Thread: Jokes, Insults, Disrespect and More

You take your life in your hands. It might be safer skydiving with no parachute lol.

Wheels-

You've hit on something I care very much about, but don't often discuss.

We've had a lot of success on these forums talking about all kinds of things-- so I'm going to try:

Please take what I'm about to say as it's intended-- to share some feelings w/you-- NOT to call you out, put you down, or make you look bad.

If you feel any of those things while reading this, it is the shortcomings of my writing abilities, and for this, I apologize.

************************************************** *********************

I grew up with a bunch of middle class white boys, who thought lots of things were funny.

They told jokes about Ni**ers, Blonds, women in general, all kinds of "stupid" minorities, those w/different sexual orientations . . .

The list was endless.

In short, they considered anyone who wasn't like them fair game to joke about.

I never found this funny, and just figured I'd spend the rest of my life grinning sheepishly, laughing at jokes I felt were bigoted and painful.

Then, by pure chance, I moved out to Northern California to escape the snows of Michigan.

And found that there were millions of people out here who didn't find these jokes funny, either.

My "buddies" in the midwest didn't understand when I tried to explain.

Some wrote me off as a nutcase, now that I was "living in the land of fruits and nuts". Others just shook their heads and asked me if I was porking guys now that I lived in San-Fran-Siss-Co.

After a few years, I gave up trying to explain how some of this "humor" is, at its root, based on FEAR. Fear of women, blacks, gays-- or anyone that is different from you.

But I still bring it up, on occasion, trying to explain.

I'm used to getting a roomful of blank stares from those who refuse to look inside themselves to see why this is funny, to them.

But I'm not talking to these folks. I can't change who they are.

I post this info on this thread, on the off chance that someone else, out there, read your post, and feels the same way when someone jokes about people different from themselves

You don't have to laugh at things you don't feel are funny.

I didn't find your comment funny, Wheels.

I'm not balling you out, or berating you.

And I wouldn't presume to change you.

But I do want you to know that even if the whole room laughs, not everyone actually finds this kind of humor funny.

Thing is-- most folks will never, ever tell you this.

-Russ H.

My 0.02 on jokes/offensive commentary: I try to weigh carefully what I say and thus comment infrequently. I try to ignore several comments and take away the positive aspects of the threads. If I offend anyone or say anything inappropriate, please let me know. I like to maintain an open mind and do not willfully attempt to write anything hurtful. One of the problems with written communication is the lack of non-verbal cues (a major detriment to the text message common these days).

Anyway, a very interesting thread. I enjoy the discussion.

Good points, Diane.

We have a pretty good anti-spam policy around here. So good, in fact, that the community itself polices most of it.

I'm not sure how enlightened or interested the rest of the folks on this forum would be to learning how to tell jokes or make inferences without putting down others.

But I like the idea (love it, actually). You are right-- this is one of my hot buttons. But I keep it hidden most of the time because, well, I'm in the significant minority feeling this way.

What about it folks? Any ideas on how to make our forums more tolerant and welcoming of diversity?

-Russ H.

Sometimes doing nothing while you observe a "crime" is just as bad as doing the crime. I applaud you, Russ for bringing it up. It is disheartening to realize how much $#%&*@-ism is still a part of our culture.

I think that the online world contributes to the problem in two ways:

1) People seem to feel more courage when behind a computer screen. Start to behave in a way they never would in person.
2) It is so impersonal that often a statement or conversation is missunderstood. Sometimes it would be easy for one to feel insulted and the other to have no idea what happened. I think it is important to continue the conversation and work through it.... often, it could be nothing!

Also, there have been several circumstances lately in which the definition of a word in one person's mind is very different from the other person's idea. That can also lead to huge misunderstandings. (just what is a flip? )

One thing that has been driving me crazy of late is the assumption that a poster is a male.
I prefer if people keep it neutral unless you know for sure the poster's gender.

Originally Posted by Diane Kennedy

My concern is this forum is soon going to be "white males only need apply."

Since we are on the topic of insults, I find this comment and what it insinuates highly insulting.

Originally Posted by Russ H

Any ideas on how to make our forums more tolerant and welcoming of diversity?
-Russ H.

The topic of financial education is what it is ... it attracts a particular group of people (and yes, most of them are men as we are about 1:4 here). If wanted to start a Mixed-Martial Arts forum, you can bet 90% of the participants would be men. The topic of a "Fastlane" relating to financial independence will naturally attract YOUNG MEN - generation Y and Z (perhaps a generation that some would argue lack respect for their elders having grown up in the internet age where anything you say is shielded in anonymity)

I believe the self-policing that everyone does here has kept this place clean for the most part. If you expect a forum to run with thousands of members and not to have issues (disagreements, bad tact, misinterpretations, comments/jokes of poor taste ) then I don't know what to tell you.

