Business just started, not taking off as I thought

[Ross Mack]

I'm sure I saw a post on here recently where someone did exactly the same thing in 2 days.

My method would be:
Build site
Add PTs for free
Track how views/leads they get in a month
Contact them to see how much it is worth to them once they are getting leads

The main downfall of this method is you have to provide value for them to sign up, and without spending $$$$$ on marketing your site, you're not going to do that as you probably won't be sending them any leads.

Finding PTs is easy, not sure why people think this is a 'gap'.

BTW, found the thread, 3 days not 2 https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...t-an-online-business-surely-impossible.69614/

The freemium method may be the best way to go. I didn't want to do it, but it may need to be done, after everyones fantastic feedback.

 

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[Ross Mack]

Looking at the site I think there are a few issues you need to address. Your first problem is the classic chicken/egg problem. You don't have leads because you don't have trainers, and you don't have trainers because you don't have leads.

Not sure about market demand but some things I would do:

1. Use pay per lead or Free Beta period (6 months?)
Reduce the risk that trainers take. Why would a trainer pay for a site that has no leads?

2. Reduce as many barriers as possible for trainers
Anything you can do to reduce the barrier of entry is helpful. Call trainers to get signups. Offer free listing, input their information for them over the phone during that same call if possible.

3. Improve UX
3a. Search
The search has too many initial options. Considering you don't have thousands of trainers to sort through, many options will yield empty results. Evaluate sites for inspiration like:
https://findyourtrainer.com/
Asks for Location, provides additional filter options after initial search.
http://fitnesstrainer.com/
Asks clear, simple questions, 1 at a time.

3b. Search Results

Your results have very limited information. You want to provide a better overview of the trainers in this view. Some things you should consider displaying:

Name
Photo
Fees (per session, per person, per group fee)
Specialties
Availability (Day of week and time of day)

3c. Actions a user takes should have an impact. When you click the territories on the map, it doesn't do anything for the user. Clicking the map should fill in details for the Suburb field.

4. Change your tagline to something that connects better to your sites purpose.
'CONNECT WITH THE WORLD' is too generic and doesn't convey what the site is about. Change it to something like 'Connect with your Trainer' or 'Find your Personal Trainer'


Assuming there is market demand, I think the site has potential, and with a few tweaks could take off. Good luck!

Thank you for the in depth response.

I wanted a search engine that you pick trainer type and suburb, but this seemed impossible to find.
Literally every single programming company said, they cant integrate google maps to surrounding suburb search, so they would have to manually integrate each suburb, costing 10s of thousands more.

 

[Ross Mack]

Two things:
1) The $45k is a sunk cost. Forget it. Figure out how to provide value to your target audience. What need can you satisfy? Pivot if needed.
2) How did you get the one sale? Have you contacted them directly? What made them sign up? Have you contacted some that didn't sign up to see why not? Get on the phone!

The signed up from the texts I sent out. Mentioning they wanted to kick start their new pt business. I've been boosting fb posts that they are in, as trainer of the day, so they can get more exposure. This also acts as an ad for my site.

 

[Ross Mack]

Thanks.

OP Why not charge a % of each sale made through the application instead of a listing fee. More potential for revenue, less risk to the person signing up who has no idea if your service will get them a customer or not.

Thank you for the response. I will look into this. With the current structure, I may need to revamp the site. It is a great suggestion for a low risk option to the trainers.

 

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[biophase]

I see a couple things fundamentally wrong with your process.

I understand this is a sunk cost, but for next time...

You spent $45,000 on a business that you were going to charge $49/yr. So basically you were projecting about 920 signups to break even in year 1. Was this number in your head from the start? Is it a realistic one?

Second, you say that there is a disconnect or need in this market. But how did you test? When I was in Australia, I just googled personal trainer Bondi and there were at least 2 pages on them. I didn't have the need to google any region outside of that. Now, if your website came up in the top 3, maybe I would have chosen from it. Which leads me to the horse/cart issue. You need to rank your site before PT's will start to pay. And you will need PT's on there to help you rank you site.

Also, I see you took your link down. But when I looked at the site before, because I knew you had 1 paid trainer, I was thinking all the other trainers were fake? But even if they were real trainers, I did not get the sense that they were. Their info listed on the site was not compelling enough for me to choose any of them. Where are there pics on how ripped they are? Some pics were blurry. Most were face pics.

