What do you guys think of Jordan Belfort?

[Ninjakid]

I'm sure just about everyone here has heard of The Wolf Of Wall Street. And if you haven't, please google it.

I just want to hear some opinions you guys have on him.

I've seen him in interviews and watched some of his videos. The guy is extremely charming and charismatic. He's one of those guys who you can't help but want to hear every word he says.

But given his past, many people are upset about the fact that he's further capitalizing on his experiences and history. I guess some people thought that going to prison, and having his entire operation shut-down would be the end of all his glory days, right?

WRONG!
He has written a book which has been turned into a hit hollywood blockbuster. He gives seminars, and even his created a course on his powerful sales technique. And while he has done many wrongs, he has apologized for it and always laments about it.

But even all though he lost everything he originally gained, he has still managed to rebuild is wealth, and is enjoying his millions today. Personally, I think that's the mark of a true entrepreneur.

What do you guys think?

 

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[MattCour]

Look up the term pump and dump and tell me if that's the mark of a true entrepreneur.... He's an excellent con man, what value has he created?

 

[ChasingPaper]

Look up the term pump and dump and tell me if that's the mark of a true entrepreneur.... He's an excellent con man, what value has he created?

What value has he created? He has created lots of value within and for society! He has created a fascinating book, which is very entertaining to read...then he gave rights for a movie to be made on his life. The movie was incredible in my opinion, and is one of my favorite movies to this day. Lot's of people forget that entertainment is a form of value as well! He also does lots of seminars and has helped several entrepreneurs become extremely successful in sales. He is a master at sales.

 

[MattCour]

Lol ok. If your parents were a client of his I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune. I'm just gonna leave this here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont. Enjoy

 

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[ChasingPaper]

Lol ok. If your parents were a client of his I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune. I'm just gonna leave this here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont. Enjoy

I knew this would come up, OP stated clearly he knows that Jordan Belfort did many things wrong, and I agree. His question is not based on morals, which is what your basing your answer off of. You can deny it as much as you want, but after his mistake, he did create value, and he is now a millionaire again because of that.

 

[codo3500]

The guy is an epic salesman. He used to lack ethics, and done a lot of damage, but now he's putting a bunch of well-trained ethical salespeople into the world - and I dare say he's more than making up for the damage he done. I genuinely believe he's remorseful, and I also genuinely believe he is the best salesman in the world.

 

[JustKris]

I'd classify him as a charismatic, entertaining, amoral scumbag who was really good at sales.

Though I always wonder with people like this---is it really hard to be a good salesman when you're lying? I used to work in ad sales (doing well, mind you) and there were always 2-3 guys who had GREAT numbers and then terrible renewals. They'd get somebody on the hook, promising them the world, and it would always fail to meet expectations. Why? Because the salesmen were talking out of their asses, knowing full well they wouldn't deliver on those promises.

Look, I liked the books and the movie (even though it was about 30 min too long). But to say he's more than made up for the damage he's done---about 100 million dollars worth---with some Australian sales seminars is disingenuous at best. And there are allegations he's hiding a lot of his seminar/movie money to avoid paying back the people he bilked.

That said, con artists are usually pretty interesting...from a distance.

 

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[codo3500]

Look, I liked the books and the movie (even though it was about 30 min too long). But to say he's more than made up for the damage he's done---about 100 million dollars worth---with some Australian sales seminars is disingenuous at best. And there are allegations he's hiding a lot of his seminar/movie money to avoid paying back the people he bilked.

I know exactly where you're coming from, as my business partner thought the exact same before seeing his material. But the guy preaches ethics more than any other sales coach I've seen. A typical salesperson will do millions in sales in their career - I know I've done tens of millions (I'm a Real Estate Agent) - so if you had 10 guys like me, who took the ethical route because that's what Jordan taught - I'd say he's cut even. He's trained thousands of people, so I dare say as a whole, he's done good things.

Does it mean he's not a scumbag? Hell no. Guy may be faking it all, and being a master salesman, he'd be good at fooling people. But that doesn't change the fact that his courses are taught in a way that heavily promotes ethics and providing value.

For the record - the old Jordan Belfort, the guy in the movie (which I believe is quite accurate), was one of the worst human beings imaginable.

 

[Ninjakid]

Look up the term pump and dump and tell me if that's the mark of a true entrepreneur.... He's an excellent con man, what value has he created?

Okay, let me clarify.

Keep in mind, he started businesses while he was a teenager. His first was successful and he paid for his university education that way.

Stratton Oakmont was a business that he created. An amoral business that probably ruined the lives of thousands. But a business nonetheless.

After he came was released from prison, he wrote a book that became a best seller. He's also created a course which he has sold.

When I said true entrepreneur, I was being empirical. There's nothing in the definition of entrepreneur that means you have to be a good person, or do ethical things.

Whether or not you agree with what he's did, the fact is, he has started many successful businesses from seemingly nothing.

 

[Ninjakid]

Actually @Chase Bristow basically summed up my reply

 

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[MattL]

What annoys me is how hollywood created this movie where he is (imo) this "glorified hero" that everyone is rooting for.

