Thread: The 4 Hour Work Week Vs. Millionaire Fastlane

Preface: As part of this post, I was dying to include the video of Donny Deutsch (MSNBC, "The Big Idea") interviewing Tim Ferriss. I'm not sure if I saw it live on television or on the web, but if anyone can find it and post it, I'd really appreciate it; it's kind of hilarious how Deutsch, basically, tells Ferriss that he's full of shit.

One of the things that I most appreciated in MJ's book was that it seemed to be the first business/motivation book I've read in the past few years that had the balls to be 100% completely honest.

It was willing to put out there that "get rich quick" is possible, yet, at the same time, was willing to say it's not going to "just happen" because you are "thinking about it" or "manifesting it" (The Secret) and it's probably not going to happen if you are attempting to accomplish it in 4 hours a week.

It's the first book I can remember reading and thinking, "this guy is more concerned about helping/telling the truth than he is worried about spinning this in a way that will attract cult like followers." It really seemed like the sort of advice an ACTUAL successful business person would give to his/her children.

Now, I have never had the the luxury (yet) of pulling off a "4 hour work week," but, after reading it, I do think it saddled me with some additional guilt baggage that I didn't have before reading it.

Now...not only was I not exactly where I wanted to be yet, financially, but I was also working my ass off.

IMHO, this is one of the horrible negative side effects of the whole 4 hour work week thing."

Whereas MJ is saying, "Sure, you can achieve your goals and (eventually) freedom," Tim Ferriss seems to be saying, "You're a dummy if you have to apply the same sort of blood, sweat, tears and time that virtually every successful businessperson in history has had to invest."

On the other hand, there seem to be some areas where the books/concepts intersect, I'd be curious what others think.

And, as a side note...

What if you really like your work as much/more than most anything else?

What if working seems more attractive than dancing the tango in Prague?

Isn't one of the "indicators" of many successful businessmen that they "love their work?"

"4 Hour Work Week" is another masterful example of "Sell the Results, Not the Process".

Everyone wants to work 4 hours per week but it takes a lot of work to get to the point where you can do that.

I read the first edition of the book and it basically glossed over exactly WHAT you could do to make the kind of money that would allow you to live the lifestyle he proposes.

It was completely patronizing how he kept referring to having a business that let you work 4 hours per week as a "muse".

As if the idea of actually providing value to create an income was almost an afterthought to traveling around the world.

His points on time management had value but I think the average 40hr-per-weeker is just going to end up frustrated imaging it's much easier than it really is. Those who are already in a position to work that little are probably just smirking a little at how easy it ISN'T to create that kind of lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Neon

It was completely patronizing how he kept referring to having a business that let you work 4 hours per week as a "muse".

As if the idea of actually providing value to create an income was almost an afterthought to traveling around the world.

On a related topic, MJ talks about how it's 180 degrees wrong approach to start with a completely selfish approach/goal.

And, after being in my own online business, full time, for over seven years now, I found this to be one of the biggest revelations; at least the way he discussed it.

I know (mentally) the "right way" to do things and so, ultimately, I don't feel as if the fundamentals of my business are "so far off" in the sense that I started with an overall focus on the "needs" of my niche and each successive product has been created/marketed along the same lines. But...

In the day to day grind of figuring out the process and the next step it is FAR from my concern on any given day (the customer's needs), I am usually worried about my needs (keeping cash flow flowing today, this month) and it tends to create a vicious cycle of "one off" tactical plans, instead of a synthesized whole of a big picture, strategic plan/process.

One of the first things I'm doing (after reading MJ's book) is going back to the beginning and trying to remember the needs of those pesky people that pay my mortgage (customers) because I am sure this will have huge positive impact on my short-term and long-term processes and plans.

Which brings me back to Mr. Ferriss...

He doesn't address the REAL source of unlimited wealth: effectation and scale.

So...

Proposing that you can (selfishly) pick virtually any random business, based on making it fit YOUR selfish needs (i.e. I want to work 4 hours per week) and then, further, calling it a "muse" as if it's your friendly little Faeirie Nymph of wealth is just "off."

The goal is EXACTLY the same (freedom) but the suggested means to that goal are vastly different in value and honesty, IMHO.

To me, the beauty of 4HWW was the completely alternate viewpoint that you don't have to work 16 hr days to have the life you want. Hell, you don't have to do anything that this 'Matrix' world tells you that you have to do.

Live your life and make it count. Take action and take control of your life and do things because YOU think it is best (based on work and research) instead of what someone tells you or someone you know. Quit making excuses!!!!! Your life is yours and you are responsible for it.