 

[Never1]

New-ish member, here.

My apologies for the blunt reply, but I'm just trying to provide some insight from years of industry experience.

I own a fitness centre, and though I'm not in Australia, I'm confident when I say that the North American market and the marketplace from a "land down under" are probably very similar.

Based on my experiences in dealing with trainers, hiring them, getting to know the movers and shakers in my local market, I can say for a reasonable amount certainty that OP has misjudged this one. I hope I'm wrong, but I'd like to provide a few points for your consideration.

- a single trainer can't handle more than twelve single session clients (I.e. Trainer and one client, one on one at say 3 times per week, average). For a hungry and efficient trainer, they can get filled up pretty quickly, if they rock referrals and have the right combination of interpersonal skills, and the know how to get results for their clients. Why anyone would need to pay for a site, to list themselves, given such paltry requirements to get book up, is the question

- regardless of client trainer "finder/matchmaker intentions, my experience tells me that most trainers really suck when it comes to selling. You can lead a horse to water, but if all the horse does is piss in the fountain, what's the point? If the trainer is really good at selling, and has learned the sales system needed to bring on new clients, and maintain them, they don't need this site. If they don't know how to sell, no amount of prospects will matter. It's like a frusterated chump getting hooked up with tons of babes, by well intentioned friends, and striking out 5 minutes into the first date, every single time. There are dos and donts when it comes to selling fitness, especially as a trainer.

- the good trainers would pay for a service, recognizing the need to invest in marketing, but since they are already booked up, they don't need this service. The bad ones are unwilling to put money into a site, especially if it is unproven. Spamming their Facebook friends is a much easier, cheaper, and the most logical method, in their minds.

- back to the sales issue. If a good trainer is simply bad at sales, he/she needs help with sales. There's already an abundance of "gurus" out there, who can teach a trainer how to sell themselves. That niche is cornered and competitive. Maybe, possibly, potentially, there might be an opportunity to take the OPs idea and combine it with a sales funnel that guides trainers through the process, while also providing them leads. I dunno.

- most people don't think they need a trainer, and if they finally conclude that they do, they ask friends first. Google is for finding fitness centres, not individual trainers.

- many trainers are "fly by night" types, in it for the glory of calling themselves a trainer. They are egotistical people who care more about themselves, than they do their clients. I don't hire these people, and I screen heavily to ensure they stay the F*ck away from my clients. These types, again, would not feel they need to pay a website to list themselves. Facebook has a large audience, and allows them to take endless abdominal crunching bathroom selfies and pictures of lawn mower salad filled plates, showing the world just how serious they are about themselves....er...their clients' health and fitness.

Hopefully I am flat out wrong, and I don't want to burst bubbles. I'm hoping that some of these points (I probably have more that will come to mind, later) will actually provide some insights so that OP can rethink and find a better angle of attack.

 

[AustinS28]

New-ish member, here.

My apologies for the blunt reply, but I'm just trying to provide some insight from years of industry experience.

I own a fitness centre, and though I'm not in Australia, I'm confident when I say that the North American market and the marketplace from a "land down under" are probably very similar.

Based on my experiences in dealing with trainers, hiring them, getting to know the movers and shakers in my local market, I can say for a reasonable amount certainty that OP has misjudged this one. I hope I'm wrong, but I'd like to provide a few points for your consideration.

- a single trainer can't handle more than twelve single session clients (I.e. Trainer and one client, one on one at say 3 times per week, average). For a hungry and efficient trainer, they can get filled up pretty quickly, if they rock referrals and have the right combination of interpersonal skills, and the know how to get results for their clients. Why anyone would need to pay for a site, to list themselves, given such paltry requirements to get book up, is the question

- regardless of client trainer "finder/matchmaker intentions, my experience tells me that most trainers really suck when it comes to selling. You can lead a horse to water, but if all the horse does is piss in the fountain, what's the point? If the trainer is really good at selling, and has learned the sales system needed to bring on new clients, and maintain them, they don't need this site. If they don't know how to sell, no amount of prospects will matter. It's like a frusterated chump getting hooked up with tons of babes, by well intentioned friends, and striking out 5 minutes into the first date, every single time. There are dos and donts when it comes to selling fitness, especially as a trainer.

