Thread: Learn to Program vs Outsourcing

I am interested in building an online business, I know html and basic css. I have looked into outsourcing coding, but I always chicken out and I don't pull the trigger as I don't have the $$ to pay someone and if they screw it up I am out of pocket, have no business and no knowledge how to create a new one. I think I am leaning towards learning it myself, because at least for me, my lack of knowledge in this area is really holding me back.

I have been toying around with Wordpress, and have used Wordpress developers in the past. In all honesty, Wordpress is easy as hell and I am often astounded how fast they can set nice looking sites up with very little time. I want to learn WP myself to see if I can do it. I am the farthest thing from a programmer, but tinkering around and picking up stuff has been helpful.

@Milkanic What would you suggest to learn php to bridge the gap to learning python (ie from the book you recommend) and why do you recommend python?

I really think learning even to a basic level would help me move my project into, well actually existing as the fear of the unknown (advanced coding) is holding me back from doing anything. But I do understand your point of view Zendolphin!!

Originally Posted by mapaul04

I would just outsource the job. I would suggest creating mockups of your idea showing exactly how you want it to function then going to a website like odesk elance etc and hiring someone. If you have the mockups it will make communication much easier.
Your project sounds pretty simple but you also weren't that specific so who knows. If you knew programming you could tell your outsourcer exactly what to do and that would probably save you some money but I don't think its worth it from the sound of your project. Just give them your mockups and tell them what you want and they will do it, it may cost you a little more (than if you were an expert programmer) but its worth it.
With that being said if this isnt a one time thing and you plan on creating other websites it probably is useful for you to start learning code. However assume it takes a year to learn what you need to know to create this idea. That year of time is far more valuable than the $1000.00 itll cost to build your site. Spend the $1000 now get the site built and spend the rest of the year getting paying customers. In the meantime you can learn basic code so that in the future you can make the easy edits and updates the site will need.

This pretty much sums up the thoughts that have been going through my head. I don't have a great desire to learn coding, but after plenty of research I feel that services that can be created and provided online can generate HUGE numbers all while having the ability to #1 Be leveraged #2. Grow Exponentially #3 Originate from a simple idea that meets a simple need. That said I began looking lately for a need that could fulfilled with a simple online service. I finally discovered a great idea and bounced it off of some of the tougher critics I know and I really feel that it would be a simple, but easily scalable website for generating income in potentially exponential ways. I know what to use and how to implement revenue generating material in a website and I know how I want it to work and how it should look on the front end. I am just simply lacking the skill to create it on the backend. I am starting to lean towards just outsourcing it and learning basic code in the mean time. Any suggestions on how/what to use to create a mockup for my future freelance hire?

You could go either way with this. But if you hire someone, you must be sure to pay attention. Learning to program will take you some time (depending on how much time you have at your disposal). I don't think it would hurt you to learn how to program but it's not for everybody. Some people just can't take sitting in a chair that long and looking at line after line of code, it just drives them crazy!

When it comes to web projects, my language of choice is PHP. Others may use a .NET language, Java, RoR (ruby on rails) or python to name a few. I chose PHP because of the wider availability of hosting options and free learning materials, and PHP hosts is usually a little cheaper than Java (you can host on windows or linux/bsd), .NET and Ruby on Rails. There also was a wide array of libraries and frameworks and existing open source projects like shopping carts, and wordpress, and blogs and Content Management Systems, user authentication libraries and so on..etc.

This is not to say they don't exist in other languages, but PHP just seemed to have more. So if I wanted to, I didn't need to hand code a shopping cart or a CMS (If you ever need one of these things the better option is to find something that works and use that...it will get you off the ground faster, and the code has already been tested/used and debugged more so there's already a wider support base)

A good approach would be to work through the examples (in the "how to program in language X" book of your choice) and gradually add more of your actual fastlane project functionality instead of what's in the book (Those examples are often trivial and are usually only good for teaching language syntax). So instead of building whatever trivial software that's in the book just gradually use what you learn to make your fastlane project and do this through several iterations!

