but you'd like to tweak it:
This is the most difficult scenario. Set up a lab for a few thousand $$ (I'm maybe being a bit optimistic here, but I had a garage with a ventilated hood and wasn't dealing with anything deadly, I could accomplish quite a bit with a few thousand bucks.) Learn about design of experiments and factorial experiments. Be careful! Try every combination you can think of with different starting temps, different initiators, etc etc etc.

Actually getting the chemistry to work at this point is a matter of luck, but if you know other people have used similar chemistry you might have decent odds. I have no way of telling for a given chemistry. If you actually come up with something though, if you ACTUALLY get something new, patent that shit! It's yours for 20 years, which is plenty of time to build an empire...

Excellent!

Apart from my cynical attitude about patent protection, which might be effective if the product is very complex by necessity, the only area in which I might differ is on the need for chemical knowledge. If you have a dog, why bark yourself? Once you get a handle on whether or not there is a a place for such a product, hire someone who knows.

Chemical knowledge might help protect you from an unscrupulous person, but is not needed if you pin down your hired help with a proper, lawyer prepared, NDA.

Walter

 

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[Millenial_Kid5K1]

Excellent!

Apart from my cynical attitude about patent protection, which might be effective if the product is very complex by necessity, the only area in which I might differ is on the need for chemical knowledge. If you have a dog, why bark yourself? Once you get a handle on whether or not there is a a place for such a product, hire someone who knows.

Chemical knowledge might help protect you from an unscrupulous person, but is not needed if you pin down your hired help with a proper, lawyer prepared, NDA.

Walter

Fair enough. I was envisioning him being told in initial contact with a toll-manufacturer, "we can't make that batch in 15 minutes, it's too exothermic" and having no clue if they were full of shit or what was up. Then again, we have to tell PhD chemists that all the time and they don't understand why, so who am I kidding.

I would argue to know a bit of chemistry if he gets to the point(pre-production) that he's messing around with chemistry himself.

 

[jpanarra]

Fair enough. I was envisioning him being told in initial contact with a toll-manufacturer, "we can't make that batch in 15 minutes, it's too exothermic" and having no clue if they were full of shit or what was up. Then again, we have to tell PhD chemists that all the time and they don't understand why, so who am I kidding.

I would argue to know a bit of chemistry if he gets to the point(pre-production) that he's messing around with chemistry himself.

PhD chemists are overrated, they have to have specializations that usually does not apply to their career in the future, as a BS with a MBA I have more leverage to my skills as a lab manager than they do. That being said, complex chemistry knowledge can be sought for and understood at the BS level. It just needs some time, patience, and applications of textbook knowledge. Anybody who spews random stuff about chemistry outside of their working experience is usually BS and I take their word with a grain of salt. People like to sound smart esp when it comes to hard sciences.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[Millenial_Kid5K1]

PhD chemists are overrated, they have to have specializations that usually does not apply to their career in the future, as a BS with a MBA I have more leverage to my skills as a lab manager than they do. That being said, complex chemistry knowledge can be sought for and understood at the BS level. It just needs some time, patience, and applications of textbook knowledge. Anybody who spews random stuff about chemistry outside of their working experience is usually BS and I take their word with a grain of salt. People like to sound smart esp when it comes to hard sciences.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Oh, I would never dream of questioning a chemist's chemistry knowledge. As a process engineer, my specialty is scale-up.

This is an issue that comes up a lot, however. It's simply because a chemist who's never been involved in production doesn't think of the fact that the volume:area ratio decreases as volume increases; for example a precise 1 gallon replica of an 8000 gallon reactor would have 20 times better cooling than the full-size version.

 

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[Walter Hay]

@Millenial_Kid5K1 and @jpanarra, you have both highlighted the huge difference that so often exists between theoretical knowledge and practical experience.

Walter

 

[jpanarra]

Oh, I would never dream of questioning a chemist's chemistry knowledge. As a process engineer, my specialty is scale-up.

This is an issue that comes up a lot, however. It's simply because a chemist who's never been involved in production doesn't think of the fact that the volume:area ratio decreases as volume increases; for example a precise 1 gallon replica of an 8000 gallon reactor would have 20 times better cooling than the full-size version.

Yep, I know exactly what you're talking about because I work closely and under process engineers at my plant and learned all different types of real world scenarios that seemly defies theory but still can be fixed with common sense.

@Millenial_Kid5K1 and @jpanarra, you have both highlighted the huge difference that so often exists between theoretical knowledge and practical experience.

Walter

Thanks walter, coming from you that means a lot. I plan on doing e-commerce at some point and love your thread about it. Currently I am in the process of learning other skills and selling it.

 

[KDickson]

@KDickson , I'm guessing that your product is similar to something already in production but improved in some way. If so, here's an option: search for the manufacturers of a generic similar product and ask them if they can make your product. Be sure to have some legal paperwork prepared in advance, preferably by a lawyer, to protect your IP. The actual manufacturer might be difficult to find, but you never know until you try.

You probably wouldn't want to go to the big players in the market with the big brand names, there is more risk that they would steal your IP. With deep pockets they can afford more lawyers and keep you tied up for years.

Unfortunately not that easy. As far as I can tell this is uncharted waters, I can't find a single product on the market that would do what mine would. Hence why I'm not even sure if it's actually possible to accomplish yet. Definitely don't plan on approaching any big scary Corporations with the idea though. If it's a success then it's going to be ripped off though, that much is obvious and I may get pushed out of the market eventually. But if I got the head start with brand recognition I should be able to make a buck and get bought out. The American dream, right?

I'm a chemist by profession in the manufacturing field, if you're going to mingle with chemistry make sure that you are aware of the different environmental polices in your country or wherever you are because if they find out that you're manufacturing chemical products they'll be knocking on your door. If you have a manufacturer make sure they are well in the guidelines of the environment policies.

Here's an example I know of in my job, I know of a basic waste water policy if they find a trace amount of chromium over the limit in waste water you will be charged at least over 10k per 100 Gallons, our waste water dumps easily 200 gallons per minute so you do the math...

Check all the ingredients and make sure all of them are disposed of correctly because a small miscalculation can set you back as far as a bankruptcy.

Definitely some solid advice. Your example really puts it in perspective. I was aware of some of the implications involving chemical based products but most of my worries were focused around the FDA asking me to fork over millions for "testing" at some point.

 

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[jpanarra]

Definitely some solid advice. Your example really puts it in perspective. I was aware of some of the implications involving chemical based products but most of my worries were focused around the FDA asking me to fork over millions for "testing" at some point.

Testing and manufacturing are two different things.. You can test just make sure you are aware of what needs to be treated, and treat it according to the guidelines or just store it in appropriate containers and drop it off at the proper industrial waste place near you.

Just dont dump it in your back yard