Thread: Learning to Program is STUPID!

Originally Posted by healthstatus

Yet all you do is say that outsourcing never works because the specs suck. So learning to program in a few months also makes you an expert at specifications and how to write your own app in a quality fashion? Now that they know your kungfu they will be able to anticipate SQL injection attacks, user stupidness, database table structures and indexing for speed. You say it is easier to create an app with frameworks, then what?? Oh, then they have to market the app, or is it Field of Dreams, make it and they will come???



Personal attacks, Really? I suggest you start your own thread and leave mine alone now.

Yeah let's chill out on the hostility all. Just because we may not all share the same viewpoints doesn't mean that any of us is any less intelligent and we are all entitled to our opinions and ways of doing things. I have followed every one of healthstatus's posts and admire/ lookup to, and have learned a great deal from him and others. These types of debates are healthy and often times open up peoples minds.


All the best,

Cory

Originally Posted by healthstatus

There are many more options than that. Not knowing what you think your price point for your software will be once you release it means you may need to tweak my suggestions here. 1) Can you find a regulatory consultant that just retired or is in the consulting business that you don't have to have full time? Can you cut that fee down to 1/3rd? 2) Can you get 2 or 3 of your future customers to commit to a 25% deposit on your project based on a 6 month delivery of beta level software and they get input into the design, at delivery of beta they will owe 50%, then the remainder on final delivery? 3) Check your coder pricing, I outsource some very complex projects to extremely talented coders that I pay about $3k/month (less than half your lowest rate) to get this first version going you could start there, then pull future iterations in house once you have sold enough copies to justify that, this would be better and faster than you converting from a spaghetti coder to a production coder.



I really don't agree.

Thanks, Healthstatus! I haven't though about trying to get customers to front a deposit. It is my goal to obtain 100 customers with my MVP, but really there is no reason I can't try to sell the concept before I have my beta.


The problem with outsourcing is twofold:
1. Quality management.
2. Quality of code.

And by quality control, I mean documentation and design controls (which most programmers know little about). This is something that I need done to at least ISO 9001 specifications. Not that I've tried (though I do know the market somewhat), but I'd be surprised if I can find local (as in the U.S.) talent for less than 100$ per hour that could meet my requirements. Of course, I'd love to be wrong .

The bottom line is there are somethings only a fool would outsource, and somethings only a fool would not outsource.

Unfortunately in my case, I'd be a fool to outsource it to any company that I could afford to outsource it to.

Let me be clear that I am not arguing with your premise. I actually agree that in a lot of cases outsourcing is better. I'm just trying to make the point that outsourcing is not always an option unless you have the money, and even then sometimes outsourcing won't cut it (you need in-house developers which means way more $$$ and infrastructure).

Originally Posted by healthstatus

Yet all you do is say that outsourcing never works because the specs suck. So learning to program in a few months also makes you an expert at specifications and how to write your own app in a quality fashion? Now that they know your kungfu they will be able to anticipate SQL injection attacks, user stupidness, database table structures and indexing for speed. You say it is easier to create an app with frameworks, then what?? Oh, then they have to market the app, or is it Field of Dreams, make it and they will come???

It's as much Field of Dreams as your market and the cash will start rolling in.. however this way they actually have a product... You obviously have no idea what you are talking about so it's a waste of time for me to even try to educate you.

It's really ironic that you are advocating that they learn marketing but obviously don't know marketing very well.

Personal attacks, Really? I suggest you start your own thread and leave mine alone now.

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you made this thread with provocative title and then start to cry when somebody disrespectfully disagrees with your idiotic notions about things you clearly have no experience with.

Yeah let's chill out on the hostility all. Just because we may not all share the same viewpoints doesn't mean that any of us is any less intelligent and we are all entitled to our opinions and ways of doing things. I have followed every one of healthstatus's posts and admire/ lookup to, and have learned a great deal from him and others. These types of debates are healthy and often times open up peoples minds.

If you actually read the sentence, I'm just mirroring what he advices others to do. So if he reads that as a personal attack when it doesn't contain anything else except the method he advocates others to take.. then maybe it's time to look at the mirror and stop blaming other people.

Look few sentences above, there's your personal attack. I'm not the type of people who silently smiles while somebody says something idiotic and tries to pass it as wisdom. I really suggest you use your own brain and stop looking up to people like healthstatus. In the worst case you are going to follow some of his advice. Anybody who starts a thread like this isn't worth of listening to.

Cory has already requested that everyone chill out. This thread has been reported for the personal attacks. I honestly have not read the complete thread so I am not taking sides. We need to learn to agree to disagree and stop at that.

If the attacks do not stop the thread will be locked.

Originally Posted by Runum

This thread has been reported for the personal attacks.

Wow, people seriously report this? You guys should develop a thicker skin, thats hilarious.

Originally Posted by qhead

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about so it's a waste of time for me to even try to educate you.