A lot of people my age seemed to really like the movie and his lifestyle in it, but failed to notice (or consciously ignored) how his way to riches was completely illegal.

 

[Villain]

He is the textbook example of a socially successful psychopath.

I am surprised he gets any praise around here...

 

[Solrac]

What annoys me is how hollywood created this movie where he is (imo) this "glorified hero" that everyone is rooting for.
A lot of people my age seemed to really like the movie and his lifestyle in it, but failed to notice (or consciously ignored) how his way to riches was completely illegal.

Yeah I've had a problem with this as well. I mean great entertainment, but Hollywood always manages to twist something in the end. What he did cost a lot of people a lot of money, but everyone just glorifies the lifestyle. The event, not the process

 

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[Joe Cassandra]

The guy's definitely a great businessmen and salesmen. He knew the art of the pitch. I'm sure like most Wall Street ppl, he got caught up in the lifestyle of it and tried to exploit a special niche he found. Yes, illegal and no it's not an excuse for him.

But the guy is definitely fastlane. Most people don't know, when he got kicked out of Stratton, he started a COMPLETELY LEGIT mortgage business and rose it up to millions of dollars by GOING DOOR TO DOOR. No, he wasn't too proud to do it but he could do it well. And he was happy to teach anyone else how to do it.

Is he capitalizing a bit on his crimes in the past, yes for sure. Does he have something to teach, Yes as well. Americans especially are fascinated with someone outside the norm, even if he is a criminal. Why do you think the shooters get more coverage than the victims in school shootings? So he's capitalizing on that.

Here's a video of him talking about the mortgage business

I think he's making up for what he did fine as he's paying back the money. He didn't kill anyone so if he gives you back the money, I think an Eye for an Eye is fine.

 

[Veloce Grey]

Personally I can't stand the sight of him. It's like someone put a jackel in a suit.

It's true you can probably learn much from his career if you want to expend the time on him, but you could say that about most leaders in any field throughout history. Genghis Khan did some things very well too.

Surely with the availability of information these days you can find much better role models to follow? One of the benefits of living when we do is the variety of options you have for learning. 500 years ago if the only business success in your local area was like Belfort then maybe that was your best option to study from. But now there's an overflow of info and you can pick from so many different people, with the limiting factor being the time you have.

Out of all your possible options is that guy really the best? If so just cherry pick the useful parts and make sure to wash off the slime attached.

 

[Maxjohan]

Okay, let me clarify.

Keep in mind, he started businesses while he was a teenager. His first was successful and he paid for his university education that way.

Stratton Oakmont was a business that he created. An amoral business that probably ruined the lives of thousands. But a business nonetheless.

After he came was released from prison, he wrote a book that became a best seller. He's also created a course which he has sold.

When I said true entrepreneur, I was being empirical. There's nothing in the definition of entrepreneur that means you have to be a good person, or do ethical things.

Whether or not you agree with what he's did, the fact is, he has started many successful businesses from seemingly nothing.

With all you and me and everyone knows about this guy. Why would he be the one to idolize and look up to? I don't think he has that an impressive list.

You could proabably say, that he is an action taker.

But just because you sold a bunch of stuff doesn't mean that you are creating value. Everything sells with good marketing. Okay, almost everything.

Just because he has started a few businesses doesn't mean that he is a true "entreprenuer".

 

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[DaRK9]

http://www.pumpsanddumps.com/
http://pennystockipedia.com/pump-and-dump-watch-list/


He was not the first and won't be the last. He was already rich legit before the pump and dumps.

Anyways, who cares? I've sold more websites and appliances using his methods than any other system. People assume that because of his past the sales portion is slimy, but the first thing to figure out is if they actually need it and have the money.

Everything sells with good marketing. Okay, almost everything.

Do you think marketing is not for sales? Or just a fun business word to use.

 

[Maxjohan]

Do you think marketing is not for sales? Or just a fun business word to use.

What do you mean? My main point is still that just because you sell stuff, doesn't mean that you create value.

 

[Kyle Tully]

I think he's making up for what he did fine as he's paying back the money. He didn't kill anyone so if he gives you back the money, I think an Eye for an Eye is fine.

From what I've read he has made millions and barely paid anything back.

 

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[Joe Cassandra]

From what I've read he has made millions and barely paid anything back.

Whoops, jumped the gun
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...lfort-sees-pay-top-100-million-this-year.html

We'll see if he keeps his word by y/e.

 

[jazb]

You can learn a lot from criminals....especially the business ones

 

[decaobr]

A sociopath who is a good saler.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

Had he stolen a significant portion of my assets, I'm pretty sure I'd want him dead.

Other than that, the movie is entertainment (nothing more) and he is a persuasive salesman.

A good person? Not at all. If he pays everyone back in full, then he gets a second chance. If he doesn't, then he's basically just scum.

 

[Yankee427]

This is probably how most of the world outside of the few of us here who see the world differently than the other 95% of the population see people who are rich.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/opinion/sunday/fables-of-wealth.html?_r=0

Rich people (entrepreneurs, CEO's, executives) in this article it says that they are 4 times more likely to be psychopaths anyways.

