The Education Monopoly... W.T.F?!!

[Samson II]

From day 1, we are told that the only place we can learn is in a school. Maybe not in so many words, but, think back... to the first time you ever started doing bad in school. Your parents probably told you that you were supposed to be learning in school, and asked you what you were doing. This IMPLIES that if you are getting bad grades, you are not learning... but more than that, it implies that SCHOOL is the only place you can learn.

How screwed up is that?

I have learned so much outside of school... only lately did I realize it. Hell, I've learned that some of the things I've learned in school aren't even true! Yet, it seems like everyone I talk to is borderline-OBSESSED with college/uni. Why? People have literally told me it is the ONLY way to succeed in the world, yet all I've seen coming out of higher education is mediocrity, and sometimes outright failure. Was that loan really worth it...?

It makes me wonder if the college system has made a concentrated effort to make college seem like the only option...if they did, it sure did work. The masses walk blindly to universities, thinking a masters or doctorate or Phd is somehow going to be their ticket to paradise... where is the rational thought? It horrifies me.

/endrant

 

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[Delmania]

The answer

It makes me wonder if the college system has made a concentrated effort to make college seem like the only option...if they did, it sure did work.

A little of this, more that our society is still using decisions made in the Industrial Revolution and the post-WWII era. A more accurate answer is alot more detailed than that.

 

[Mattie]

Hmm...I have to agree with you. When I was taking my History WWII class, I had an African Professor. I asked him how he got to America. What he could teach me about success? He told me he was a goat herder in the hills. They had limited books and what ever books were donated by people. He taught himself to read and read any book that came to their village. He told me do the same. Wisest words I ever heard and he didn't say go to College.

 

[Lex DeVille]

Wisest words I ever heard and he didn't say go to College.

That's cause you didn't ask him how he got his job.

Seems he's teaching more than one lesson.

 

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[Bouncing Soul]

From day 1, we are told that the only place we can learn is in a school. Maybe not in so many words, but, think back... to the first time you ever started doing bad in school. Your parents probably told you that you were supposed to be learning in school, and asked you what you were doing. This IMPLIES that if you are getting bad grades, you are not learning... but more than that, it implies that SCHOOL is the only place you can learn.

How screwed up is that?

I have learned so much outside of school... only lately did I realize it. Hell, I've learned that some of the things I've learned in school aren't even true! Yet, it seems like everyone I talk to is borderline-OBSESSED with college/uni. Why? People have literally told me it is the ONLY way to succeed in the world, yet all I've seen coming out of higher education is mediocrity, and sometimes outright failure. Was that loan really worth it...?

It makes me wonder if the college system has made a concentrated effort to make college seem like the only option...if they did, it sure did work. The masses walk blindly to universities, thinking a masters or doctorate or Phd is somehow going to be their ticket to paradise... where is the rational thought? It horrifies me.

/endrant

There is a monopoly and it's horrible. For me the worst is the textbook companies.

I think a significant part of the obsession is related to the fact it's getting increasingly competitive to get a corporate job, many people's version of success for their kids. There are more workers and less slots every year. So it's an educational "arms race".

If all you're seeing come out of university is mediocrity, then you're not hanging out on the right side of campus though.

 

[jon.a]

From day 1, we are told that the only place we can learn is in a school. Maybe not in so many words, but, think back... to the first time you ever started doing bad in school. Your parents probably told you that you were supposed to be learning in school, and asked you what you were doing. This IMPLIES that if you are getting bad grades, you are not learning... but more than that, it implies that SCHOOL is the only place you can learn.

How screwed up is that?

I have learned so much outside of school... only lately did I realize it. Hell, I've learned that some of the things I've learned in school aren't even true! Yet, it seems like everyone I talk to is borderline-OBSESSED with college/uni. Why? People have literally told me it is the ONLY way to succeed in the world, yet all I've seen coming out of higher education is mediocrity, and sometimes outright failure. Was that loan really worth it...?

It makes me wonder if the college system has made a concentrated effort to make college seem like the only option...if they did, it sure did work. The masses walk blindly to universities, thinking a masters or doctorate or Phd is somehow going to be their ticket to paradise... where is the rational thought? It horrifies me.

