Hi, i recently bought some Frank Kern stuff about copywriting. I intend to send out sales letters via direct mail in order to generate leads for my company/website.

Everyone knows Frank is one of the best in the industry...so it makes sense to model him right?

Well after reading through some examples i was so surprised at how bad they appeared to me.... obviously i am wrong because hes the best, they just look bad to me. They are very long and have things in them talking about how much his company grosses, his expenses, how much some other people he knows make..etc.


In the sales letter i am modeling, he is sending the mail out to marketers, also he stapled a dollar bill to the top of the letter which he says is to "get their attention"

Also it has this landing page it tells them to go to

http://onemanmillions.com/

pretty weak...

Now obviously this works and it is just difficult for me to believe.

I am going to do three things.

1) I am going to send 200 of his exact letters to marketers (make my own landing page, web name etc.) cost $50 bucks to make landing page like this and have it put on 3 different domains i own.

2) I am going to use the exact model and format except change the words on the sales letter to make it relevant to my company. Obviously i will not target marketers because it is not my target market. 200 letters will be sent here.

3) Finally i am going to create my own individual sales letter from scratch.

letter 1 will target marketers so i will purchase that list.

letters 2 and 3 will be targeted different people so i will buy a list of 400 total.


There are a few things that can happen here.

0 responses from all 600 letters, or 1 will beat them all out. It does bother me that i am using different lists for 1 of the 3 letters but i will buy from the same list provider, hopefully that will help slightly.


This is an example of getting out there and doing things instead of worrying about the product. The marketing comes before the product.

Also i will track the number of people who came to the website and maybe do not fill out the landing page. Ill let everyone know what happens.

Id like feedback from some people, this may be a bad idea or a good idea but for the low cost im willing to try it out.

Frank Kerns sales letter mentions it will cost $97 bucks. Do you think i should leave this out for all 3 letters or include it?

Also he says you must pay $97 upfront and then he will give you back $200 if you do not like it...
next, they will call you up and try to upsell you, if you say no, they easily give you the $200 back.
I did research and they actually do give you the $200 back if you do not want to go forward....

How, well they are upselling an 8k tutoring system so i guess as long as they are successful with closing about 1 in 70 it works. Very risky to me but i want to see my response rate. thanx

For Direct Mail I would also recommend (besides Frank Kern, which is v.good in it's own) to study these 3 guys: Gary Halbert, John Carlton and Dan Kennedy.

Frank Kern's copywriting style is basically a mash-up between these 3 copywriting "legends" if u want.

Also for a more...I don't know how to put this...detailed view/real-life numbers (I guess?) you can read Vincent Jame's 12 Month Millionaire...the guy that sold Vitamins and idk what pills trough Direct Mail...he goes into great detail about EVERYTHING he did, where he failed, how he made money, how many letters he sent etc...
Very very good book to read for anyone considering Direct Mail.

I am fascinated by this.

If you saw my other thread I am kind of going through the same battle. I personally just don't get sales letters. I have some immense focus but I don't have the time, nor the energy... nor the focus... to get through any long form sales letter. (Even Kern's that I actually WANT to read)

I am dying to know what kind of results you get.

I have done a lot of tests in my martial arts business and found what seems to work best (although I keep testing), but I am a little perplexed at the internet business world and how these sales letters work. I'm studying though!

Also for a more...I don't know how to put this...detailed view/real-life numbers (I guess?) you can read Vincent Jame's 12 Month Millionaire...the guy that sold Vitamins and idk what pills trough Direct Mail...he goes into great detail about EVERYTHING he did, where he failed, how he made money, how many letters he sent etc...
Very very good book to read for anyone considering Direct Mail.

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o man another one? i went from mental strength books to self growth books to business books to persuasion books to marketing books im so tired of reading but i cant resist close to free power (books).

Kung Fu Steve

I am fascinated by this.

If you saw my other thread I am kind of going through the same battle. I personally just don't get sales letters. I have some immense focus but I don't have the time, nor the energy... nor the focus... to get through any long form sales letter. (Even Kern's that I actually WANT to read)

I am dying to know what kind of results you get.

I have done a lot of tests in my martial arts business and found what seems to work best (although I keep testing), but I am a little perplexed at the internet business world and how these sales letters work. I'm studying though!​

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Kung fu steve i did see your thread i wrote a detailed comment but my browser got timed out and i just gave up on rewriting it. I could not refind it either for some reason.

Anyway look, at the end of the day its obviously working. I can not wait to see what happens either because i do not believe it would work on me but my opinion does not matter 600 other opinions matter right now.

If this does not work i will get a copywriter and try to get this to work. Also most people re-run the same letters to the same list 3 times but ill figure that out after the first time.