Always wanted to travel? Travel. It isn't that hard. Can't travel because of work? Find a way to work differently or not work. Quit limiting yourself because you think it is hard. You CAN pull it off easier than you think.

That, to me, was what I got out of Tim. Very powerful stuff.

(how'd I do on this, Tim?)....think I'll send the link to Tim

------
As for MJ, bought the book but haven't made time to read it (yet). Too busy working on the business and not quite ready for it in details. Over the years at this forum (and before), I've taken the gist of MJ to be......

Quit making excuses. Kick ass. Solve a problem and the money will follow. Do something, today. Think big and scale it up. Eat ramen and kick ass. Short term misery for long term gain. Don't follow, lead.

(how'd I do on this MJ?)

Originally Posted by ZCP

Quit making excuses. Kick ass. Solve a problem and the money will follow. Do something, today. Think big and scale it up. Eat ramen and kick ass. Short term misery for long term gain. Don't follow, lead. How'd I do on this MJ?

Not to good. You've covered about 20 pages ... There are over 300 more.

I haven't read the millionaire fastlane yet. Was told I was getting it for my birthday, but it looks like I may have to go ahead and get it on my own. In due time.

But I read the four hour work week... And I liked it. It's introduced me to nearly every concept I've seen praised on these forums in it's own way (Leveraging, outsourcing, valuing time, building assets, covering liabilities with assets, strong and effective goal setting, taking action, building systems so you aren't being fruitlessly busy, possibly more.) and presented them in a way that quite frankly resonated well with me.

Because an idea, tool, or philosophy isn't restricted to the context it was delivered with, the book provides ample opportunity for doorway thinking. To you starting a business to cover the cost of a vacation or car might seem stupid... To me, that means developing the quickest and most easily profitable businesses can be used to fund bigger venues. If only it was that easy though, hmm?

Originally Posted by Rickson9

Whether the 4HWW has merit or not, author Tim Ferriss seems to be an exceptional entrepreneur.

"Timothy Ferriss is an American author, entrepreneur, and public speaker.[1] In 2007, he published The 4-Hour Workweek: Escape 9-5, Live Anywhere, and Join the New Rich, which was a New York Times and USA Today bestseller."

"In 2001, at the age of 23, Ferriss founded BrainQUICKEN, a San Jose-based online company that sells sports nutrition supplements.[5][6][7] He sold the company in January 2009 to an unnamed London-based private equity firm.[8] He is now a full-time angel investor and has invested in the following companies: Twitter, Posterous, DailyBurn (formerly Gyminee), Reputation Defender, Foodzie, Badongo, RescueTime, and SimpleGeo."

"He also acts as an advisor to StumbleUpon and Shopify,[9] which he has alluded to in interviews with Kevin Rose are in exchange for equity."

"He holds the Guinness Book of World Records' record for the most consecutive tango-spins in one minute.[11] Ferriss and his dance partner Alicia Monti set the record live on the show Live with Regis and Kelly.[12] Prior to his writing career, Ferriss wrote that he became the national champion in the 1999 USAWKF Sanshou (Chinese kickboxing) championship through a process of shoving opponents out of the ring.[13] In 2008, he won Wired Magazine's "Greatest Self-Promoter of All Time" prize[14] and was named one of Fast Company's "Most Innovative Business People of 2007".[15] Ferriss has also spoken at the EG Conference.[16]"

"His show "Trial By Fire" aired on the History Channel in December 2008. In the show, Ferriss had one week to attempt to learn a skill normally learned over the course of many years and in the pilot episode he practiced the Japanese art of horseback archery, Yabusame.[17]"

"The Aspen Institute named Ferriss a 2009 Henry Crown Fellow in March, 2009.[18] The fellowship "is designed to engage the next generation of leaders in the challenge of community-spirited leadership". Ferriss was one of 21 individuals from the U.S. named."

...

"Before the release of the 4HWW, Ferriss was an unknown.[24] He marketed the book heavily through bloggers with whom he created personal relationships.[24][25] He has since been praised for this technique.[24][26] The book eventually hit number 1 on both the New York Times bestseller list and the Wall Street Journal bestseller list."

"On December 14, 2010, Ferriss' second book, The 4-Hour Body was published by Crown Archetype. The book reached the #1 position in the New York Times bestseller list that week in the Hardcover Advice & Misc. section.[29]"

Source: Timothy Ferriss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In my opinion, problems arise when individuals who are not great entrepreneurs believe that they are, and spend years spinning their wheels.