I think the only thing that is obvious around here is you have very few posts, no reputation and you like to type a lot.

I am doing fine without your "education". My primary website has had over 8 million visits in the last 12 months, I have multiple websites making 6 figures a year and my software is purchased and used by Fortune 50 companies on their websites. I have been online building websites since 1995, everything self-funded. I know how to code, I know how to market. I also share my insights on forums like this, and based on the reputation rating and likes I have, others have found the information to be useful and positive. I have shared my websites and stats on this site for others to examine and model. All you have shared is rambling diatribes and resorted to name calling.

Originally Posted by qhead

then start to cry when somebody disrespectfully disagrees with your idiotic notions about things you clearly have no experience with.

My track record makes it obvious who the idiot is in this conversation.

Originally Posted by qhead

I'm not the type of people who silently smiles while somebody says something idiotic and tries to pass it as wisdom.

You are also not the type of "people" to listen to someone with experience and wisdom and learn from it.

Originally Posted by healthstatus

I am doing fine without your "education". My primary website has had over 8 million visits in the last 12 months, I have multiple websites making 6 figures a year and my software is purchased and used by Fortune 50 companies on their websites. I have been online building websites since 1995, everything self-funded. I know how to code, I know how to market.

Game-Set-Match.

I think the whole point here is, you don't have to agree, and you don't have to post in this thread. The thread title was to get peoples attention, which I think it did. While I may not agree with everything healthstatus has said in this post, he has some excellent points that you can learn from.

You absolutely can "tuck, barter, and exchange" skills. Is this the approach you want to take, qhead? Perhaps not. No need to go on a bender.

Originally Posted by healthstatus

I think the only thing that is obvious around here is you have very few posts, no reputation and you like to type a lot.

Really, the worth of somebody's posts depends on their post count? This is good to know for anybody around here. Next time (which won't come obviously) I say something to you I'll keep in mind to first write a lot of positive posts so I suddenly come credible.

I am doing fine without your "education". My primary website has had over 8 million visits in the last 12 months, I have multiple websites making 6 figures a year and my software is purchased and used by Fortune 50 companies on their websites. I have been online building websites since 1995, everything self-funded. I know how to code, I know how to market. I also share my insights on forums like this, and based on the reputation rating and likes I have, others have found the information to be useful and positive. I have shared my websites and stats on this site for others to examine and model. All you have shared is rambling diatribes and resorted to name calling.

Oh wow, now it makes sense, I should listen to you because you post at some online forum and people press a thumb up icon. Not to mention that your insights are positive! I think educating you would land somewhere around priority googol so don't worry, I won't.

But in all seriousness, I listen people who I respect and the fact that you start a thread like this doesn't give very intelligence first impression. Your follow up posts haven't improved that impression, quite the contrary. Sorry, but the fact that you have websites that makes money couldn't impress me less. I have made enough money and seen enough people to make a lot of money that I really don't associate making money with being worth of attention in anyway. But I do have to thank you for reminding me again why money doesn't correlate with anything real. There's a insight for all you new comers. Don't know if it's positive enough for you but frankly I really don't care - if you can't take it, there's really nothing I can do.

Just for the sake of sharing can you please tell me the name of your company so I'll make a note never to do business with you or your company.

My track record makes it obvious who the idiot is in this conversation.

You are also not the type of "people" to listen to someone with experience and wisdom and learn from it.

Do you realize at all how ridiculous this sounds when you know absolutely nothing about me? For all you know I could be Richard Branson or Sergey Brin. There's a reason why I don't share anything identifiable about my businesses... I have seen so many people like you but nowadays I tend to avoid reading forums like this because folks like you make me lose my faith in the human intelligence.

this has gone of course a bit

lol

Originally Posted by qhead

But I do have to thank you for reminding me again why money doesn't correlate with anything real.

Sorry, but its symbolic to how much value you have given. Money is highly correlated to value.

Originally Posted by qhead

Just for the sake of sharing can you please tell me the name of your company so I'll make a note never to do business with you or your company.

Originally Posted by qhead

There's a reason why I don't share anything identifiable about my businesses...

So you call him out on the very thing you refuse to do.

Originally Posted by qhead

For all you know I could be Richard Branson or Sergey Brin.

After looking at the registration for your account, it's safe to say you're not.

Originally Posted by qhead

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you made this thread with provocative title and then start to cry when somebody disrespectfully disagrees with your idiotic notions about things you clearly have no experience with.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying - the delivery, not so much.

Originally Posted by healthstatus

Learning to program is stupid!

Count me in as *stupid* -- I'd rather be stupid and rich, than smart and poor.

In all seriousness, I didn't comment on this thread because I feel it was delivered in an "all or none" fashion -- "learning to program is stupid" is an absolute statement that leaves no room for interpretation w/respect to individual strengths or weaknesses.

