PROGRESS THREAD (James F) Startup #2

[JamesF]

@smmirza - Thanks and welcome!

@BeachBoy - Yup, definitely the downside to Rails. And yes, it's biting me in the ass! I agree with everything you said.

@tinch1492 - Thanks man!

@77startup - Thanks.. Good news would be nice!

[Pat]

Any updates?

[buckmajor]

Awesome James! I'm very inspired by your progress. Thanks and keep it up

[JamesF]

Definitely due for an update. It's been almost a couple months since, but I parted ways with the coder. Actually, more like I got totally ripped off. I filed a chargeback against him, but I could only do $1,500 but got ripped off a total of $4500 because the other charges were outside the eligibility window. I hope I win the chargeback, it's with American Express ( I could possibly even take him to court, but prob not worth it financially )

Anyways, ended up finally finding out that I was being led on and lied to the entire time. I'd be surprised if he even put in 30 hours out of the 90 hours I paid him for. Found out from others in the city, that I am not the first person he did this to. So God willing, I hope and pray the chargeback comes back.

Definitely was a low time for me, and I was depressed for several weeks. Definitely hurt me mentally, a huge financial setback, and lost priceless time. I resorted to drinking and even smoking for a bit to drown out life for a bit. At the end of the day, I can't blame anybody but myself and I'll take accountability for making a poor choice and getting blind sided.

But onto sunnier news: I shook it off finally, and decided to just go and learn Ruby on Rails myself. There's a thread on here from back in early Nov. announcing my decision.

I've made great progress with building the app myself. And estimate myself at about 60% done, I am hoping to get a minimum viable version launched here the first week of January. *Fingers crossed and putting in major hours* Along with Freelanceful, I've been learning a ton about Ruby on Rails and at this point, I think I can definitely go out and get a junior developer position if all else fails.

Weird admitting my depression stage on a forum where anybody can read it, but if it helps only a couple people from making the same mistakes as me; it's the least I can give back for a wonderful forum and group of people I've met on here.

Thanks!
- James F.

[Gruby Phil]

Definitely was a low time for me, and I was depressed for several weeks. Definitely hurt me mentally, a huge financial setback, and lost priceless time. I resorted to drinking and even smoking for a bit to drown out life for a bit. At the end of the day, I can't blame anybody but myself and I'll take accountability for making a poor choice and getting blind sided.

That reminds me of my first 'real job'. I was making a website for a guy who proposed me a really good salary. Only problem was that he wanted to sign contract with me after the job. I knew nothing about the world, jobs, businesses and people ( it was in the middle of highschool ) and I also wasn't sure if I could do it, so I agreed. Took me month to code a site that I was really proud of and sent it to him. Then I received a contract... I had never been more suprised, I just couldn't believe it- he wanted to pay me 80 $. I could take it or just stay with my useless site so I agreed again. My first job and I got ripped off so badly. It took me week to get over with this failure. Yes, I was an idiot, but that was first lesson I have ever learned. Later it saved me from much bigger mistakes.
Of course it can't be compared to your problems but as we say here in Poland: what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You won't make same mistake again. I hope you will get money back. Keep it up!
BTW: sorry for my language, I hope I made myself clear

[Pete799p]

Thats pretty crappy to hear. I wonder how people like that sleep at night. I want to be wealthy becuase of the amount of value I add to peoples lives not because I can steal from people. It goes to show you how people are no better then animals.

I hope everything is on the up and up for you in the future.

[77startup]

Thanks for the update JamesF we were in a simular predicament and ironically had about the same outcome (teaching ourselves to code it). My freelancer ended up getting hired by a large company and just stopped responding to me all together.

I didn't know what to do either and reflected back on how much money I've spent on freelance coders in the last 3 years (about 7,700 usd) and decided to just learn how to code and gain more control.