Best regards.

Sounds like he is living the fastlane while promoting something else maybe?

No doubt an ambitious and talented guy though.

Originally Posted by Rickson9

Whether the 4HWW has merit or not, author Tim Ferriss seems to be an exceptional entrepreneur.

Except... the topic of my post was the merit of the 4HWW, not the real or (possibly) exaggerated claims of TF.

I was well aware of TF's "claims" as well as the non sycophantic chatter on the other side when I started the thread, but didn't mention it because I didn't see it as relevant.

The questions were...

1) Did others find the 4HWW valuable/helpful?

2) What did others think of the interesting/apparent places where 4HWW and Fastlane intersect?

Originally Posted by Rickson9

In my opinion, problems arise when individuals who are not great entrepreneurs believe that they are, and spend years spinning their wheels. Best regards.

But now that you've gotten my attention...

The REAL reason I would not compare the 4HWW favorably to MJs book has NOTHING to do with the real/fake success of their respective authors.

The 4-Hour Body: 60 Percent of The Time it Works Every Time! | Beyond Growth

(Just one of hundreds of similar thoughtful and rational deconstructions of TF's persona/marketing campaign as it relates to the content of his books.)

It has EVERYTHING to do with, "Does it rise above just motivational 'rah rah' and provide actionable, valuable information to readers that AREN'T Tim Ferris?"

I'm guessing that your comment is based on my sharing that I am constantly re-evaluating and "checking course" to ensure that I'm moving towards my still unmet goals?

If so, this, in my opinion, is a perfect example of the difference between TF and MJ and the difference in consequences of following their advice.

In the 4HWW world, work, struggle and failure are for "losers."

If you haven't EFFORTLESSLY become a multi-millionaire, mixed martial arts dancing queen by the time you are 25...all in a straight line...on your first try...in just four hours per week...something must be wrong.

BULLSHIT.

Based on the link in your signature, you are a young millionaire?

Congratulations.

I am sure that I could learn much from you.

But, as one of the "older guys" in this forum, someone that's studied success (and life) for my entire life, I'd be able to pretty confidently predict that, if you haven't yet, you will find yourself faced with struggles/situations that challenge you in ways that make you (slightly more) humble... If not financial, in some area... it's no reflection on you... just "a universe thing."

There are many pieces to the "living life successfully" puzzle and one of the more significant ones happens to be "What do you do when you're down?" and "How do you deal with missteps and failure and those (inevitable) challenges the universe throws your way?"

If you truly believe that "spinning wheels," by definition, makes you a loser... I sincerely hope that your future remains as simple and problem free as it appears to have been thus far. More likely, you'll find that these times of "wheel spinning" and struggle will make you an even smarter, stronger and, ultimately, happier person (because you've faced a real challenge and risen to it).

Part of the reason for my original post was that I do know what it's like to face struggle and the need to persevere and to invest LOTS of time and energy and WORK to overcome those challenges and I felt as if the 4HWW "might" have some negative consequences for people in that particular stage of their success journey because it (seems) to imply that work, by definition, is a bad thing and that if you aren't able to "ruthlessly" KNOW (magically?) in any given situation which of the thousand options in front of you happen to be the "20" part of the "80/20" equation...something's wrong...BECAUSE...it's so SIMPLE....and OBVIOUS...

Happily, I found that link to the TF interview in with Donnie Deutsch:

4-Hour workweek: How to escape your 9-5 job - Books - money - TODAYshow.com

After re-watching it, I can certainly understand TF's attractiveness as a "guru." He's undeniably smooth and well-spoken.

I just, personally, don't believe that he's much more than the latest incarnation of "smooth," "well spoken" gurus that are pitching dreams instead of process.

Donnie is no slouch. He's built one of the most successful advertising companies and he's had an avocation of interviewing many of the world's most successful business people about HOW THEY DID IT and he is evaluating the REALISTIC value of TF's advice to people OTHER THAN TF and he (like me) isn't buying it.

TF:

"I have nothing wrong with work ethic...only when it's applied to the wrong things."

What if it takes work (mental and physical) to get to the point where you finally figure out what the "right things" are?

TF:

"One hour of critical hard thinking can be worth a month of hard work."

Work smart, instead of hard? Wow, that's amazing advice.

What if your first five (or ten) plans developed by "critical hard thinking" are wrong and the market rejects them?

Was all of that time and energy wasted (because I wasn't in Thailand winning a dancing competition)?

