Thread: How does this make sense?

Originally Posted by leono

Huh, I think you're misunderstanding what I tried (but obviously) failed to say. I'm saying we need to stop looking at China, and thinking, "OMG, they study for 10 hours a day?!! We NEED to do that tooo!!!!!!!!!!!" Seriously, "Johnny" can barely count correctly, and yet he's taking Calculus. My point was instead of putting "Johnny" in Calculus, let's acknowledge that "Johnny" can barely even do basic math, and work from there. I'd rather "Johnny" have a solid foundation in basic mathematics, than say, "Look we have this many kids taking Calculus."

Here's the problem with that. You can't force Johnny to do math he can't handle. What is the point? It's not my strong subject either. But we, just like every other country NEED people who CAN do it. Not EVERYONE needs to do it but you can't even fly a plane without knowing math, so if little Johnny has the desire to become a pilot he going to have to learn math. If he can't handle it, he will have to choose another career. You are correct though in stating he needs a basic foundation first. You can't do calculus if you can't add 2 + 2.

Originally Posted by hedgehog757

You can't force Johnny to do math he can't handle.

I've seen too many people fake their way through high school math to know that this isn't entirely true. I know alot of people who have memorized facts and equations to pass standardized tests, but don't actually understand the material or concepts.

Originally Posted by leono

Huh, I think you're misunderstanding what I tried (but obviously) failed to say. I'm saying we need to stop looking at China, and thinking, "OMG, they study for 10 hours a day?!! We NEED to do that tooo!!!!!!!!!!!" Seriously, "Johnny" can barely count correctly, and yet he's taking Calculus. My point was instead of putting "Johnny" in Calculus, let's acknowledge that "Johnny" can barely even do basic math, and work from there. I'd rather "Johnny" have a solid foundation in basic mathematics, than say, "Look we have this many kids taking Calculus."

I certainly agree with that but I thought the thread was about the president making it easier to get student loans and forgiving debt.

Originally Posted by leono

In defense of some kids, in particular those who are less fortuntate, AP classes may not actually be available in their schools. I know when I was in high school, we only had a handful of AP classes. However, by the time I left, they were adding many more, so who knows maybe I'm wrong about this.

But everything else you said is on point, and I couldn't agree more.

Good point thanks!

Originally Posted by Yussef

I certainly agree with that but I thought the thread was about the president making it easier to get student loans and forgiving debt.

It is. I just saw a side point that I wanted to expound upon!

Originally Posted by leono

I've seen too many people fake their way through high school math to know that this isn't entirely true. I know alot of people who have memorized facts and equations to pass standardized tests, but don't actually understand the material or concepts.

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I do agree with this.

And even with this what is the high school graduation rate? Something like only 70% or maybe lower?

I have to say I agree more with Yussef's point. Maybe we need a shake up.

Really do any of us remember or have used even 10% of what we were taught in high school? Speaking for myself I do not.

The VERY best class I had was typing because I learned to touch type and can use it on the internet. But did I REALLY need to read shakspear??? Or how to diagram a sentence or what year Napolean ah ah ah crap I don't even know what Napolean did lol


Do you guys think it would every be possible to treat high school more like college? More along the lines Ok Billy is 16, he and his parents agree it would be best for him to go to school for 6 hours a day and learn auto mechanics.

For my son I believe he would have LOVE it and be much further ahead now. When he cuts his hand he literally bleeds 10-W-30 motor oil lol

Or billy and his parents think he should specialize in music so he goes to school 3 hours a day for music and 3 hours something else.

read it somewhere - office work was created to keep the most of the population busy while the rest make things happen.

perhaps, the minds who created school system based it on the same idea? these kids have to do something, so why not make them learn history.

although, I have to admit I could spot the difference between people who had Higher Education and those who don't given the fact that the latter group haven't put any effort in self-development and read Shakespear on the own. Uni educated people are more interesting to talk to