I have got the opening of the letters dialed in, i actually sent 25 sales envelopes/ letters to people i know without telling, then called them up, every single one opened the letter to find gotcha! inside. I just wanted a hands on response to what they were thinking when they saw it and as what they were expecting to see. So some testing there helped me get that right. I have found that a regular letter w/ printed script on the outside/also with some other tactics will not get them thrown away. I have done the full colored printed stuff, and it was a huge failure -1000 6x9 to get back like 4-5 responses, and i was offering a free upfront commission based no obligation service. I believe a personal looking letter is by far the best thing you can do.

I believe once i find i can get a big response rate, the next problem will be

Am i being deceptive?
Are these people closeable?

Right now i just want huge response rates, and from there i will tone it down a bit to get better quality of leads.

Dont forget about other peoples views. Frank Kern sent out a letter saying its $97 bucks and i will give you 200 back if you do not like it. He also said he is one of the best marketers in the world. Most people will trust that and that is the big reason for such a big response. I think everything before that is whatever is necessary to reinforce the fact that "$97 bucks and you will get $200 back"

I will not do this in my custom letter and nothing of price will be discussed. I will offer a free service (which i will honor) but you bet you a** im going to try to upsell. I think the upsell's are so great that i will be able to get away with not talking about price.

In your case everyone knows there are charges to you can not really go that route.
You can do the double money back thing for your company however, it may work well.

Lesson for all: Do not pay anyone and keep creating many different letters hand written/ and printed until you see them getting a response. Once this is done right.... its all about you closing the deal from there.

be careful, you don't want to overload yourself with info and then get mixed up in your decision making.

While I do think that what I recommended should help you with what you want to do, you may need to spread out the intake of information...maybe do some tests first like u say, see how it goes then read that book or another to find a way that maybe you can improve.

Information overload is a bitch...srsly.

I'm not really a kern fan at all...but his stuff really isn't for direct mail anyway that I'm aware of.

For that, look at someone like Dan Kennedy. You can get his book "The Ultimate Sales Letter" for like $10 as a start and I guarantee you it will probably be more beneficial than an expensive kern course. Also read the late Gary Halbert's stuff.

Direct mail is a damn art form, so I would recommend studying a master or hiring someone to do it.

Ok I'm going to send out those 3 letters and see what happens. Can anyone help with with how to hire a copywriter who would help me successfully get this thing going?


I'm pretty much over hiring on craigslist, what type of credentials should they have?
How do I know if they are b.s ing or not?
Also if they worked for coca cola it may not help considering I will have no brand recognition.

It probably is smarter to just not try to learn and hire someone but I will just test it once so I know what to expect. Again I'd appreciate some tips on hiring someone, how to structure the deal, and how much to pay them.. Thank you again everyone

It's good to know copywriting...knowing copy also helps you "manipulate" people face to face.

Kern actually did ALOT of direct mail and as far as I know still does...its just that he only sends to certain parts of his lists.

If you wanna hire a copywriter hire him by how many sales he made in an industry close to yours.

Let's say your selling a dog raising guide...you could hire somebody that wrote sales letters for cat products with the condition that those letters did v.good.

If you can't find one in an industry close to yours, just get one that can show you "Look here, these last 3 letters I wrote got 1 in x conv rate for a total of $$$".

I see way to many people hiring copywriters that sell themselves as "Amazing copywriter looking for projects...3 years experience, over 100 letters wrote"....that doesn't mean squat if those letters didn't convert.

Marian I couldn't agree with you more that is why I asked.

Should I have him/her create 3 different sales letters or just one?

I'm in a niche market, obviously I fall into a segment but I would rather take a good flexible copywriter than someone who has just perfected one sales letter for one company for 20 years?

What should I expect to pay for a job like this, it seems like it would take a day or 2 to implement, is $300 plus $3 every lead back fair? Copywriters here jump into the convo please.

When I say lead back I mean a form you can handwrite which I include with a prestamped letter and I also include a website with username/pw which is basically just a landing page I will try to get them to go to.

Never hired a copywriter before I'm sure they will all say they are good or lie, so its for sure going to be tough to know who is real deal or just looking to get work. I'm a copywriter, your a copywriter, we all can be, I'm just going to have to dig deep into their work past.

Also for a more...I don't know how to put this...detailed view/real-life numbers (I guess?) you can read Vincent Jame's 12 Month Millionaire.

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Marian i did not take your advice and wait...haha i got the book and im about 20 percent through... amazing.

I truly love direct response marketing and all of its studies behind it, real deal direct marketers can sell crap and make millions, so once you learn how and why and apply that to a real deal biz which provides value you can really go big. I appreciate the advice to read this, i need to stop reading and do more action but these books are so good!

yeah I agree...they just suck you in lol

That book was a big eye opener for me...up until that I only read "surface" stuff.