Or was it valuable on it's own (hard work and facing challenges are a big part of what makes us fulfilled)?

One of the more persistent criticisms of TF is related: he focuses on "winning," per se, and shortcuts... not the deeper, more substantial needs/aspects of human nature...such as "hard work" and challenging one's self to overcome obstacles.

He (proudly) gives examples in his book, like where he "gamed the rules" to win an MMA battle by drastically dropping to a weight class far below his normal fighting weight, as if it is more important to "win" than it is to experience the "real stuff"...pushing yourself to your limits and going beyond them through HONEST competition(and, maybe, still losing).

My son is on the HS wrestling team.

TF's approach doesn't pass "the smell test" for me because I would never (out of love for my son) have him follow the TF approach to his wrestling career.

I can't hear myself saying to him, "Son, it doesn't matter how you get that trophy...it's just about the trophy. All that early morning/late evening training and pain that your wrestling coach is proposing is for 'losers.' Just do whatever it takes to win while you have tons of time to play 'Call of Duty.'"

Last year, his first year of wrestling (as a Sophomore this put him YEARS behind most of his team mates), he won a sum total of 0 matches. It was a steady and horrific stream of loss after loss.

My advice to him was, "Stick it out. Work Harder. Live in the gym and on the road. Study the technical stuff you're doing wrong...and get back on the F***ng mat."

All of which he did. He's gained 20 lbs of muscle in a year, an immense amount of additional endurance and technical knowledge and is now consistently winning in a weight class 20 lbs higher than last year (a significantly tougher class).

Whether he was winning this year or not, I'd feel pretty good about my advice and the results on him. He now has more confidence that he can overcome failure and difficulty and he's a stronger, better person, in general.

Was this bad advice for him?

Should he have just done more "critical hard thinking" (about ways to game the weight classes) so that he had more time for Xbox?

I doubt it.

And, if I wouldn't give that sort of advice to my son, it's probably not advice I'd be following myself.

Respectfully,

Robert

Robert it sounds like you already have a notion of taking anything involving Tim Ferriss and disregarding it. I can't say whether it's "right or wrong", but it seems silly to ask the question, and just denounce it.

Did others find the 4HWW valuable/helpful?

If you don't find it helpful then you read it "wrong". Perhaps it's not exactly new information for *everyone*, but it is good information to follow. That said, are you going to be working 4 hours weeks after reading it? Of course not. It's about building things (or taking current things) and taking yourself out of the stuff that wastes your time. Yes you are going to be investing a lot of time, but do it in a way that (if you so choose) you can take yourself out of it. Not as a starting today, you will only work 4 hours type of deal.

He doesn't explicitly state, or make note to clear it up (it'd hurt sales), to describe "work". IMO, he works a lot, but if he enjoys it, and it isn't the type of work that makes the day drag on (assembly line), then it doesn't seem to count as work for him.

Originally Posted by FDJustin

To you starting a business to cover the cost of a vacation or car might seem stupid...

On the contrary, I think doing that would be an amazing accomplishment.

Originally Posted by FDJustin

To me, that means developing the quickest and most easily profitable businesses can be used to fund bigger venues. If only it was that easy though, hmm?

Ultimately, I think this is the crux of why I feel queezy about TF's advice and find MJ's book to be truly insightful.

When you marry the goals (freedom), mindsets (I don't have to be part of the mediocre, poor, masses) and MATH (effectation, scale, magnitude) with the TRUTH that it will also take a ton of work and perseverance... you have something worth pursuing.

Once you no longer feel destined for the sidewalk and are using the correct MATH, you now have a better than ZERO chance of hitting your goals (material or otherwise).

But...

The FINAL key to the puzzle, IMHO, is being willing to trust the MATH enough to continue to apply it until it goes your way.

As MJ says in the book, "In business, you only have to be right ONCE to be hugely successful."

My guess is, that's assuming there may be lots of times you were wrong.

So...

Not that simple. But absolutely doable.

Let us know when you get that car!

Originally Posted by Icy

Robert it sounds like you already have a notion of taking anything involving Tim Ferriss and disregarding it. I can't say whether it's "right or wrong", but it seems silly to ask the question, and just denounce it.

There's a bit of truth in that. I'll admit that I am coming to the question with some opinions already.

But, in reality, I was (trying) to be open about the fact that the reasons I don't love the 4HWW is because, for me, it didn't seem to fit my reality and experience and I was curious if it was "just me."

Part and parcel of me advocating ( a bit) for those of us that have to rely on the perseverance part of the equation, is my willingness to admit "I could be wrong."