If this is a web project, you'll also need a backend DB (database). Frankly, you can't go wrong with MySQL. It works for very small projects, and it scales all the way up to companies as large as facebook. Nearly All hosts (except .NET) hosts come with MySQL databases so there's a wide base of support! AND IT'S FREE!! In order to deal with Mysql you'll need to know a little about SQL (Server Query Language), but due to modern technology you may never need to manually type a database query (I haven't done so in a couple of years). This is possible because of modern ORM (Object relational Mapper) technology. If you don't understand some things don't worry, you can just look them up on google and wikipedia (the Programming articles are very accurate).

To design your web page you'll need to know about HTML and CSS, JavaScript. These are not hard and are straightforward. You can learn a lot of the things that I have mentioned with just a few books on Amazon, google searches and by spending time behind the keyboard!

P.S. - It doesn't matter which language you choose for your dynamic web pages (PHP, Ruby on Rails, Java, Python, C#..etc) so do not get caught up in the "religious wars" about which language is superior. There are always programmers who say "language x is better than language y" but at the end of the day you can make a good responsive web application with all of them! I suggest PHP, but only because that's where my strength lies. I will mention that if you choose C# you'd better get a copy of Visual Studio (There are free versions online available at microsoft.com, but I think they are limited in some way).

If you choose to learn to write software, I wish you the best ! Good Luck!

EDIT: You're only 21, you've got time!! If you start learning now you could be good enough to tackle any project idea that comes your way in no time (actually anywhere b/t a few months to a couple of years..provided you work really hard to learn what you need). But strongly consider using all the available tools at your disposal. If you need a shopping cart, or a blog, or content management system find and use one that already exists (You don't pluck your own chickens and slaughter your own cattle do you?No! You just get meat from the store!). I know I'm repeating myself but, I can't say this enough, it will SAVE YOU TIME and GET YOUR PROJECT OFF THE GROUND FA$TER!!

Feel free to send me a private message if you have more questions!

Originally Posted by Speedsta

@Milkanic What would you suggest to learn php to bridge the gap to learning python (ie from the book you recommend) and why do you recommend python?

I really think learning even to a basic level would help me move my project into, well actually existing as the fear of the unknown (advanced coding) is holding me back from doing anything. But I do understand your point of view Zendolphin!!

This is from the last chapter of Learn Python The Hard Way and I think it sums things up nicely

"

Which programming language you learn and use doesn't matter. Do

not

get sucked into the religion surrounding programming languages as that will only blind you to their true purpose of being your tool for doing interesting things.Programming as an intellectual activity is the only art form that allows you to create interactive art. You can create projects that other people can play with, and you can talk to them indirectly. No other art form is quite this interactive. Movies flow to the audience in one direction. Paintings do not move. Code goes both ways.Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but you could make about the same money and be happier running a fast food joint. You're much better off using code as your secret weapon in another profession.People who can code in the world of technology companies are a dime a dozen and get no respect. People who can code in biology, medicine, government, sociology, physics, history, and mathematics are respected and can do amazing things to advance those disciplines."

-Zed Shaw
Advice From An Old Programmer — Learn Python The Hard Way, 2nd Edition

This also a pretty good article on PHP vs. Python. I actually take back what I said before, I would skip PHP all together and go straight into Python and Django.

PHP is a bit like using a hammer when there is a nailgun available. Both work, but I'll take the nailgun.

Why PHP Is Fun and Easy But Python Is Marriage Material

@Tarheelfan2009

Originally Posted by Milkanic

This is from the last chapter of Learn Python The Hard Way and I think it sums things up nicely


This also a pretty good article on PHP vs. Python. I actually take back what I said before, I would skip PHP all together and go straight into Python and Django.

PHP is a bit like using a hammer when there is a nailgun available. Both work, but I'll take the nailgun.

