Thread: Education System FAIL!!!

Originally Posted by sswift

I can't post links (not enough speed yet) but I read an article the other day about the out-dated state of the american school system. In the article, it talked about how the American education system has not been drastically reformed since the industrial age, And how it still focus's on developing "conveyor-belt workers" or people that can be told to do a certain job, and do it well, over a period of long hours.

Everything from the structure of Homework, to the lesson plans that teachers are being told to follow, all focus on the same style of education that was taught in the 1900's and before! It's crazy! The education system train's you to become a sheep. not a Shepard.

Interesting topic, just wondering what your idea's and opinions are on this. Being a form with ton's of successful people, Im curious to see where you stand on the state of education system in america, or anywhere else for that matter. Did you do good in school? Did you feel it helped you get to where you are now? Do you have kids in school?

we need to be cautious here (I am really just talking to myself). This can easily escalate into a political discussion. with that said...

I would like to see the government completely step out of the education business. The average cost to keep a child in public school is about $9000/year. The average cost for private grade school in the US is just over $3000/year. (feel free to google these stats, I am too lazy to find them again). Of course we all contribute to this public tuition through our tax dollars whether we have kids or not for our entire lives. I would prefer to pay a much lower direct tuition for the years my kids are in school to a institution of my choice.

from an economic perspective, the presumption is that we wouldn't put our kids in school if we had to pay for it and allow our kids to grow up without any education, thereby destroying the social fabric of the nation. I personally think this is absurd as the human species has somehow managed to survive and thrive for thousands of years without the necessity of state provided education. but this is political propaganda to make us believe that we really need the government to educate us.

Again, IMO, I believe if the private sector took over education, we would see a much higher quality of education due to the efficiencies entrepreneurs always create. public officials aren't really concerned about creating efficiencies, but only concerned with spending their annual budgets to that they get them again next year. of course you can always send your kids to private school now, but you will only be paying double for your kids' tuition due to the direct tuition and your tax burden. this is a government influenced intervention that prevents the free market to operate properly.

in addition, the public schools could be auctioned off to local entrepreneurs and the kids could continue to go to the same schools. this would generate revenue from selling the real estate and ongoing property taxes as the private sector would now own the RE. this could be a huge boost in govt revenues and would be hugely benefiical to the public as long as the tax rate was reduced to take out the public school education from the budgets.

Originally Posted by LondonLife

Those of us who are succesful need the 'sheep'. The products of this educational system form 99% of the population and are our employees, our doctors, the people who serve us our coffee and keep our streets safe. They are honourable people, and without them we wouldn't be successful.

Then there is the few who see beyond this system and excel beyond what they have been taught and become the shepards regardless of the system of education in place.

If we were all shepards, it would be chaos.

I tend to disagree here. I believe the intelligence and productivity breed more intelligence and more productivity. human nature will always be present that makes some people more ambitious than others, and we will always have the sheep regardless of education. but maybe we will just have smarter sheep.

American public school teacher here(by choice). Generalizations are correct and incorrect. The public school system must be doing some things right, most of us can read and perform basic math. Most of us have some sense of reasoning and a sense of history.

I think one has to really be careful of listening to the populist, news message. Political sound bites come off great, the delivery usually stinks. Who among us is not for a better education system? Sounds good on the face, what does it look like in reality. Most of us would not want to pay the money it would take to individually educate each kid in his/her own way.

The education system was designed to provide for a basic, general education for all citizens. It has grown to include extra curricular activities, specialized needs education, gifted/ talented education, etc.

I contend that the education system is fine on the whole. There are things that need to be tweaked. I'm all for getting rid of standardized testing. I also contend that you can get out of the education system what you want to. I have never held a student back that wanted to learn more. How many have expressed an interest in learning more? Less than 1%.

Also, I have seen private, for profit schools that are prosperous and I have seen some that are major failures. Who suffers when the for profit schools fail? The kids.

IMHO, I don't think there is a one size fits all answer here.

funny, I just came across this video today. Three years old, but still relevant I believe.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw&NR=1]YouTube - Stupid in America[/ame]

We have discussed this same topic in the past as it is very important.

At least a couple of people have thought of creating a private school to offer a curriculum that fits our beliefs and be more independent from the other system.

Do a search for Education System and see what comes up...

examples:

http://www.thefastlanetomillions.com...l-systems.html
http://www.thefastlanetomillions.com...schooling.html
http://www.thefastlanetomillions.com...t-schools.html

Originally Posted by GlobalWealth

The average cost to keep a child in public school is about $9000/year. The average cost for private grade school in the US is just over $3000/year. (feel free to google these stats, I am too lazy to find them again).

I hope this is NOT the source of your information...
What Would A School Voucher Buy The Real Cost Of Private Schools
Cause it is from 1996 and I am willing to bet the numbers have changed. A lot.

In my area, even a decent kindergarten is around $1,000 a month, so that makes it $10K a year for tuition.

Edit:
Another study, same organization, from 2003
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3231

Agree with AndViv check your numbers! I assure you they are incorrect.

People always find something wrong in everything. Nothing is perfect. US schools may not be perfect, but they are decent. Think not? Why don't you go to school in another country and experience what it is like to have no clubs or have teachers go on strike for months straight.

Originally Posted by sswift

runum, very interesting POV.



My question is. How can we turn that 1% into 10%. And then into 50%?

You being apart of the system directly, is there a way to increase the amount of interest a child has in learning, not in any particular field, just in general.

I still dont know if the internet, or Google, has increased or decreased that number. I know I learn a lot more everyday by having google at my fingertip whenever my brain says "I wonder" but I also find myself being distracted much easier.

Like MJ would say ... I smell a biz-op somewhere around here!