I read both of Jordan Belfort's books and saw the movie and then did more research on the guy. What he did was definitely not correct, but if he can lose everything and come back and make another $100 million after jail, he's doing a pretty good job. You can't blame him for people loving a villain like this story and him taking advantage of that fact.

 

[Yankee427]

Had he stolen a significant portion of my assets, I'm pretty sure I'd want him dead.

Other than that, the movie is entertainment (nothing more) and he is a persuasive salesman.

A good person? Not at all. If he pays everyone back in full, then he gets a second chance. If he doesn't, then he's basically just scum.

He says according to one of the articles in this post, that he made $100 million in speaking profit this year. $50 million which is what he owes will be put into an escrow account to pay back the investors at the end of this year.

 

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[Ninjakid]

@Maxjohan I definitely think it's despicable what he did with his pump and dump schemes, and if he was the same kind of guy today, I would probably be calling him absolute scum.

That said, if the guy was only successful because he was a scam artist, the fall of stratton oakmont would have been the end of him. But he's managed to bounce back and rebuild his wealth on a new plane.

His gift is clearly his ability to sell. I've watched his videos, and I can honestly say I've taken a lot of value from his talks. There's this one where he talks about using his straight line persuasion method to an audience of interent entrepreneurs, and I think most people on this forum if they put his past aside would be thinking "yes, I totally agree with that." Even when I read his book, he's not preaching garbage, so I do believe he's creating value.

As for him being a "true entrepreneur," if starting out poor and creating multiple business ventures even after you've lost the wealth you've gained isn't being an entrepreneur, then what is?

 

[Ninjakid]

A lot of people my age seemed to really like the movie and his lifestyle in it, but failed to notice (or consciously ignored) how his way to riches was completely illegal.

I found the movie to be quite entertaining, but would never condone or want to take part in that type of lifestyle (the money part is fine with me, but the drugs and 5 coked-out hookers a night type shit I have no interest in).

Sadly, I've noticed a lot of people watch this movie and think "this is how rich people live, this is what it takes to be rich, and anyone who wants to be rich must want this type of lifestyle." From reading the posts on this thread, I can see that most people on this forum are respectable and moral people; which makes me really glad and boosts my faith in humanity.

 

[Maxjohan]

Even when I read his book, he's not preaching garbage, so I do believe he's creating value.

He is entertaining you. That's all. I don't see that as value. I see it as entertainment. So is the movie.

I just did a search a couple hours ago about "price for Jordan Belfort seminars". I wasn't sure I was going to post this but I will:

Reportedly, he pulls in 30 grand per seminar, but controversy has followed him around the world. Prosecutors in New York have complained that he has not, as directed by the court, handed over half of his earnings to recompense those he swindled. He says he’s moving in that direction, and that the profits from a 45 date tour of the USA this year will all go towards his victims.

Still, his sums are a bit dodgy. He claims that he will earn $100m this year. That would be about 3,300 seminars, or ten a day. Even allowing for private coaching, for which he says he charges $1m a year, it’s hard to see how he can make that wodge. Still, as he says himself, believe and it will surely happen.

At the RDS he keeps everybody on their toes by getting them to engage. Every so often, he instructs the audience to stand up and say something, as if he’s a priest addressing a congregation.

“Say ‘I am committed to getting rich’.” They pledge their commitment. “Put your hand on your heart and say, ‘I must use a system. I am an asset’.” The hall obliges.

When you’ve shelled out up to one 120 lids you’re willing to stand on your head if that’s he says is required to get rich.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifest...elfort-fails-to-impress-in-dublin-270485.html

Sorry. For the bolded part. But I thought it was funny. Not bashing Jordan Belfort or anything. This was just an article I found.

 

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[DeletedUser394]

He says according to one of the articles in this post, that he made $100 million in speaking profit this year. $50 million which is what he owes will be put into an escrow account to pay back the investors at the end of this year.

Not likely. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01...h-prosecutors-say/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

He makes $30,000 per speech. On a 45 city tour that's 1.35 million.

He only made about $1.3 million from the movie, of which only a tiny fraction ($21,000?) was given back and which the government is in the process of suing him for.

Saying 'I'm going to make $100 million dollars this year, is asinine.' and the only purpose is to try and drum up more interest in himself.

Top grossing speakers like Al Gore don't pull anything close to that..

 

[Ninjakid]

He is entertaining you. That's all. I don't see that as value. I see it as entertainment. So is the movie.

I just did a search a couple hours ago about "price for Jordan Belfort seminars". I wasn't sure I was going to post this but I will:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifest...elfort-fails-to-impress-in-dublin-270485.html

Sorry. For the bolded part. But I thought it was funny. Not bashing Jordan Belfort or anything. This was just an article I found.

I was expecting to see an article saying he charges like $5000 and your first-born child for a seminar (by the way, Robert Kiyosaki charges $12,000 to $45,000) but 50 to 120 euros isn't too bad. Doesn't mean I will be going anytime soon, when I could probably just find it on YouTube

And by value I meant learning how to promote your business. I think for some they can get value by learning not to do what he did, but seem people seem more attracted to that lifestyle.