- the good trainers would pay for a service, recognizing the need to invest in marketing, but since they are already booked up, they don't need this service. The bad ones are unwilling to put money into a site, especially if it is unproven. Spamming their Facebook friends is a much easier, cheaper, and the most logical method, in their minds.

- back to the sales issue. If a good trainer is simply bad at sales, he/she needs help with sales. There's already an abundance of "gurus" out there, who can teach a trainer how to sell themselves. That niche is cornered and competitive. Maybe, possibly, potentially, there might be an opportunity to take the OPs idea and combine it with a sales funnel that guides trainers through the process, while also providing them leads. I dunno.

- most people don't think they need a trainer, and if they finally conclude that they do, they ask friends first. Google is for finding fitness centres, not individual trainers.

- many trainers are "fly by night" types, in it for the glory of calling themselves a trainer. They are egotistical people who care more about themselves, than they do their clients. I don't hire these people, and I screen heavily to ensure they stay the F*ck away from my clients. These types, again, would not feel they need to pay a website to list themselves. Facebook has a large audience, and allows them to take endless abdominal crunching bathroom selfies and pictures of lawn mower salad filled plates, showing the world just how serious they are about themselves....er...their clients' health and fitness.

Hopefully I am flat out wrong, and I don't want to burst bubbles. I'm hoping that some of these points (I probably have more that will come to mind, later) will actually provide some insights so that OP can rethink and find a better angle of attack.

I agree and disagree to some extent and have several years industry experience as well.

I think the sales issue can be fixed by allowing people to book direct off the website and taking a cut, this replaces charging trainers a listing fee.

It took me two years to fully book my schedule as a trainer to a point where I actually can't wait to move into something bigger and never have a 530 am appointment or 930 pm appointment again.

That said I became a great salesman in two years, but I worked hard to build that base. It wasn't easy without working for a gym to find customers. I would've signed up in a heart beat for something to help generate leads more easily.

I've used services and have friends who use services similar to this that have gotten us clients. Some long term. It definitely is about 10% of my business, but still equates to $800-$1000 a month in income.

I wholeheartedly agree that most trainers are self absorbed, don't know what they're doing and I couldn't tell you why they became trainers except the low bar of entry.

I'll also say most don't have and maintain many clients. But it just sounds like how it is for most people in other areas - want an easy way to make some money, don't realize things take hard work, time and skill - so they quit.

Anyways back to the OP, maybe it's time to get some customer feedback and make a pivot on the strategy.

 

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[Never1]

I agree and disagree to some extent and have several years industry experience as well.

I think the sales issue can be fixed by allowing people to book direct off the website and taking a cut, this replaces charging trainers a listing fee.

It took me two years to fully book my schedule as a trainer to a point where I actually can't wait to move into something bigger and never have a 530 am appointment or 930 pm appointment again.

That said I became a great salesman in two years, but I worked hard to build that base. It wasn't easy without working for a gym to find customers. I would've signed up in a heart beat for something to help generate leads more easily.

I've used services and have friends who use services similar to this that have gotten us clients. Some long term. It definitely is about 10% of my business, but still equates to $800-$1000 a month in income.

I wholeheartedly agree that most trainers are self absorbed, don't know what they're doing and I couldn't tell you why they became trainers except the low bar of entry.

I'll also say most don't have and maintain many clients. But it just sounds like how it is for most people in other areas - want an easy way to make some money, don't realize things take hard work, time and skill - so they quit.

Anyways back to the OP, maybe it's time to get some customer feedback and make a pivot on the strategy.

2 years seems about right, to gain the right amount of practical experience and work through the sales and interpersonal stuff. You're probably at the point that hopefully you have someone else booking for you, or at least doing the bulk of your lead followup. The 5am and 9pm stuff is definitely concerning. I tell my trainers to pick their time and never violate it. If you're not a morning person, don't bust your hump to get out of bed and be in session at 5am. Let that client find a 5am trainer. You're not doing your clients any favours by half-assing their sessions, and burning out, because you were up late prepping and finishing up other duties.

 

[Kinematic]

I'm still trying to work out what direction to take the Instagram account in .I figured I would cycle through different types of posts, whether it is motivational, or healthy recipes, and such and see what gets the best response. Trail and error for the Instagram page.