Why PHP Is Fun and Easy But Python Is Marriage Material

I find it ironic that the site that the link points to is a .NET site! But the text above is a good example of the type of "religious arguments" that you'll be bombarded with (HINT: THEY DON'T GO AWAY NO MATTER WHAT LANGUAGE YOU CHOOSE)! If you want to learn python then, follow Milkanics advice and go straight into python. But like I said earlier it doesn't matter. And if you're looking for a web framework in PHP. You can try yii at Yii Framework: Best for Web 2.0 Development and symfony at symfony | Web PHP Framework these are good MVC frameworks that will automate a lot of things for you and you don't have to write any SQL for you databases. I've used yii but I'm switching to symfony....

Really talented teams, will program using the language that is appropriate for the project. There isn't a language that is appropriate for all tasks, which takes us back to the OP question, what if he chooses to learn the wrong language for the tasks he is trying to accomplish? It is far better to learn how to hire a programmer (which can apply to any language now or in the future), than it is to spend time learning to code.

Originally Posted by healthstatus

Really talented teams, will program using the language that is appropriate for the project. There isn't a language that is appropriate for all tasks, which takes us back to the OP question, what if he chooses to learn the wrong language for the tasks he is trying to accomplish? It is far better to learn how to hire a programmer (which can apply to any language now or in the future), than it is to spend time learning to code.

Good points.

Does anybody know if it would be possible for me to build the looks and layout of my site through a program like Wix and then hire a programmer to code or hack into my site to build the certain features I'm unable to design with Wix (For example- Facebook Connect, User Profiles, Data Collection, etc) . Wix is a WYSIWYG builder that I have created several Flash sites with, but now they offer an HTML5 builder so I was thinking that maybe they could hack into the code and throw the features into it after I have the basic framework built. I guess it would have to be some kind of 3rd party plugin that would track the data and user profile externally from Wix. This could not even be possible, just some thoughts I was wondering about?

Originally Posted by Tarheelfan2009

Does anybody know if it would be possible for me to build the looks and layout of my site through a program like Wix and then hire a programmer to code or hack into my site to build the certain features I'm unable to design with Wix

I'm not familiar with Wix, but a friend of mine tonight was creating her website with Dreamweaver. She basically created in that, and then the program turned everything into code while she was doing it. I was able to go into that code and manually edit that to do some other stuff. So if it is along the lines of that, then it looks like you would be able to do that. If anything, it would definitely help your programmers out when it comes to how your website should look and speed up the process (aka they won't have as many questions for you).

Originally Posted by Tarheelfan2009

Good points.

Does anybody know if it would be possible for me to build the looks and layout of my site through a program like Wix and then hire a programmer to code or hack into my site to build the certain features I'm unable to design with Wix (For example- Facebook Connect, User Profiles, Data Collection, etc) . Wix is a WYSIWYG builder that I have created several Flash sites with, but now they offer an HTML5 builder so I was thinking that maybe they could hack into the code and throw the features into it after I have the basic framework built. I guess it would have to be some kind of 3rd party plugin that would track the data and user profile externally from Wix. This could not even be possible, just some thoughts I was wondering about?

Why of course you can. As a matter of fact it's (generally) considered good design to have your "presentation" (user interface...layouts..etc) separate from your "implementation" (actual working code). There's no shame in using templates. But you'll have to work out with your programmer (or yourself...) what your site will look like or how to best make it fit into the template design!

P.S. - @healthstatus - Any of the major web languages will do fine for this project ( Python, PHP, C#, Ruby On Rails, Java)...in order to choose the wrong language he'd have to choose something like C++ or some lesser known language that lacks the support base! To engage in the language debate is a big time wasting activity that will only lead to procrastination...Any major web language will do...to ponder over it too much is no different thant having a Pepsi Vs. Coke or a Sprite vs. Sierra Mist argument....Pick one of the languages/platforms listed above and you'll be fine! Just choose the one that's easiest to you! Websites like Yahoo and Facebook use lots of PHP and websites like Youtube use loads of Python, 37 signals uses Ruby on Rails, Google uses lots of Java, Stackoverflow/Stackexchange use C#....ANY LANGUAGE WILLWORK. They all present special advantages and challenges...you can't escape that no matter what you choose! Don't be overly language "religious"...pick the one easiest for you to learn and go full speed ahead...time is of the essence!