[CMCarlin]

Definitely due for an update. It's been almost a couple months since, but I parted ways with the coder. Actually, more like I got totally ripped off. I filed a chargeback against him, but I could only do $1,500 but got ripped off a total of $4500 because the other charges were outside the eligibility window. I hope I win the chargeback, it's with American Express ( I could possibly even take him to court, but prob not worth it financially )

Anyways, ended up finally finding out that I was being led on and lied to the entire time. I'd be surprised if he even put in 30 hours out of the 90 hours I paid him for. Found out from others in the city, that I am not the first person he did this to. So God willing, I hope and pray the chargeback comes back.

Definitely was a low time for me, and I was depressed for several weeks. Definitely hurt me mentally, a huge financial setback, and lost priceless time. I resorted to drinking and even smoking for a bit to drown out life for a bit. At the end of the day, I can't blame anybody but myself and I'll take accountability for making a poor choice and getting blind sided.

But onto sunnier news: I shook it off finally, and decided to just go and learn Ruby on Rails myself. There's a thread on here from back in early Nov. announcing my decision.

I've made great progress with building the app myself. And estimate myself at about 60% done, I am hoping to get a minimum viable version launched here the first week of January. *Fingers crossed and putting in major hours* Along with Freelanceful, I've been learning a ton about Ruby on Rails and at this point, I think I can definitely go out and get a junior developer position if all else fails.

Weird admitting my depression stage on a forum where anybody can read it, but if it helps only a couple people from making the same mistakes as me; it's the least I can give back for a wonderful forum and group of people I've met on here.

Thanks!
- James F.

Hey James,

I think there is a lot that we could learn from here. Please allow me to dig further into how this could happen. If this was covered earlier in the thread, apologies - but for the sake of consolidation and research, lets go over it again

Where did you hire the coder?
What were the first warning signs that something was wrong?
How could you have held him more accountable?
What would you now do differently in the interviewing process to prevent this from happening?
What sort of checks and balances would you put into place to ensure that quality work is now being done?

Thanks for any answers you can provide in advance - I really think these could help a lot of people, including myself, as I am getting into hiring programmers to create an in-house order management system.

Regards,
Chris

[BeachBoy]

that might be why his freelanceful idea is a good one, because it will help people NOT hire people like this.

good luck with Ruby! I have started to learn MVC (on codeigniter - php) and it's a new way to code but I'm getting a hang of it now.

[FastNAwesome]

I've made great progress with building the app myself. And estimate myself at about 60% done, I am hoping to get a minimum viable version launched here the first week of January. *Fingers crossed and putting in major hours*

Go for it man, best of luck! Looking forward to trying it out.

I've been learning a ton about Ruby on Rails and at this point, I think I can definitely go out and get a junior developer position if all else fails.

Now I have to say this one like it is - with your Front-End and UX design skills, it would be a waste of time and talent for you to work as junior-anything. Freelanceful must be one of the most fantastic designs I've seen. Yes, there are some very artistic websites out there, but their usability sucks, and there are some very functional and "clean" websites, but let's face it - they're not clean, they are ugly.

Freelanceful on the other hand is masterfully blending these two concepts, being one of the rare websites which is very user and seo friendly, but beautiful at the same time. (maybe I should be a copywriter not a coder)

got ripped off a total of $4500

Thanks for the update JamesF we were in a simular predicament and ironically had about the same outcome (teaching ourselves to code it). My freelancer ended up getting hired by a large company and just stopped responding to me all together.

I didn't know what to do either and reflected back on how much money I've spent on freelance coders in the last 3 years (about 7,700 usd) and decided to just learn how to code and gain more control.

This is exactly how I became a web developer.

But I do want to reflect on the fact that James' developer was (as I understood) local. Meaning:

1. He could control him "live"
2. Developer was a "westerner"

Now, there are a few other facts that may not be that known to you:

1. There are places where sums you got ripped off for pose someones annual salary.
2. In these places also exist smart, educated and professional people willing to do the work.

My point is that for programming, design and similar services it doesn't matter where you outsource,
but to whom and how.