/endrant

My story of learning out side of school...
I "earned" a Bachelors in Business from https://www.chaminade.edu/ in 18 months. How I did it was CLEP testing and military experience credits. Plus, overloading. The testing an experience credits got me nearly half way there.

Dropping put of High School then GED testing was another example.

Of course you can learn outside of school. If you know how, you can get the ticket too. If it's worth anything, well that's a different story.

 

[Mattie]

That's cause you didn't ask him how he got his job.

I think he was hinting at I was something more than his average student. I had done a project and presentation on Darfur Africa, and the class applauded and lit their lighters in the classroom afterward. And of course I knew it would hit a spot with my professor when I did it. I think for him being a professor was enough, but he knew I might take it a little bit farther than just getting a few degrees. He knew I was an advocate, and for an advocate you break the rules in Africa. You don't go along with society or what they say is the norm.

 

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[The-J]

People have literally told me it is the ONLY way to succeed in the world, yet all I've seen coming out of higher education is mediocrity, and sometimes outright failure. Was that loan really worth it...?

There's a couple things in that.

To them, mediocrity IS success. Everyone wants either a sit-down job, a prestigious job (doctor, lawyer, engineer), or both.

Contrary to what a lot of us believe, most people aren't motivated by making money. They're motivated by comfort. If they can go to a job that they won't lose and then go home to their regular house that they won't lose, eat food that they won't lose, and sleep in a bed that they won't lose... that's what they will aim for.

There are 'job' paths that are for people who are motivated by money though: namely sales (incl. affiliate marketing and copywriting in this), investment banking or other Wall Street functions, or working in a tech startup with hefty stock options. But those jobs aren't really prestigious: people hate salesmen, investment bankers, and guys who make millions on stock options. If people were motivated by money, you'd see a lot more of these workers in the world. But you don't.

So why can universities get away with charging $20k+ a year for tuition? Because people really want to work in an office where they can sit down all day. Others want to chase their dreams of marine biology and vocal performance, and they think college will help get them there. Combine with the government being willing to back a college education initiative to look good on world rankings, and BAM you've got yourself the current situation.

 

[Samson II]

There is a monopoly and it's horrible. For me the worst is the textbook companies.

I think a significant part of the obsession is related to the fact it's getting increasingly competitive to get a corporate job, many people's version of success for their kids. There are more workers and less slots every year. So it's an educational "arms race".

If all you're seeing come out of university is mediocrity, then you're not hanging out on the right side of campus though.

well i don't come from the best state, education-wise... that might be why i see so much mediocrity. ironically, non-college educated people seem to make more money down here

 

[jon.a]

well i don't come from the best state, education-wise... that might be why i see so much mediocrity. ironically, non-college educated people seem to make more money down here

Bingo!
For many slowlaners, learning a "trade" would be a far better option. But, like @The-J pointed out, most trades don't come with chairs.

 

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[Bouncing Soul]

I don't think it has to do with state as much as major.

 

[sija1]

From day 1, we are told that the only place we can learn is in a school. Maybe not in so many words, but, think back... to the first time you ever started doing bad in school. Your parents probably told you that you were supposed to be learning in school, and asked you what you were doing. This IMPLIES that if you are getting bad grades, you are not learning... but more than that, it implies that SCHOOL is the only place you can learn.

How screwed up is that?

I have learned so much outside of school... only lately did I realize it. Hell, I've learned that some of the things I've learned in school aren't even true! Yet, it seems like everyone I talk to is borderline-OBSESSED with college/uni. Why? People have literally told me it is the ONLY way to succeed in the world, yet all I've seen coming out of higher education is mediocrity, and sometimes outright failure. Was that loan really worth it...?

It makes me wonder if the college system has made a concentrated effort to make college seem like the only option...if they did, it sure did work. The masses walk blindly to universities, thinking a masters or doctorate or Phd is somehow going to be their ticket to paradise... where is the rational thought? It horrifies me.

/endrant

I agree with what others said about the comfort. And would like to add that the other reason could be that people lack discipline. I know a lot who want to learn on their own, but end up getting drunk every night. They don't have a plan, don't know where to start and don't even bother with overcoming these obstacle because they lack discipline. School gives you a precise plan - for X amount of money, you will have X hours of classes for a total of X years and you will get X degree if you pass everything.