It reminds me of the old "Is going to college stupid?" question that gets so heatedely debated around here -- the true answer depends on the person. As qhead mentioned, some people can pickup the nuances rather quickly, others cannot. Some can delegate/lead/outsource better than others.

This is not a "one size fits all" answer, just like the age old college question.

My take.

Hope the two of you take a deep breath and step back from the conversation -- after reading all of it, I think both of you make some very valid points that everyone can ascribe to their personal situation.

Originally Posted by MJDeMarco

Count me in as *stupid* -- I'd rather be stupid and rich, than smart and poor.

I might make this my new signature.

Originally Posted by qhead

Just for the sake of sharing can you please tell me the name of your company so I'll make a note never to do business with you or your company.

Thanks that would be awesome. HealthStatus.com, Inc. - Health Status Health Risk Assessments and Health Calculators and Health Risk Assessment Software - HRA | ** Recommended **

Originally Posted by MJDeMarco

Count me in as *stupid* -- I'd rather be stupid and rich, than smart and poor.

In all seriousness, I didn't comment on this thread because I feel it was delivered in an "all or none" fashion -- "learning to program is stupid" is an absolute statement that leaves no room for interpretation w/respect to individual strengths or weaknesses.

I wanted to make sure my post got read, and a controversial subject line is always a good start!

MJ, you and I were programming our initial sites back at a time when if it worked most of the time, it was cool and above average. I believe you didn't get rich off your programming skills, you got rich with your marketing of products (limos.com and TMF) that filled a need.

I just see thread after thread of people saying, I learned HTML in a few weeks, so now I am going to write my social app for 100,000 users after I spend 3 more months learning programming because I am broke and there are not any other options. Today, if your app isn't solid, secure and responsive, you won't get a second chance with users.

If you spend your time learning to program, you still have to spend time to learn how to sell it. My advice, learn how to sell first, then you have options on deciding whether to hire or outsource to a skilled programmer, hire a team, or since you have a stream of income, you can take 3 years and really learn to code.

Originally Posted by MJDeMarco

Sorry, but its symbolic to how much value you have given. Money is highly correlated to value.

Well of course, I agree with you on that and I should have been more specific. So let's specify, to me money doesn't have any correlation with wisdom in anyway. By the way, so if money is symbolic to value you have given, how does non-profit organizations fit in? I can't remember if you said something about this in MF but I'm interested to hear what you think about non-profits. A bit off-topic but this whole thread is pointless so I don't think nobody will report you to moderator.

So you call him out on the very thing you refuse to do.

Notice that it was after he was making waves for himself about being public about his businesses. I really don't give a shit about his businesses but I just wanted to check out the sites, and let's just say it was pretty much what I expected. I refuse to share details about my businesses because I simply want to be anonymous.

After looking at the registration for your account, it's safe to say you're not.

No shit But I guess you understood the point that it's a bit ridiculous to say what healthstatus said without actually knowing anything about the other person. He has no idea whatsoever what is my "track record". For all he knows I could be the CEO of some service you or he uses daily... Actually even if you check my IP, it won't really tell you anything because I'm always connected via either VPN or TOR.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying - the delivery, not so much.

Well, I know this sounds harsh but try to understand the point behind this: the delivery really doesn't concern me. I place the responsibility of extracting the information on the reader. Positivity and negativity are just concepts that your brain carries so if you can't find information from negative text, you are missing half of the spectrum - but it's individual choice and we both know what choice the majority makes. You should know, you are the one who has the black book with all the negative feedback

Like you I consider all feedback I get without placing that much weight on whether it seems positive or negative. Like you I noticed a long time ago that everything that happens to you can be traced back to your own behavior. However all the points that healthstatus made are invalid because they really don't offer anything else than opinions without any backing up. The fact that he made some sites that makes money doesn't really qualify him for giving advice on anything else than something related to his website. Telling people that programming is stupid because you can learn marketing and magically the dough starts rolling in... do I even need to continue? If he got offended, too bad. Like I said earlier, if you make a dumb comment to me, I'll tell you about it.

Originally Posted by healthstatus

I just see thread after thread of people saying,

Unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast...

Just like thread-after-thread of "$100 to $100 million in 100 days!" -- it get's really old.

And you know what else gets old? "I want to start a lead generation company!" -- why? Because I did it YEARS ago? FN YEARS AGO.

Also old: "I have this great idea!!! Is it Fastlane!?"

That said, I advocate doing EXACTLY what will work for you. For some, that means learning how to program. For others, it's outsource, delegate, and partner.

And yes, ultimately all entrepreneurs must learn to be market and sell because entrepreneurship is always about selling: You sell to to potential customers, to potential employees, to potential investors, etc ... the "selling" really never stops.

Originally Posted by healthstatus

What qualifies you?

Yawn, I'm going to follow theag's lead and express myself with visuals.