The first thing to come to mind would be before/after pictures. People love progress (In all forms!). You could show them and say something along the lines of "look how John Doe made awesome progress, Find YOUR trainer at blah blah blah"

 

[The-J]

Maybe, possibly, potentially, there might be an opportunity to take the OPs idea and combine it with a sales funnel that guides trainers through the process, while also providing them leads. I dunno.

Funny you mention this.

Bedros Keuilian (among others) sells this kind of thing, but as a franchising deal (fitbody).

After working with personal trainers, this is my takeaway, and I'm curious if you agree or disagree.

What good trainers want is the ability to make LESS of their income from single-sessions. Anything that will prevent them from having to do single sessions to make money is an awesome compromise. This is why Beachbody, Herbalife, and other MLMs like that are so potent.

They would prefer to run classes and webinars. They would prefer to sell supplements and books. They would prefer to upload Youtube videos and Instagram posts. Anything that isn't directly trading time for money is something they'd rather do. And if they had to, they'd rather train celebrities for movie roles and stuff like that.

Most personal trainers, good or bad, don't know Internet marketing, and would prefer not to know. But, if they think it'll separate their time from money, they'll likely do it. It's why the 'teaching' market for personal trainers is so crowded.

Bad trainers are the people you don't want to serve, like, ever. If you can help it, don't help someone who is bad at their job. They'll fail and they'll blame you for being unable to generate good, profitable leads.

Good trainers don't have trouble generating leads for single session clients: they have trouble removing themselves from the grind of training.

 

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[Never1]

Funny you mention this.

Bedros Keuilian (among others) sells this kind of thing, but as a franchising deal (fitbody).

After working with personal trainers, this is my takeaway, and I'm curious if you agree or disagree.

What good trainers want is the ability to make LESS of their income from single-sessions. Anything that will prevent them from having to do single sessions to make money is an awesome compromise. This is why Beachbody, Herbalife, and other MLMs like that are so potent.

They would prefer to run classes and webinars. They would prefer to sell supplements and books. They would prefer to upload Youtube videos and Instagram posts. Anything that isn't directly trading time for money is something they'd rather do. And if they had to, they'd rather train celebrities for movie roles and stuff like that.

Most personal trainers, good or bad, don't know Internet marketing, and would prefer not to know. But, if they think it'll separate their time from money, they'll likely do it. It's why the 'teaching' market for personal trainers is so crowded.

Bad trainers are the people you don't want to serve, like, ever. If you can help it, don't help someone who is bad at their job. They'll fail and they'll blame you for being unable to generate good, profitable leads.

Good trainers don't have trouble generating leads for single session clients: they have trouble removing themselves from the grind of training.

I'm very familiar with Bedros. His work is some of the best out there, and we follow a modified version of his "close clients" methodology. Where he caters to PTs running boot camps, in that specific program, we also have the fitness centre membership aspect to deal with and as such have had to modify certain things.

Also, we don't do single sessions. It's all team and small group. I was merely using it as a basic example, for illustrative purposes.

I don't do any of the training, and I act as the orchestrator. Getting all the parts moving together, in harmony, to generate revenue and give clients a unique experience. It's tough industry.

 

[Ross Mack]

I see a couple things fundamentally wrong with your process.

I understand this is a sunk cost, but for next time...

You spent $45,000 on a business that you were going to charge $49/yr. So basically you were projecting about 920 signups to break even in year 1. Was this number in your head from the start? Is it a realistic one?

Second, you say that there is a disconnect or need in this market. But how did you test? When I was in Australia, I just googled personal trainer Bondi and there were at least 2 pages on them. I didn't have the need to google any region outside of that. Now, if your website came up in the top 3, maybe I would have chosen from it. Which leads me to the horse/cart issue. You need to rank your site before PT's will start to pay. And you will need PT's on there to help you rank you site.

Also, I see you took your link down. But when I looked at the site before, because I knew you had 1 paid trainer, I was thinking all the other trainers were fake? But even if they were real trainers, I did not get the sense that they were. Their info listed on the site was not compelling enough for me to choose any of them. Where are there pics on how ripped they are? Some pics were blurry. Most were face pics.

Thank you for the response. I do agree they would have been unrealistic numbers, however I had no intentions of breaking even in the first year, with those stats. I do however have other facets of income being funneled through the site. But I need the traffic first. I think freemium is the way to go.

