Thread: Learn to Program vs Outsourcing

Hi Frenchy,

You don't even need to learn how to program to really put up a website. You could learn to use a CMS like WordPress or Joomla. If you become good with a platform like these you can put up some really nice website, especially with some of the frameworks available for either of them. This way you put a website and you still retain control but without having to learn programming.

Just a thought

Matt

Originally Posted by frenchy

I'm still learning programming today and I still have lot to learn

I have been coding for 30+ years and can say the same thing.

Originally Posted by frenchy

but what I say is it doesn't take that much time to reach an OK level in programming. However, it takes process...

Right now, you have no idea how much you don't know.

Do you think Zuckerberg at Facebook is writing code and adding features? Hire a programmer, then spend ALL your time working on marketing, copywriting and getting traffic, that is BY FAR much more important to know than how to code.

Life is a game of time and money. You can take the time to learn programming and save the money, or you can hire a programmer and use the time you're saving to make more money. I was furious at myself after spending months of late nights, being locked in my office away from my fiancee who was sitting in the living room, forgetting to eat, getting up early, and consuming my 2-day weekends teaching myself how to build my first website just to get no sales once I launched.

Either way, relinquishing control is not a necessary trade-off of hiring someone else. You don't have to employ a programmer; you can contract one. If you do contract one, you have the option to retain the rights to any work completed by the programmer through a well-contructed written agreement.

This goes to both healthstatus and Pinnacles points - there is much easier ways to get websites built. Do the outsourcing, it is so much easier that doing it yourself and then you can focus on the really important stuff as mentioned above. if you want to retain control, well that part is easy. Like Pinnacle says have a well contructed written agreement and setup your programming to be paid for on a milestone basis, not an up front basis. This way you only have to pay if it is exactly what you wanted because they have the completed the milestone to your specifications. This is the way alot of work on Elance gets done. If you don't approved the milestone Elance doesn't release the money to your contractor.

Yeah frenchy, you NEVER stop learning..lilterally every few years they change the languages/libraries/platforms..etc. The big reason that I would worry about is having my idea stolen! If you remember....it's alleged that mark zuckerberg stole facebook from some other people and even went as far as stalling their development. He never admitted to it but he did pay them a hefty settlement to the tune of several million dollars. Now, I'm already a programmer and I"ve been learning for years now so it's not as much of a hassle for me...but overall I'd encourage people to learn....So think twice before you brag about that "cheap" programmer that you found...any one of them could steal your idea(s).....

Originally Posted by frenchy

Guys, nobody's talking about control. If you launch a company whose revenue depends entirely on a website, isn't it wiser to learn programming (and hell, it can just take a few month while doing something else besides) rather than outsourcing the control of your website to somebody else that you have to call every time you want to change a feature?

Another thing. You have to pay the programmer, while when you code you don't. The other option is website editor like Wordpress, but can you really do all the php/java exactly as you want with this kind of website editor (I've never used it, that's why I ask)?

Personnally, It took me a few months (about 4 months) to learn basic html/css/php/mysql and to be able to lauch something. I don't say I was good, but I was good enough to lauch a prototype or a webiste for my friends. I'm still learning programming today and I still have lot to learn, but what I say is it doesn't take that much time to reach an OK level in programming. However, it takes process...

Believe me it's great to know how to program. Most people don't even know that they can create a website on their own computer, with no internet. Open your notebook, write something, save the file with the extension ".html" at the end, open it with your browser and here it is! Yes I know... but most people I meet don't even know that.

Originally Posted by frenchy

Personnally, It took me a few months (about 4 months) to learn basic html/css/php/mysql and to be able to lauch something. I don't say I was good, but I was good enough to lauch a prototype or a webiste for my friends. I'm still learning programming today and I still have lot to learn, but what I say is it doesn't take that much time to reach an OK level in programming. However, it takes process...

It looks like we are at basically the same area as it comes to programming. I made a whole thread the other week about how I think it is great to learn programming and that it will save a lot of money. Basically advocating doing it yourself. I know HTML, CSS, PHP, MySQL, and some Javascript stuff. I build a website and wanted to turn it into an iPhone app.... went on odesk.com and now my opinion is changed. Instead of having to learn a whole new language and take months to get there, I am paying a guy on that site less than $400 to make the app for me and it will be ready in less than 7 days.