Hey...you did take action, you got the book didn't you?

yeah the power of books, there are people out there that will not read businesses books because they think its all a money making scam, i was one of them. I been through 10's of books and it really is unbelievable how much i have changed because of it. Once i found out other successful people have at one point red specific books i didnt care what anyone said i just did it. So if you are negative go read business books!

Be careful who you're learning from => » Frank Kern Underachieving

Frank Kern has never been successful except in the bizopp niche.

On his Mass Control sales letter, he falsified the amount of income because StomperNet, Annihilation Method, etc didn't make much money.

He is selling dreams to people who want to get rich. He is a swindler.

valuegiver said:

Be careful who you're learning from => » Frank Kern Underachieving

Frank Kern has never been successful except in the bizopp niche.

On his Mass Control sales letter, he falsified the amount of income because StomperNet, Annihilation Method, etc didn't make much money.

He is selling dreams to people who want to get rich. He is a swindler.

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This is not accurate at all sir. Please check your facts before you try to slander anyone's name.

Even after watching the video, you're still not convinced? He admitted that he is not making money before selling Instant Internet Empire. However, on the sales page of Instant Internet Empire, he wrote as if he made bazillion of cash. Where are your facts? I have presented mine.

Kung Fu Steve said:

This is not accurate at all sir. Please check your facts before you try to slander anyone's name.

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Well first off I would like to say it really irritates me when people try to drag down successful people. This is off topic for this thread so we can discuss it elsewhere after this but here's what is going on:

1. No one can dispute Tony Robbin's financial success. You also cannot dispute the millions of people that say what he has taught them has changed their life. You don't have to like the guy, you don't have to listen to him, but the guy is an extremely successful businessman whose goal is to help people. (I'm pretty biased here because I am getting into the same market)

I will go through this time line to the best of my ability. I have done business with his cousin Trey a bit and talked to him quite a bit. As far as Frank I have exchanged a few e-mails but I do not know him personally.

Frank Kern started out trying to sell pet containment systems (invisible dog fences) which was a business that failed miserably.

Then he moved on to trying to sell credit card machines door-to-door to businesses, which is another business that failed.

He moved into internet marketing after picking up a course for "making money online". In the recording he heard a guy doing a mail order ad for a 'teach your parrot to talk' book he had wrote. Kern took this and put it online.

The most this business ever made was $3,500 per month.

From there he did a few other niche products and then created Instant Internet Empires. The basis of the product was restructured public content. Books that were available for the taking. The problem ended up being (and again I don't know all the details here) but the course he was selling was teaching you to sell these books that he had. Which is all fine and dandy except for it was illegal for someone to re-sell what he had. FTC shut him down and sued him for a couple million.

He then rebuilt his income with a dog training course that he had created. Which is still online today. He claims it had been built into a million dollar business (but is no longer doing that well).

The next project was Underachiever's method with our buddy Ed Dale from the 30 day challenge. Basically the same kind of idea - learn to make money online.

And then a few more projects before he created Mass Control, which is an off-shoot of Product Launch Formula. All these guys became friends, they started to learn together and do their stuff together. Most of them live in La Jolla, California so they have a weekly mastermind group they call "the syndicate" Named after the Mass Control Syndicate product Frank made.

These guys had all worked together to make Stompernet do 18 million. The fact is that is gross sales for everything. He admits himself that he didn't get to keep 18 million. That is over a couple hundred affiliates. His take (because he was getting a larger commission for doing most of the launch) was something like 3 million. Still, not bad.

I don't know this guy personally, but I have made money with his stuff. Lots of money, especially recently. I attribute tripling my sales to what I've learned from him (which I will be giving a presentation on at B&P).

valuegiver, I like you, I appreciate your posts

That being said, there are two mindsets in this world: When we are all walking by the big mansion on the hill one type of person is going to say "I'm going to be that guy some day." The other says "I'm going to get that guy some day." My question is, which is more successful, and which would you rather be?

value.. i appreciate that. This is a big reason why i have multiple role models. I will listen to all of them, find out their FULL background history and how they made their success, how it applied to them, and then evaluate everything. Due diligence is key to anything in life.

With sales copy, if you are not a copywriter yourself... then you probably don't eat, breathe, sleep and live copywriting. However, even if not a die hard copywriter, you can at least get the basics of the sales letter rolling yourself.

Once you have a sales letter crafted, it's much cheaper to hire a professional direct response copywriter to re-write your copy than it is to get them to do it from scratch. Additionally, if you write your own copy (or hire a junior copywriter) you can test it and track it to get a control.

Then, when you do fork out the big bucks for a real pro, that pro needs to be able to beat your existing control. One thing to look for when hiring a copywriter is are they committed to the longevity of the project or are they just trying to earn a quick buck from you. This is important. Let me explain...

I've done thousands of direct mail projects and online salesletters. People used to pay me as much as 15k to write copy for them. It was always a "partnership" for the higher end clients. (I could tell who was higher end and experienced). With them, as a partnership type deal, I was there to tweak the copy and focus on increasing the conversions each time we mailed.