The group does a fine job of putting the offenders in their place. Others who show zero respect for the rules and the members (racial comments,politics) simply are banned.

And I will add: I believe the guy making the comments will see the err of his statement and not defend it and even apologize. Hence he will learn from the mistake. I believe that is why we all are here ... to learn, and sometimes, to learn from our bad mistakes.

Originally Posted by PhxMJ

The topic of financial education is what it is ... it attracts a particular group of people (and yes, most of them are men as we are about 1:4 here). If wanted to start a Mixed-Martial Arts forum, you can bet 90% of the participants would be men. The topic of a "Fastlane" relating to financial independence will naturally attract YOUNG MEN - generation Y and Z (perhaps a generation that some would argue lack respect for their elders having grown up in the internet age whereas anything you say is shielded in anonymity)

I believe the self-policing that everyone does here has kept this place clean for the most part. If you expect a forum to run with thousands of members and not to have issues (disagreements, bad tact, misinterpretations, comments/jokes of poor taste ) then I don't know what to tell you.

The group does a fine job of putting the offenders in their place. Others who show zero respect for the rules and the members (racial comments,politics) simply are banned.

And I will add: I believe the guy making the comments will see the err of his statement and not defend it and even apologize. Hence he will learn from the mistake. I believe that is why we all are here ... to learn, and sometimes, to learn from our bad mistakes.

MJ, this brings some very interesting thoughts to mind.

As a guy in his 40s, I've seen some pretty radical changes in my life.

When I was born (1961), the American Psychiatric Association classified homosexuality as a disease-- a disorder that required treatment.

While being gay or lesbian in the US still comes with its share of dangers, things have slowly been changing. To the point that it's hard to watch a TV show without seeing an openly gay character, presented in a very positive light.

Our SF mayor, Gavin Newsom, has again started marrying gay couples-- now that the courts have declared gay marriage legal.

That's a pretty substantial change from requiring electro shock therapy for your "disease".

***

Other things:

When I was a kid, there were a *lot* of white folks who, openly, said very negative and disparaging things about folks of color (African Americans, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans, etc).

I've noticed a significant decrease in this over the past 20 years. But in all honesty, it may be due, in part, to my living in a different place (Northern California vs Detroit, Michigan).

In any case, even when I'm on the road at trade shows, it does seem like there is less "color bashing" and bigotry-- at least blatant, open bigotry. I know too well that there is a thriving underground of closet bigots who have learned to hide their true feelings so as not to upset others.

I guess that's a step forward. I'm not really sure.

*********

When I was little, I remember The Playboy Club being a really big deal. This pretty much fell out of favor as the women's movement gained strength.

When I was little, I heard all kinds of jokes about how dumb women were. Many (but not all) of these jokes have dried up (or become blond jokes). Note that I say not all. There still are a bunch-- just not as many.

I also remember *lots* of sexual innuendo jokes. Both women and men laughed, and there were LOTS of women who dealt with being backed up against a wall for a quick feel, or a slap on the butt, or a groped boob, an illicit hug, or some part of their anatomy pinched.

When I asked the older guys (40s, 50s) about this, I was told it was "all in good fun" and there was "nothing wrong with it." Some even went on to suggest that "the girls like it, but they've been taught to act like they don't".

Of course, as the womens' movement gained in strength, we all learned this was not the case for many, many women.

So over the past 20 years or so, we've seen a gradual removing of sexual innuendo and other things from US society (it still exists in many other parts of the world). In fact, this has become a legal issue for many companies and businesses that have been sued for sexual harassment.

****

Other changes in the past 40 years that come to mind:

As a kid, I was beaten. Not spanked. Beaten.

So were some of my friends. If you did something that was wrong, or disrespected your parents, you got cuffed.

These days, the same behavior is considered child abuse in the US. Parents who raise their kids as they were raised can easily be jailed, and have their children taken away from them.

Lots of changes in a relatively short period of time.

*****************

There are lots of other examples, but these are just a few that come to mind.

I am constantly amazed at the power of the internet, and the domino effects it has on society. Social customs now change at a much faster pace, in part because people have the anonymity or power of being behind the keyboard, as has been mentioned.

The internet can bring together very small groups of people and make them feel "normal" (or at least not outcasts). They can form a community.

Just one example: All kinds of sexual practices-- once considered perversities-- have now become accepted, or at least tolerated-- in many parts of society.

We can fear these changes, seeing them as a downfall of modern social structure.

Or we can embrace them, and add to the debate/discussion.

*******

We may be at this point with online tolerance and respect. I don't know.