So my old mindset against outsourcing has somewhat changed (with the fastlane mindset in mind). I am glad that I have the knowledge under my belt of at least those programming languages for the purpose of knowing how to "talk the talk" when working alongside developers. Yes, I am going to push myself to learn more and keep building sites myself, but there are definitely benefits of outsourcing to save the time and effort.

All that matters in this game is getting customers. Not having a pretty site you built yourself. Learn how to market/write copy/sell. Programming and coding is hourly work that is EASILY outsourced.

I am a developer, and I can tell you that most outsourced projects fail. Hell.. I see them fail, and I work on these failures and take thousands of dollars off them sometimes. Where it all falls apart is their ability to understand the technology/platform they want to develop on and then down the track realise that they can't just "tweak" something to add in a new feature, they need to start over. They also can't explain what they want properly, and then crack the shits when they don't get it. Ever tried playing that game where you're blindfolded and have to instruct a partner how to draw what is on the whiteboard? Yeah, it ususally goes something like that.

If you aren't going to learn how to code you should at least understand basic database structures and get your coding skills up to "maintenence" level, in that you can open source code, and find/replace things, copy/paste things, and make minor adjustments yourself, otherwise it's going to cost, and you're going to be at the mercy of an external company everytime you want to make a minor adjustment.

It's a lot better knowing how to code yourself, I have worked in IT for 5 years since I was about 17, so I'm 22 now, and it's been worth it, it's a long-term thing, but whatever my mind can conjure up, I can create it EXACTLY as I see it, and have full, complete, 100% control over it. Outsourcing can work, but it's almost like buying an apartment and handing over the master key to a stranger. They can change the locks and kick you out anytime they want, and then you're up shit creek without a paddle.

Tread cautiously, and good luck.

PS: For those saying they just don't "get" coding, download videos and do the basics until you do. Coding is just a series of instructions written in another language. Learn how they work in plain enlish first.

eg "Check the database to see if this user has registered before, if he is registered, then send him to this screen, otherwise, prompt him to register"

translates to if $user_name_registered != '0' { location:replace:here... }else{go to register screen}

Obviously that's not a valid statement, but just think of code in plain english first, and then figure out how to turn it into a language that the computer understands, that's basiaclly all you are doing. It's not scary, and it's not imposslbe to learn it yourself, given the fact that we live in the Information Age - you can access anything you want, in seconds. It's never a matter of can't. it's a matter of "I won't/I lack conviction"

Originally Posted by fastlaneCoder

but overall I'd encourage people to learn....So think twice before you brag about that "cheap" programmer that you found...any one of them could steal your idea(s).....

I think your missing the point, coding is not the skill that will make you successful.

if you wanted to rent an office, do you learn how to buy raw land? do you learn how to pour concrete? do you learn building codes?

all to have an office?

instead of where you could just pay "rent" and be done with that mess. coding is a commodity and getting cheaper all the time.

last week we launched a website that is doing over 1K per day in NET profit. I think we paid 750 to a graphic designer and 1500 to a coder to get it all together.

but we had a REALLY clear picture of

The market,
the audience,
the thought process they go through
the user experience we wanted them to have
the cost of customer acquisition
the financial model that would make the numbers work,
the sources of traffic
the cost of that traffic
the infrastructure
the product,
the legal work
the back end sales
the funnel format
the message
the competition
the scale
the speed
and alot more.

if we had learned to code that, we would spend another 9 months or more to learn enough to make what this guy did in a week. we focused on all the other things that allowed us to become profitable within 24 hrs. so it was 5 months of work, to be profitable withing 24 hrs of the coding being done.

if your trying to figure code out, its better to get a coder friend to explain what you may might need.
buy them lunch, or hire them to help you find a cheaper coder or a competent coder. and focus instead on

1. getting the cash to launch
2. finding out the information above,
3. getting clear on the process, and practice execution.

I want you guys to remember WHEN MJ did his site. coders were the high cost item to get a product launched. THEY were the barrier to entry now they are not.
he had to learn coding because it would have been expensive to hire one.

he made the perfect decision AT THAT TIME to learn to code. it gave him an edge in the market.

you can't use his exact model with today's market dynamics. Coding is not the same problem it was then

an example is the APP coder market, 3 yrs ago it was SUPER expensive to code for iphone even a simple app was 15K to start. now you can get them done and to market for between 500 and 1000 on low end markets. and maybe 5K for more complex ones.

they are expensive coders still, for apps, but the market is falling fast due to supply and demand. the more important skill now in apps, is the after launch market, when you have to promote the app and get market share and downloads. THATS the skill shift many markets experience.

long term a sales skill, will help you more than a coding skill, a promotion and traffic skill will help more than graphic design.

learning to manage, learning to raise money, learning to sell, learning to lead. all higher value skills.
I think the code / not code debate is really more market focused (need?) meaning what is the market for coders. when they are expensive and are the barrier to entry then learn it.

when its NOT the barrier to entry. it is simply a market that you try to purchase the best skill for the job, instead of laying concrete for your next office...