You see, nobody is a God at copywriting so much that they KNOW their copy will be a homerun out of the gate. Everything must be tested, tracked, tweaked and tweaked and tweaked some more until the thing converts like nuts.

For those deals, I'd get a cut/percentage or royalties on the life of the project. The marketer knows this is to his best interest because I have a vested interest in it's success. Plus, we both know it's not going to be a grand slam home run out of the gates.

So, when I hire copywriters now, that's what I'm looking for. I hire junior copywriters a lot too. There's a ton of people who are quite good, but just not known. They are always much cheaper.

Here's a few copywriting tips:

1. If you know your market well and ARE your market, then you have a great advantage over any copywriter, unless that copywriter knows that market well like you do. For example, if it's the karate niche and you live and breathe that market and know it well, then you know how the market tends to think. You know their pain, what problems they need solved, what they desire and are attracted to. But, most importantly, you can ask yourself --- "what would I buy?" or "what would make me subscribe" or call or whatever action you want them to take in your direct mail campaigns. So, ask yourself those types of questions and then write your copy towards answering those questions. Make sense?

2. A pattern interrupt. Your headline and sub-headline (introduction) to your copy is critical. It must disrupt their flow and get them to commit to reading your letter. It must interrupt their patterns. If they are used to opening their mail while standing over the wastebasket, you must "capture" thier attention. You can do that by being out of the ordinary, controversial, tap into their pain, etc.

3. Tempo. Your copy must read fast and be easy to read and flow fast. If when you proof read your copy, make sure and note the areas where you slow down reading... note areas of writing that's confusing or does not read fast. Your copy must read fast to where they cannot put it down.

4. I love Kern, but do not think he's the greatest copywriter myself. He's not bad, but he has the greatest converter going for him on his stuff and that's his "branding". People will buy because it's him. Same thing for Stompernet and the others... he taps into the main power... celebrity factors and credibility factors. The reason it stood out to you (how he was bragging and building himself up on the copy) is because you may not be used to that. In the IM market or "make money online from home" market, you have to establish credibility and one of the best ways to do that is through tooting your own horn. All in all, he's got a lot of the top ways to convert down like a star. Therefore, you must brand yourself to your market even at first impression. You'll need to toot, toot, toot your own horn too. If it's karate, you'll need to position yourself as a bad a$$... or something.

5. Benefits. Write down as many benefits as you can about your product. How exactly does it benefit customers and write down all the ways you can think of. Try to think of 20 different benefits... stretch your thinking and come up with whatever you can. In those benefits, you'll find what I call "the money phrase"

6. The money phrase. That's the main, killer, hook, angle, USP (unique selling proposition) is the money phrase. the money phrase can then be used as your main headline and it can/needs to be repeated throughout the copy (repetition). This money phrase can make your conversions sing! It can also make you rich in direct marketing. I bet when Dominoes Pizza came out with (30 min or it's free) they raked in millions and millions of dollars. MONEY PHRASE!

7. Opinions. Get people in your market to give you feedback on your copy. Get them to analyze it, read it and give you honest constructive criticism.

Good luck,

Eric Louviere

thank you Eric i definitely have my work cut out for me. Im going to go for two different looks and letters. I know one extremely important thing is making sure everything has one image.

Im going to attempt two of my own different looks. I am confident in getting everyone to open, but as you said i must continue to make them engage.

I have done a decent amount of marketing online to my target market and i learned something very important. When i made ads that were color and flashy it turned off the target market and i would get 0 responses.

So i changed my approach and it worked, it worked real well my leads were coming in crazy fast.

My best ads? black text ads

an example: not my industry

1) Connect with thousand of single mothers today for free! (flashy color ads with picture)

2) I'm a lonely divorced mother looking to meet men my age to build a Real long term relationship. ( huge response)

So it appears that was indirectly selling. How i can use this approach in direct mail i don't know, i cant pretend to be someone else i guess once i master that it will just be insane.

Maybe i could use testimonials like that and say

single mothers are looking to meet men such as yourself, please fill out your info on this card or go to (landing page) to fill out your info. We submit our men to single mothers at the end of the 31st so send in your inquiry by the 25th. There is about 65 single mothers in your area so we accept about 50 of our inquiries.


this is not my industry but its relevant and applies. So the approach would be

-use a testimonial or a few
-urgency submit by 25th
-scarcity only accepted 50 (so people feel this is exclusive and say "hey, im great i should be accepted, lets see if i get in....)
-get them to fill a lead back card or hit the landing page

To me more important than words of the copy is this type of thinking... the structure. I am going to try a few different approaches and see what works. As far as internet marketing goes that was what worked for me.

If you are going to be doing split testing, try performable.com they work really well and you can see which sales letters perform and which dont.