"As a bit of background, the industrial titans of the 1890's began to think that not only could the production line be engineered, but people's lives could be engineered as well, in order to work like homogeneous robots with the machines. Rockefeller and Carnegie gave huge sums to prominent academics to see if this could be realized through the educational system. They found that to a considerable extent it could, and it is still being done today as evidenced in the Congressional Record during the Clinton administration. This is the story that John Gatto has to tell.-DB)"

"The secret of American schooling is that it doesn't teach the way children learn -- nor is it supposed to. Schools were conceived to serve the economy and the social order rather than kids and families -- that is why it is compulsory. As a consequence, the school can not help anybody grow up, because its prime directive is to retard maturity. It does that by teaching that everything is difficult, that other people run our lives, that our neighbors are untrustworthy even dangerous. School is the first impression children get of society. Because first impressions are often the decisive ones, school imprints kids with fear, suspicion of one another, and certain addictions for life. It ambushes natural intuition, faith, and love of adventure, wiping these out in favor of a gospel of rational procedure and rational management."

Originally Posted by PatrickP

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I do agree with this.

And even with this what is the high school graduation rate? Something like only 70% or maybe lower?

I have to say I agree more with Yussef's point. Maybe we need a shake up.

Really do any of us remember or have used even 10% of what we were taught in high school? Speaking for myself I do not.

The VERY best class I had was typing because I learned to touch type and can use it on the internet. But did I REALLY need to read shakspear??? Or how to diagram a sentence or what year Napolean ah ah ah crap I don't even know what Napolean did lol


Do you guys think it would every be possible to treat high school more like college? More along the lines Ok Billy is 16, he and his parents agree it would be best for him to go to school for 6 hours a day and learn auto mechanics.

For my son I believe he would have LOVE it and be much further ahead now. When he cuts his hand he literally bleeds 10-W-30 motor oil lol

Or billy and his parents think he should specialize in music so he goes to school 3 hours a day for music and 3 hours something else.

Patrick, great point!
I went to a high school where all they did was make you read and prepare for college. I can't type...at least not quickly but I can usually spell alright. But I had always wished there more hands on learning classes. I learn much better at hands on by actually DOING things than reading about them. My friends that went to other high schools had hands on experience from woodwork, to auto mechanics to photography.

Half of them are in business fr themselves now. My cousin can't spell a damn thing correctly but if you give him an advanced calculus formula he will give you the right answer. He can also build a house or fix a computer. He just has a very technical brain.

I also don't think people fake their way through math. I understood it when I was taught it, even if I needed a extra help. But to understand it again now, I would need to be retaught.

Originally Posted by Likwid24

"As a bit of background, the industrial titans of the 1890's began to think that not only could the production line be engineered, but people's lives could be engineered as well, in order to work like homogeneous robots with the machines. Rockefeller and Carnegie gave huge sums to prominent academics to see if this could be realized through the educational system. They found that to a considerable extent it could, and it is still being done today as evidenced in the Congressional Record during the Clinton administration. This is the story that John Gatto has to tell.-DB)"

"The secret of American schooling is that it doesn't teach the way children learn -- nor is it supposed to. Schools were conceived to serve the economy and the social order rather than kids and families -- that is why it is compulsory. As a consequence, the school can not help anybody grow up, because its prime directive is to retard maturity. It does that by teaching that everything is difficult, that other people run our lives, that our neighbors are untrustworthy even dangerous. School is the first impression children get of society. Because first impressions are often the decisive ones, school imprints kids with fear, suspicion of one another, and certain addictions for life. It ambushes natural intuition, faith, and love of adventure, wiping these out in favor of a gospel of rational procedure and rational management."

Very nicely articulated point. But....if this is true, what's the solution? I personally believe there are benefits to school and that's coming from someone that didn't care for school very much at all. Some of us learn that the mind by itself can be a tool used to solve problems. Some learn that the mind in combination with your hands can build or fix things, like Patrick's son. Some just learn the discipline of starting a task and finishing it and the gratification that comes from it.