If you have a method to control the quality of work, then you can control the quality of work.

Going locally instead of online, or paying more instead of less is not quality control,
nor it's quality guarantee.

Not trying to be smart here, I'd also like to know about good method to outsource, but
maybe it's something to think about.

[Brander]

It's simple, if a developer is good, he will constantly look for better paying jobs in bigger organisations. Lot of coders out there and 95% of them are not very good either in coding or attitude and communication.

I wonder if Jim Edwards has cracked the code to hiring developers? What I found is that employing students works OK, it's not perfect as they are usually slower as they learn as they do, but at least they don't have that many options.

[DangerDave]

JamesF-

Just went through and read this whole thread. Great progress so far!

Lol, the 10K signups was something I just pulled out my butt. It sounded good; I know I'll be no where near that.. but wanted to have something so that anyone that signed up knew it would prob be a few weeks before it'll be available.

Any update on how many users you have had sign up until this point?


If you aren't already, it might help to have some logic in place to let you know what type of user is signing up to be notified. ie: users submitting email addresses on the "Browse Projects" page are most likely Freelancers, while those on the "Search Workers" page are most likely employers. But then you run into a problem categorizing them on the "Register" page.

You could just change your sign up form to so it includes what people are actually looking for.
"I'm looking for a *dropdown*. *email address field* SUBMIT BUTTON

Then you can actually gather some information on what people are actually looking for rather than a "catch all" submission field.

Could possibly help with your marketing efforts, and definitely analytics.


Hope this helps....

[BeachBoy]

What I found is that employing students works OK, it's not perfect as they are usually slower as they learn as they do, but at least they don't have that many options.

I agree on that. I have hired a programmer at work and while he's not as fast, there are a few things I would not trade:

1- he's willing to find solutions out of the box as he doesn't have a strict mindset about coding.. he will search and find ways to accomplish stuff other experienced coders would probably have said "it's not possible"
2- he's loyal
3- you can control their work as they don't have pre-conceived ways of doing things.

[JamesF]

@Gruby Phill - Thank you. You're absolutely right, I won't be making that mistake ever again. An expensive lesson though, lol.

@Pete799p - Thank you. I wonder too. Ironically, he is doing a startup too. Which is another reason why my project was probably being pushed to the side. Most freelancers get their client's work done first, then their own. He was the opposite, smh. Using the money I paid to fund himself while working on his own.

@77startup - Def agree with you. That peace of mind of having more control over your progress is priceless.

@CMCarlin - Great questions. I'll give those questions it's own reply here next.

@BeachBoy - Thanks. Good luck with your learning; definitely tons of good learning resources out there. Lemme know if you run into problems. StackOverFlow has been like gold to me.

@FastNAwesome - WOW. THANK YOU. The compliment on the design really hit me because I spent so much OCD-like hours on every single pixel. Feels great to know someone can feel it! As far as the junior position,.. I will probably look into a junior Ruby position first as the demands are quite higher than UI and whole lot less competition; and ironically, usually pays a whole lot more even being a junior position as the need for Ruby on Rails guys is getting desperate.

I hope everybody reads your last portion on the comment, which is VERY true. Just because they are local doesn't mean you have any more control than somebody across the country, nor does it automatically mean they are better simply because the coder is here in the States. Fairly deep discussion of a complicated problem. (which is def the #1 problem to solve with Freelanceful)

@roark - Agreed. A good developer will be so booked up, sometimes he/she doesn't even need to go out and find more work. lol

@DangerDave - About 250ish email sign ups through Mailchimp. Wow, great tip.. wish I would of thought about that. Added to the to-do list.

[JamesF]

** Reply to CMarlin **

Where did you hire the coder?

Found him through Google, as I searched terms related to Ruby on Rails and Nashville. Found maybe 3 or 4 that were full-time freelancers. He was the cheaper out the group at $50/hour. Moral of the Story: Don't go with the cheaper route.

What were the first warning signs that something was wrong?