MJ, surely you've seen great changes in your life. You've spent at least part of your life as a midwestern boy, like me. I'm certain there are things you see today that would NEVER have happened on the streets of Chicago.

I agree that, as a community, we can set examples and make others aware of things that might offend, or be inappropriate.

I'm not for making lots of rules, or creating a police state. We live close to the city of Berkeley, a great example of what can happen when good intentioned, kind-hearted people encourage and protect diversity: Some people abuse this, and become very mean-spirited towards others.

In effect, there are some people in Berkeley (and other places) who speak against intolerance and things they see as wrong, without realizing that they themselves lack the tolerance they so highly prize.

Just one example: Someone who wanted to tear down an old, unsafe military building to build much needed new office and retail space. The existing building had been unsafe, and abandoned, for years.

Berkeley preservationists and no-growth activists were able to successfully protect the building and make it so that NO ONE can do anything with it. This is crazy, as it is dangerous, and, as a military-style structure, is not something any liberal in Berkeley wants to see as representative of their community.

Just one example of tolerance gone amuck.

*******

Sorry for the long post. I'm certain we can make strides on these forums to improve the overall levels of respect and decorum. Speaking only for myself, I'm sure there are areas where I could use some "waking up" to see how things I write can be misconstrued.

I hope to we can continue to build this community, and make it a model for investment communities to come.

-Russ H.

WheelsRCool...

So glad to see the conversation continue. I think it is really important (even in the online world) to push through a misunderstanding or a difficult issue and come to some sort of resolution. Thank you for your comments.

I was also born after the sexual revolution. However, (perhaps because I am female) I still don't see "women jokes" or even "blond jokes" as funny. Why? Because I know from first hand experience that sexism is still alive and well today. In the not so distant past, I've had a banker act amazed because I knew what a CAP rate was, a realtor that refuses to discuss business with me.... will only discuss it with my husband (and even, when he is leaving messages for me will say things like, "When HE makes a decision about xxxx." I'm left thinking, 'we are an equal opportunity household here, buddy.'

I have consciously decided to let it go with him, as it is a religious decision for him, and I'm not interested in having that conversation with him (yet.)

Anyway - - - I can see where jokes would be "harmless" if the sexism or whatever-ism was truely no longer a problem. Unfortunately it still is a problem. Of course, we have come a long, long way . . . but it hasn't gone away completely.

I'm sorry, but what I see this doing is removing humor for our lives and making everyone walk on eggshells in business and personal life. Surely, we have other topics to discuss than to come up with theories of how to solve an unsolvable problem?

I agree that sexism is alive and well. Lord knows I've had my fair share of it too. I've had an employer corner me and push himself up against me. Back in the day, I had a fellow employee who would ring a bell, (I was a waitress and that was the sign that an order was ready) and make me walk all the way across the restaurant (it was a large place) and then when I'd ask where my order was he's say it wasn't ready- that he just liked to look at me- and he did this like 10 times a shift. I've had male tenants who would leave their rent money on their bed or make me hunt for it. I had a Realtor tell me that head Broker wouldn't consider me for a position as a commercial RE Broker because I was a woman and the field is full of "good ol' boys, and that really by not hiring me he's doing me a favor". I've had male employees call me a bitch under their breath when I corrected them. I've been called a dyke because I wouldn't go out with some guys and because I tend to play more in male arenas (poker, business, etc).

At the end of the day I decided that I could either get angry about it or chalk it up to those guys being douche bags (pardon my French). I don't waste any time being upset by morons. I just smile, think to myself, "Wow, you are a giant douche" and keep walking. However there is a difference between someone being a giant douche and telling a bad joke.

Wheels- your joke wasn't funny because it upset people from a certain era- it just wasnt' funny. It was about as funny as when Kramer told that "joke" about black people during a comedy routine. ...I've also been known to tell a few inappropriate jokes from time-to-time myself- so you're forgiven.

I don't think it removes humor at all, but illustrates the need to know your audience. There are certain things I might say to family members and close friends that I wouldn't say to business associates or online. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

It's just like the fact that I can call my brother a stupid idiot, but if you try it, watch out.

As far as the top coment goes I could have swarn I heard my dad say those exact words (jokingly as well) As I know I would never say them (not my taste/style) but verbally you really have to be there to understand much less appreciate the comment. I personally don't know any lady/woman would/could appreciate it but thats just me. Much along the same line as telling a man, " you have a sperm for a brain" in public or an open forum.

Originally Posted by PhxMJ

Originally Posted by Diane Kennedy

My concern is this forum is soon going to be "white males only need apply."

Since we are on the topic of insults, I find this comment and what it insinuates highly insulting.

in response...

I'm white, I'm male, and I'm American so by todays status quo I'm already screwed.

......