So, yeah...I DO have my opinions, but I really was curious what others thought.

Originally Posted by Icy

If you don't find it helpful then you read it "wrong".

See above. I could have read it "wrong." But, I don't think I was wrong to ask questions about it's "real world value."

Originally Posted by Icy

Perhaps it's not exactly new information for *everyone*, but it is good information to follow.

Agreed. If you limit it's value to the concepts in the book, only.

The problem is, like the example of the FAT guy leading the weight loss class in MJ's book, as a reader/human, it's hard to not evaluate the advice in the book relative to whether the author actually utilized the advice in the book to achieve what he has.

I am not a TF hater.

I am of the opinion that I could learn MUCH about the whole Carpe Diem approach to life from him. Say what you will about him, he appears to be an energetic, multi-talented guy that is passionate about life. Kudos to him.

The problem is, he's offering advice to others (supposedly) based on his own experience and there seems to be some evidence that the realities are far from the PR.

He (from my perspective) appears to be one in a long line of "business advice" authors that, primarily, made his money from selling a book about "how to make money."

There are big questions about his claims for the success of his nutritional line and the reality.

There are even bigger questions about the way he "really" achieved a 30 lb weight loss for his most recent book.

And, both are similar in this way...

If he lost weight in a way that I couldn't (really) replicate, would his fitness book be valuable to me?

If he made his money (really) in ways that are different than outlined in his book, would his business advice be valuable to me?

Originally Posted by Rickson9

Hi Bob, I'm not sure why you hate Tim so much.

Ugh. If anyone thinks I hate TF, let me correct you...I don't!

I am sure that there is much I could learn from him.

I (really) was just asking if anyone else had experienced the negative "4HWW" effects that I had (ambiguous guilt that I wasn't only working 4 hours per week).

Originally Posted by Rickson9

I also don't know how you know what Tim would say to your son unless Tim actually said it.

That's a fair statement. TF has not actually given my son any wrestling advice. And, I could be wrong about what he would actually say.

But, isn't it fair of me to assume that he'd suggest to my son that he do what TF did?

Originally Posted by Rickson9

With regards to the 'ease of success' my comment was more related to elephants trying to swim with the dolphins. Individuals would experience more success the sooner they realized that they were elephants.

Assuming you are putting yourself in the "elephants" category here, "Welcome fellow elephant!"

I wholeheartedly agree, and, in a way, is what I think I'm saying.

By all objective standards, TF is a dolphin (that's a good thing, right?) and, maybe for that reason, "this elephant" isn't finding his advice about jumping through flaming hoops to be super attractive...being an elephant and all.

Is this a bigger reflection on me than TF? Sure. Obviously.

Originally Posted by Rickson9

With regards to my success, it was given to me by life. It would be extreme hubris for me to believe that I can extract more success than my spiritual bank account can allow. I eternally grateful.

There have been no success, struggles or challenges in life for me, now or in the future. There is just life.

All the best.

Nice quote...especially the "there is just life" part. I know that one of my personal weaknesses is letting the struggles and challenges rise to higher status than I should.

I appreciate the thought.

I believe both books are great for motivation to get off your ass and do something but they are not anything alike after that. My take is that 4HWW is a great book for after you have become well versed and successful using MJ's methods. I don't believe you can start a business a be working four hours a week in the first couple of years. If you do start a business like that it would be the holy grail. The big difference in the books for me was the Fastlane was chocked full of concepts you can use whereas 4HWW was a self promotion of Tim Ferriss with lots of pages telling we what software, websites and services to use to pare down my workload.

4HWW offers a lot of inspiring insights and a little bit of a wake up call.

Does it teach you how to build a great business? Certainly not. Hell, Ferriss basically made his money in the early days of dropshipping and with one of the three Ps (pills, porn, poker). He sold a damn supplement online and was great at online/direct marketing. Thats it. The rest is him being an overachiever at all kinds of skillsets - which is great but really won't help you that much if you are looking to build a business.

Do you want to learn how he promotes his stuff, do you want to learn some of his techniques on how to make time and free yourself of some the mental weight you're carrying around with you? Yes.

Do you want to make your money by being yet another guy to join the "get rich quick and easy online" bogus gold rush by selling shit that people don't really need but that they still buy because you can catch them when they're emotionally vulnerable? Well, that's obviously your call.

I absolutely love both books. They're written by real entrepreneurs. They emphasize the importance of time, and show that making big money while being young is possible with a good idea and some luck + doesn't require working oneself to death