It is easy enough to find any old trainer, but finding a trainer that has good reviews, and you can trust is where there is hole in the markete. A lot of trainers have now shifted to offering first session free, because there is such a risk from the clients perspective, that they may be signing up to an unsuitable trainer. This was supposed to be a community based site, so people can trust in the trainers that they choose. There is a reviews system in place, but there are still bugs, so that has been hidden from the public.

I agree. The pictures need upgrading, to reflect fitness. Thank you for your input.

 

[Ross Mack]

New-ish member, here.

My apologies for the blunt reply, but I'm just trying to provide some insight from years of industry experience.

I own a fitness centre, and though I'm not in Australia, I'm confident when I say that the North American market and the marketplace from a "land down under" are probably very similar.

Based on my experiences in dealing with trainers, hiring them, getting to know the movers and shakers in my local market, I can say for a reasonable amount certainty that OP has misjudged this one. I hope I'm wrong, but I'd like to provide a few points for your consideration.

- a single trainer can't handle more than twelve single session clients (I.e. Trainer and one client, one on one at say 3 times per week, average). For a hungry and efficient trainer, they can get filled up pretty quickly, if they rock referrals and have the right combination of interpersonal skills, and the know how to get results for their clients. Why anyone would need to pay for a site, to list themselves, given such paltry requirements to get book up, is the question

- regardless of client trainer "finder/matchmaker intentions, my experience tells me that most trainers really suck when it comes to selling. You can lead a horse to water, but if all the horse does is piss in the fountain, what's the point? If the trainer is really good at selling, and has learned the sales system needed to bring on new clients, and maintain them, they don't need this site. If they don't know how to sell, no amount of prospects will matter. It's like a frusterated chump getting hooked up with tons of babes, by well intentioned friends, and striking out 5 minutes into the first date, every single time. There are dos and donts when it comes to selling fitness, especially as a trainer.

- the good trainers would pay for a service, recognizing the need to invest in marketing, but since they are already booked up, they don't need this service. The bad ones are unwilling to put money into a site, especially if it is unproven. Spamming their Facebook friends is a much easier, cheaper, and the most logical method, in their minds.

- back to the sales issue. If a good trainer is simply bad at sales, he/she needs help with sales. There's already an abundance of "gurus" out there, who can teach a trainer how to sell themselves. That niche is cornered and competitive. Maybe, possibly, potentially, there might be an opportunity to take the OPs idea and combine it with a sales funnel that guides trainers through the process, while also providing them leads. I dunno.

- most people don't think they need a trainer, and if they finally conclude that they do, they ask friends first. Google is for finding fitness centres, not individual trainers.

- many trainers are "fly by night" types, in it for the glory of calling themselves a trainer. They are egotistical people who care more about themselves, than they do their clients. I don't hire these people, and I screen heavily to ensure they stay the F*ck away from my clients. These types, again, would not feel they need to pay a website to list themselves. Facebook has a large audience, and allows them to take endless abdominal crunching bathroom selfies and pictures of lawn mower salad filled plates, showing the world just how serious they are about themselves....er...their clients' health and fitness.

Hopefully I am flat out wrong, and I don't want to burst bubbles. I'm hoping that some of these points (I probably have more that will come to mind, later) will actually provide some insights so that OP can rethink and find a better angle of attack.

Nah not at all, I appreciate the response. Negative feedback is so much more fundamental in improving ideas, and I agree with a lot of your points. I know I can make this work, but it is about tweaking it for how the market reacts, and following that trail, opposed to telling the market what it wants. Thank you for the detailed response.

 

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[Random_0]

Why not set up one customer with one trainer and expand? Your primary job could be lead gen and secondary job finding trainers to serve the leads.

You've invested so much into the idea. Did you run any tests before you spent your money on the website? It doesn't look like a premium website, in my opinion.

The Lean Startup is a good book, you should check it out.


EDIT:

Some points on the website:

- First option should be pick what you need (e.g. Weights Training), not where you are. Your service is for personal training, not geography mapping. I already know you cover Australia. The map makes it look like directory website, not a lead posting/purchasing type of service.
Even if you don't have trainers for a certain skillset, you could be collecting data early on from your website to learn what the most common trainer-type is required

- The html looking table needs to go!