The easier you make money to get the more expensive college will become. Thats why its so expensive right now because idiots think it is worth it to spend 100k on a major in basket weaving.

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Originally Posted by Yussef

Very nicely articulated point. But....if this is true, what's the solution? I personally believe there are benefits to school and that's coming from someone that didn't care for school very much at all. Some of us learn that the mind by itself can be a tool used to solve problems. Some learn that the mind in combination with your hands can build or fix things, like Patrick's son. Some just learn the discipline of starting a task and finishing it and the gratification that comes from it.

Very interesting. I hated school as kid. I did manage to graduate college with a bachelor's degree but I wish I had done more hands on learning in high school as I had no idea what to pursue when I got to college. Which I think is a lot of people's problem when they get that far.

With that thought in mind posted by Likwid...What does everyone think of Home Schooling compared to sending kids to school? Everyone needs to learn to read and write and do basic math skills in order to survive(for the most part).

And why isn't everyone who is protesting the 1% protesting their colleges and Universities instead for charging way too much money?

Originally Posted by hedgehog757

Very interesting. I hated school as kid. I did manage to graduate college with a bachelor's degree but I wish I had done more hands on learning in high school as I had no idea what to pursue when I got to college. Which I think is a lot of people's problem when they get that far.

With that thought in mind posted by Likwid...What does everyone think of Home Schooling compared to sending kids to school? Everyone needs to learn to read and write and do basic math skills in order to survive(for the most part).

And why isn't everyone who is protesting the 1% protesting their colleges and Universities instead for charging way too much money?

Man this is not a perfect system and I doubt it ever will be. But until we come up with a functional alternative this is what we have to work with. Whether your the 1% or the 99 we all benefit from a workforce that find a sense of purpose in what they do. If access to good affordable education becomes unreachable and certain fields of study become almost extinct because the debt to salary ratio is too great, we will be in big trouble. I personally want my daughter to have the best instructors available every time she walks into a classroom (that's what I pay for) and when I feel they are falling short my feelings are expressed to them. But I am lowering my standards as time progresses because the numbers of great teachers/professors are falling.

Originally Posted by hedgehog757

What does everyone think of Home Schooling compared to sending kids to school?

We home school and we wouldn't have it any other way.

Sue

Originally Posted by hedgehog757

What does everyone think of Home Schooling compared to sending kids to school?

If I have kids, they will most definitely be homeschooled with a major bent towards unschooling.

Originally Posted by leono

If I have kids, they will most definitely be homeschooled with a major bent towards unschooling.

I think I learned how to read from my parents. I learned more from them than I did in school even though they always wanted me to go to school and get a job. Which is what they did.

Home schooling seems like a great way to go and I didn't realize that home schooled kids do have play groups and things to learn social skills and interact with others. That is the one thing I would have worried about. until I asked people what they do with their home schooled kids.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Originally Posted by hedgehog757

Home schooling seems like a great way to go and I didn't realize that home schooled kids do have play groups and things to learn social skills and interact with others. That is the one thing I would have worried about. until I asked people what they do with their home schooled kids.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

One of the greatest advantages to homeschooling is how personalized the studying and education can be.

Also, the whole deal with "socialization" is really funny to me. People seem to forget there are quite a few kids who go through school who never really develop much or any social skills or how to interact with others. The shy, akward loner kid exists in just about every school, but nobody worries about how they're being "properly" socialized.

Originally Posted by leono

One of the greatest advantages to homeschooling is how personalized the studying and education can be.

Also, the whole deal with "socialization" is really funny to me. People seem to forget there are quite a few kids who go through school who never really develop much or any social skills or how to interact with others. The shy, akward loner kid exists in just about every school, but nobody worries about how they're being "properly" socialized.

I asked about it because that pretty much describes me. I was quiet and sort of a loner going through school.
I have a lot of friends but I was always quiet and laid back in social situations.
EVERYONE worries about it...especially when it is their kid. They just don't know what to do about it