That is the golden question. I wish I knew the answer. Let me share some of my challenges and it may shed some light on our dilemma.

In a typical day I see 70 kids at the school I am at now. 70% of them are on subsidized lunch programs. I get 90 minutes to motivate them to learn science. I pride myself on being edgy and goofy enough that my students bang my door down to get into my class. Now, add to that a certain percent have come to me that are present physically but not there mentally. Some have just had a major fight with mom or dad. Some have just seen mom and dad beat the crap out of each other. Most have not seen dad for an extended period of time. Some have just seen a relative or friend take drugs or drink alcohol to excess. Some have not eaten, even when free food is furnished. Some have just bought a new video game or cell phone and that is all they are thinking about. Some have had a fight with their best friend or their girlfriend/boyfriend dumped them. Some are so hung up on the latest thing that Mylie Cyrus did that they can't bring themselves to think of anything else. Some of the kids have physical, cognitive, emotional, or social challenges.

So while I am trying to present a challenging, engaging lesson to 70 kids, I am also constantly monitoring, adjusting, and managing all these other distractions.

If I could just have their brains engaged on what they need to be focused on, the whole minimum state required lessons would take far less time. Then we could go on, as a group to even higher level stuff. It would rock theirs and my world.

Overall the kids are conditioned, before public school, for immediate, material gratification. Most will not focus unless they can see what's in it for them, NOW.

I don't want it to sound like my experience has been all bad. I started 2 after school clubs this year. I have a chess club that was up to about 30 kids. It has settled at about 20 now. Most of these are guys that aren't well adjusted socially(nerds). They are so cool to talk to. I learn a lot from them and I work to teach them about winning and losing with grace. My latest club is a science club. There are 100 11 year olds signed up. Due to required tutoring there are about 50 that show up. I have another teacher that works with me. We are running this as a discovery/challenge club. It's awesome giving them a challenge and watching them work together to find solutions. Some of the kids have a real hard time adjusting to not having a set "right" answer. We are building toothpick bridges right now. They should be finished in a month, then we can stress test them.

As far as opportunity, jump on in, the water's fine. Learn what the requirements are and open your own private school . Maybe you will have the breakthrough success that we are all looking for. I have no problem learning from others.

Originally Posted by Runum

In a typical day I see 70 kids at the school I am at now. 70% of them are on subsidized lunch programs. I get 90 minutes to motivate them to learn science. I pride myself on being edgy and goofy enough that my students bang my door down to get into my class. Now, add to that a certain percent have come to me that are present physically but not there mentally. Some have just had a major fight with mom or dad. Some have just seen mom and dad beat the crap out of each other. Most have not seen dad for an extended period of time. Some have just seen a relative or friend take drugs or drink alcohol to excess. Some have not eaten, even when free food is furnished. Some have just bought a new video game or cell phone and that is all they are thinking about. Some have had a fight with their best friend or their girlfriend/boyfriend dumped them. Some are so hung up on the latest thing that Mylie Cyrus did that they can't bring themselves to think of anything else. Some of the kids have physical, cognitive, emotional, or social challenges......

Runum- I just wanted to say that you have my whole-hearted respect. I knew I liked ya from the start with your balanced and practical presentation on your take of the current financial state of this country at B&P!

It makes me smile to know that you're out there impacting kids in a positive way because you CARE. My hat is eternally off to you and to others like you who invest time, energy, money and heart into kids that need it the most, you have my unending respect.




Danielle



I just wanted to interject that in there...

Thanks Danielle and sswift. I have found that working with kids, especially underprivileged kids, is what makes me get up every morning with a smile on my face. There are tough days but the good days outnumber the bad.

I don't want to be a thread killer here. The question was asked about how to get the kids motivated. I think that may need to be explored more, perhaps on a personal level. How many of us, when we were kids, asked to go faster or learn more? i know I didn't. I learned the system and gave what was asked of me. My kid, who is number one in her class, does it. She learned, what are the minimum requirements I have to do to get the A that I want? I don't want to do anything extra, I don't want to learn anything extra.

How many of us did the same thing? As adults we do it in things that we are not interested in but we have to do. Examples: defensive driving, professional development, college courses. We all learn the minimum that we need to get by. However, the difference is we are adults now, we can make that choice and suffer the consequences of our lack of motivation. Kids, though, do not have the background to make that determination. Some call for kids to be the sole person to set their own learning pace. We all know that there are kids that will never learn anything productive if we leave it to them.

So, if Johnny graduates and can't read, who failed? I do know many of his teachers failed. However, they probably tried and Johnny wasn't the most agreeable student. The teachers surely had 60-100 other students to work with that cared enough to try. Did his parents fail? Sure, his dad left, his mom worked 2 jobs and was preoccupied with the soaps and cigs to care. Did Johnny fail himself? Sure, he failed himself in first grade when he didn't care enough to try. After that year it was all downhill as he grew bigger and more agressive. Who failed and who is responsible? Who is to blame?

These are all rhetorical questions because I really don't have the answers. I do know kids now that refuse to do the math work asked of them. Their parents apologize for their kids behavior and make all kinds of promises that they will do better. The new improved kids behavior lasts maybe one week and then we are back to the usual behavior. Then the parents get mad at us for not letting them know that their kid isn't doing their work. The parents can check their kids grades online but still don't.

I have had some heated discussions with educated parents. I fully believe that your kids education is your responsibilty. You are welcome to partner with me, as a teacher, to make that happen but I cannot MAKE your kid learn anything. I do not beleive it is my job to MAKE your kid behave or learn. I do what I can within my limits to make kids want to learn but I can't reach them all. It is a shame.

Anyone else have any answers? RCardin, where are you?