- The design could do with modernizing: fresh, clean & modern is a bit of a web design cliche at the minute but it lends itself to ease of use and clarity for customers, especially when you're dealing with a service that has multiple steps to go through to get the end objective (a personal trainer!).

- The colour scheme and design is slightly corporate for my tastes, almost like an out of date gym website. If i'm an overweight middle aged woman do I want to see a corporate, straight-edged & slightly unfriendly service, or do I need one that is making me feel welcome, offering me an easy, clear and friendly way to find a trainer to help me achieve my goals?

These type of lead-gen websites are killing it in the UK and the successful ones were probably investor backed from early on and took years to get profitable/self sustainable.

 

[Ross Mack]

Why not set up one customer with one trainer and expand? Your primary job could be lead gen and secondary job finding trainers to serve the leads.

You've invested so much into the idea. Did you run any tests before you spent your money on the website? It doesn't look like a premium website, in my opinion.

The Lean Startup is a good book, you should check it out.


EDIT:

Some points on the website:

- First option should be pick what you need (e.g. Weights Training), not where you are. Your service is for personal training, not geography mapping. I already know you cover Australia. The map makes it look like directory website, not a lead posting/purchasing type of service.
Even if you don't have trainers for a certain skillset, you could be collecting data early on from your website to learn what the most common trainer-type is required

- The html looking table needs to go!

- The design could do with modernizing: fresh, clean & modern is a bit of a web design cliche at the minute but it lends itself to ease of use and clarity for customers, especially when you're dealing with a service that has multiple steps to go through to get the end objective (a personal trainer!).

- The colour scheme and design is slightly corporate for my tastes, almost like an out of date gym website. If i'm an overweight middle aged woman do I want to see a corporate, straight-edged & slightly unfriendly service, or do I need one that is making me feel welcome, offering me an easy, clear and friendly way to find a trainer to help me achieve my goals?

These type of lead-gen websites are killing it in the UK and the successful ones were probably investor backed from early on and took years to get profitable/self sustainable.

Great feedback, thank you for taking the time to respond.

The home page does need touching up.

The HTML table, do you mean the 'Live Events' on the right hand side of the home page? The purpose of that is to show every time a new forum is created, or a new professional joins the community. It looks very 90's, so yeah I agree it could do with making that look fresh.

I'm already in talks with the developers to have the home page redone. I think I will drop the Australia, keep the video, and have a search trainer option there instead.

Cheers, Ross.

 

[Random_0]

Great feedback, thank you for taking the time to respond.

The home page does need touching up.

The HTML table, do you mean the 'Live Events' on the right hand side of the home page? The purpose of that is to show every time a new forum is created, or a new professional joins the community. It looks very 90's, so yeah I agree it could do with making that look fresh.

I'm already in talks with the developers to have the home page redone. I think I will drop the Australia, keep the video, and have a search trainer option there instead.

Cheers, Ross.

Sometimes critique seems harsh, but you seem to take criticism well and take responsibility. You should be proud of yourself for even starting, how can you improve without facing any obstacles?

 

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[Ross Mack]

Sometimes critique seems harsh, you seem to take responsibility and criticism well, you should be proud of yourself for even starting

Nah not at all. I WANT the negative feedback. It can be so much more helpful in highlighting portions of any business that needs to be pivoted/ changed.

I genuinely appreciate everyones responses, both good and bad.

 

[Concept]

Dude, I just checked out your site (I'm assuming its the one on your profile page).

I've ranked a number of Local service websites in Australia (I'm based in Armidale NSW, but grew up in Sydney) and have some detailed feedback regarding your website and how you can get it ranking locally. It would be easier and quicker for me to walk you through what I can see. PM me your skype details and a good time to chat.

 

[Ross Mack]

Hi everyone,
I wanted to say thank you for your feedback, last year in August.

Having dived in this business without any intention of making it a lean start up, I have taken on all feedback given last year, and used most of which I thought applicable. There are still tweaks that I need to make, and there are still some bugs since changing a few things. These are being worked on.

I do some have some real trainers on the site, and a friend is organising a Facebook marketing campaign.

This is the semi-finished product. I appreciate everyone that contributed with their advice.

www.fitnessselect.com.au

 

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