Last thing, MJ laid out the formula, NECST.
I don't think it meant coding....

Z

coding is a commodity and getting cheaper all the time.

It's a commodity for applications that can deal with certain inefficiencies. Which frankly I think is most everyones projects here, but once you start getting into much more interesting applications, or even just larger, it's not so great to just pass it onto a cheap coder.

Nevertheless I agree with you post in whole, but going for the cheap coder can end up being a huge time waster too. Again, not so much a problem for the people here who need to get a working product out before worrying about problems that could eventually arise with a cheap coder.

Originally Posted by Icy

It's a commodity for applications that can deal with certain inefficiencies. Which frankly I think is most everyone's projects here, but once you start getting into much more interesting applications, or even just larger, it's not so great to just pass it onto a cheap coder.

im not advocating cheap coders, as much as I am saying hiring any coders especially, qualified coders, has become a commodity.

and you upgrade your coders to the size and complexity of the project your doing.

more time spent on the need, or finding the entry point, or working out the scale, is far more valuable than than learning a programing language that will change with the next alteration of the technology.

So in my opinion, sidewalkers focus on coding,

Fastlaners focus on NECST and building a business.

thanks for the comments though. very thoughtful

hope that helps
Z

Gotchya - I'm definitely more of a coder than a businessman, so every once in a while when I see commodity and coder in the same sentence it kinda gets to me :P

Slowly getting better at separating the "ego boost" from writing good code vs writing code to get the job done still a bit of an internal struggle, haha

Originally Posted by Icy

Gotchya - Slowly getting better at separating the "ego boost" from writing good code vs writing code to get the job done still a bit of an internal struggle, haha

I was a landlord, and it took me a while to put down the paint brush, and focus on what really made me money.
-painting apartments was not it -

Everything is moving too fast to learn how to perform the operations of the machine, you need to create the machine. I used to think like that, which im sure almost everyone did. The sad part is one day when your done creating your first masterpiece you realize customers dont come by osmosis like you thought they would, no one knows/cares who you are.

Programming is the same as anything, your either making pizzas or opening a pizzeria in town because 80 percent of the town is Italian and there is not pizzerias.

You are either going to be that 70 year old man still rolling doe or that guy leveraging every "machine" or operations he develops. It was said above but things are too complex and there is a guy out there for $10 per hour you can hire tomorrow that knows more than you will ever know, seriously.

So there it is, swing the 10 bucks per hour or take 1 year trying to learn and still not even be close to him. If i could go back 1 year ago i would have told myself:

Build a landing page with a product for $100, try to make money in 1 month. Id be so much further if i focused on the only thing that matters in life... knowing how to get a customer to my door, for less than whatever i net off their sale.

Cheap or not, you still lack control, and also - if your idea really is such a great idea, the developer isn't a dumbass, they'd probably just do it themselves. You'd need to outsource modules of the application to different people.

Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not feasible. You need to make that call as every scenario is different - eg a game might be OK to build once and run out, however a soscial networking app may need to be tweaked/adjusted quite frequently to maintain relevance and market share.

the only thing that matters in life... knowing how to get a customer to my door, for less than whatever i net off their sale.

This.

Programmers love programming; generally speaking they couldn't care less about sales and marketing so there is zero thought about them wanting to or being able to take the concept and run with it themselves. It is mind boggling all of the projects and inventions that never left the ground because their creators didn't trust others enough to tell even a single person about it. IMO it makes sense 10 times out of 10 to outsource it if the goal is to to be a biz owner and not an hourly worker.

Originally Posted by Icy

Gotchya - I'm definitely more of a coder than a businessman, so every once in a while when I see commodity and coder in the same sentence it kinda gets to me :P

I have been a programmer for a long time, I realized the amount of time I wanted to write code was holding me back. Write specs, you still get the juice from the thought process, but your "minions" can do the shovel work just as well (if you give them good specs) and you can have 3-4 projects going at the same time.

Originally Posted by fastlaneCoder

So think twice before you brag about that "cheap" programmer that you found...any one of them could steal your idea(s).....

NDA's