When he didn't meet the first two milestones, and gave technical excuses (which he thought would fly over my head since I'm not a coder and prob wouldn't understand it). Moral of the Story: Thoroughly investigate any excuses, especially anything technical you may not understand. Ask other coders their opinion on the excuse and if it's reasonable. Also, warning signs if the coder doesn't try to educate you in layman terms what is going on, and if he may be trying to hide something.

How could you have held him more accountable?

Stayed on top of the agreed milestones. I kept letting him slide with extensions. DO NOT PRE-PAY any milestones. Only pay as they are completed. Before the project, put in an agreed deposit to show your good faith and serious about the project, but for the rest of the project, pay after work is delivered. Moral of the Story: Stay on top of your coder. Pick up a vibe of how it's going, the more excuses, the tighter the leash. Stay on his Ass. Do not be afraid to do it.

What would you now do differently in the interviewing process to prevent this from happening?

I was focused if he was technically capable of doing the work, but didn't spend the time to thoroughly go through his past work and references, nor did I check with other coders in the community and see what his reputation is. (which his is piss poor I found out later), but generally a good coder will be active in the community and others will know about his quality of work. Moral of the Story: Go beyond technical capability. Check references, call other coders around the area and see what his reputation is. Talk to those he made sites for personally.

What sort of checks and balances would you put into place to ensure that quality work is now being done?

I messed up by 1) pre-paying milestones. MAJOR NO NO. 2) Showing trust and keeping the leash too long. Never assume a person is good and will deliver good work until they do it. Moral of the Story: 1. Always have a contract signed with clear deadlines and what is to be delivered. 2. Never prepay 3. Stay on his/her ass until he proves otherwise. 4. Get opinions or 'code-reviews' from other coders when work is delivered. 5. Use a credit card if possible to pay, so if things go to shit, you might have a chance with chargebacks.

[Taniwha]

Just a little grammar error on your front page,
"If someone requested a day off, you get a little reminder when trying to scheduling them." schedule*

And what template is that, I've seen the same for many websites and I want it

[Chaseb731]

James,

Sent you a PM

[JamesF]

@Taniwha - hm.. I think you may be referring to Fendza (which is a domain I sold off to schedulingapp.com). This thread is about Freelanceful.com

@Chaseb731 - Got it. I'll be on Skype a bit later on.

[theBiz]

James i would definitely get on top of that right away. Something simple like this and if they dont select one just prompt them before they can submit but it will be real nice to differentiate them come launch.


James id also like to give my opinion. This market is crowded IMO. I think there is opportunity but only if approached properly. I have lost a ton of money too when i first tried to get some websites made. You should only let some people on as providers. It sounds stupid but im serious. You should pay a really good web developer to call them, interview them online, whatever, and make sure they are capable, and if they get more than a few complains ban them. You can charge members 10x the money, because they will get 10x the work, or make 10x the commission however you monetize.

Vulnerable people, even people on here asking all the time will go to yoursite and it will get recommended like crazy. If you pre-scan providers and make sure there is no BS people on your site it will blow up. You will get articles written about how your site is so screened, people blogging that they got deneyed and such, its great for business. Most of these big sites have it covered already so you would just be competition directly otherwise.


make a video like this a show me the screening process.... done

http://www.rackspace.com/cloud/managed_cloud/

[Brander]

You should only let some people on as providers. It sounds stupid but im serious. You should pay a really good web developer to call them, interview them online, whatever, and make sure they are capable, and if they get more than a few complains ban them. You can charge members 10x the money, because they will get 10x the work, or make 10x the commission however you monetize.

Whoever solves the freelance outsourcing problem that exists now will become rich, very rich. I would pay premium to not have to go through the whole interviewing process and be GUARANTEED-or-my-money-back developer who would finish the work to spec and in time.

As it is local students work OK for me now (but there are not enough of them around to cater to a lot of companies) and I haven't been to any freelance site in years. The site that attracts me back and keeps me together with millions of people like me, will be a winner...