[QUOTE=fastlaneCoder;203528
P.S. - @healthstatus - Any of the major web languages will do fine for this project ( Python, PHP, C#, Ruby On Rails, Java)...in order to choose the wrong language he'd have to choose something like C++ or some lesser known language that lacks the support base! [/QUOTE]

You are "probably" correct. But all we have is a vague overview of what the OP is thinking of doing, often in these situations it is the last detail that will steer you to one language or another, the casual, oh and I need to the output to be a powerpoint slideshow, or and it needs to create a pie chart that I can click on each slice, or my server is Sun box running an old version of Websphere. I have written in a lot of different languages for a loooong time. There is always a right language and several that will get the job done.

I am not arguing which language he should learn. My point this entire post is that you don't become fastlane learning to program, you become fastlane learning how to hire programmers. That skill will serve you a lifetime, learning to code will serve you 3-5 years with that language, then you have to learn another one. My first language was Fortran, not real useful at this point, second, COBOL, not a lot of web apps in COBOL, then 8bit assembly then GWBASIC, and so on and so on. All of you that know a language now, most likely in 5 years it will not do what you need it to do.

It will eat up a ton of your time trying to learn to code. I'm in a similar boat as you though. Good Luck!

Originally Posted by healthstatus

you don't become fastlane learning to program, you become fastlane learning how to hire programmers.

True with one caveat, you better additionally hire or have someone you trust who will QA the code if you yourself don't know much about coding.

Originally Posted by zendolphin

if your fundamental work style is contrary to coding. your never going to get far.

If you are repelled by looking, testing any code (Even if you hire coders, you'll still need to get dirty with code somewhat), I'd think about concentrating on niches other then software - there are plenty of those around where you can just slap some WP on and away you go, they of course have a much lower barrier to entry, but if you can stand out...

Here's something to consider if you're hiring.

Startups: I want to start a tech startup. No experience with coding, what are my options other than finding a technical co-founder? - Quora

The first reply is from Ian Crosby, Co-Founder at 10sheet, TechStars NYC 2012. He had no technical partner/background and he talks about the process of hiring a programmer.

Originally Posted by sam22

Here's something to consider if you're hiring.

Startups: I want to start a tech startup. No experience with coding, what are my options other than finding a technical co-founder? - Quora

He has it spot on, apart from having to know people at Google, etc.

The biggest gold of all (for someone new to the industry) on that page is further down:

If industry knowledge, marketing concepts, ..."contacts, network, etc is what's driving the business, pay someone to build it. If technology innovation, software, and technical problems are what's driving the business, find a technical co-founder."

AND

"Finding a co-founder is easier said than done. But it is always the best way to go about it. My suggestion is don't wait. Outsource it to one or few freelancers. The code would be of poor quality, if you don't get the right guys. But do it, anyway. Create a prototype. Get some traction! See if your idea is working. Meanwhile keep the search for co-founder(s) on. The more milestones you cross, the easier it would be to sell your idea to a prospective co-founder (and more stock you would have for yourself.)"

Another perspective:
http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/15/sto...al-co-founder/

And some of the comments there are even better...

Hello The-Truth,
Thank you so much for this advice. I've read this approach to learn programming a few times before and I always thought that I don't think it would be possible for me. With any task or endeavor, I have this problem to prepare as much as I can before doing it. Then I end up wasting time 'preparing/researching' or not doing it because things seem more daunting. But now I feel better about learning to code and program knowing that this approach can be successful!

Please help, I want to outsource my idea but I'm afraid the programmer would steal it.
Even if I get him to sign a Non-disclosure agreement, he can sign it and then he will quit the job and tell my idea to someone else.

what can be done to make sure my idea won't get hijacked?