 

[luniac]

From day 1, we are told that the only place we can learn is in a school. Maybe not in so many words, but, think back... to the first time you ever started doing bad in school. Your parents probably told you that you were supposed to be learning in school, and asked you what you were doing. This IMPLIES that if you are getting bad grades, you are not learning... but more than that, it implies that SCHOOL is the only place you can learn.

How screwed up is that?

I have learned so much outside of school... only lately did I realize it. Hell, I've learned that some of the things I've learned in school aren't even true! Yet, it seems like everyone I talk to is borderline-OBSESSED with college/uni. Why? People have literally told me it is the ONLY way to succeed in the world, yet all I've seen coming out of higher education is mediocrity, and sometimes outright failure. Was that loan really worth it...?

It makes me wonder if the college system has made a concentrated effort to make college seem like the only option...if they did, it sure did work. The masses walk blindly to universities, thinking a masters or doctorate or Phd is somehow going to be their ticket to paradise... where is the rational thought? It horrifies me.

/endrant

Wasted 5 years of my life in college :sour:
Puts me into a murderous rage...

 

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[jon.a]

Wasted 5 years of my life in college :sour:
Puts me into a murderous rage...

Did you get a Masters?

 

[luniac]

Did you get a Masters?

no just a B.E. in computer engineering.

 

[jon.a]

no just a B.E. in computer engineering.

Ah okay, engineering is probably harder than business.

 

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[obrian]

the education monopoly is so frickin real, but thankful for the internet more and more persons are waking up to this reality but it's going to a be a long process you can learn almost anything you want online. there is this stereotype that you of to go to school to achieve success but it all boils down to what you want to do honestly, for me i believe that doctors and lawyers need to go to school to learn their skill because i personally wouldn't want a doctor to work on me who said he/she was self taught and never went to college.but at the end of the day for me nothing can beat self education when you invest in your self day by day instead of using your head as this storage facility for all these non sense stuff which has nothing to do with your career or the path you choose to go in life.

 

[luniac]

Ah okay, engineering is probably harder than business.

Maybe the hard science electrical engineering and theoretical stuff like the electromagnetics and electronics classes. You really need to understand the concepts to pass the tests, cheating won't really work.

Professor quality makes all the difference though, a great professor makes the course material more interesting to learn and actually makes you want to impress the professor with your subject knowledge.

A horrible professor can sour you on the whole thing and cause you to drop the major, which actually happened to a ton of poor saps with one particular professor... thankfully i successfully avoided him

(i should get into the inventor fastlane lol...)

 

[jon.a]

Maybe the hard science electrical engineering and theoretical stuff like the electromagnetics and electronics classes. You really need to understand the concepts to pass the tests, cheating won't really work.

Professor quality makes all the difference though, a great professor makes the course material more interesting to learn and actually makes you want to impress the professor with your subject knowledge.

A horrible professor can sour you on the whole thing and cause you to drop the major, which actually happened to a ton of poor saps with one particular professor... thankfully i successfully avoided him

(i should get into the inventor fastlane lol...)

How did cheating come up?

 

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[Delmania]

Ah okay, engineering is probably harder than business.

This honestly was my experience with college. I have a master's in computer science. Despite the general sentiment against formal education that is present in almost every entrepreneur community, I would get it again in a heartbeat.

 

[jon.a]

This honestly was my experience with college. I have a master's in computer science. Despite the general sentiment against formal education that is present in almost every entrepreneur community, I would get it again in a heartbeat.

I only did it because I had to in order to advance and the Navy "gave me" 2 years of school duty.

 

[Erin]

I see good and bad both. In the end it's like almost everything in life , you get out of it what you put in it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

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[Bouncing Soul]

This honestly was my experience with college. I have a master's in computer science. Despite the general sentiment against formal education that is present in almost every entrepreneur community, I would get it again in a heartbeat.

I really think engineering is an outlier here. I realize we have an engineer in the thread that thinks he wasted his time in school, but I've met very few, including many very rich, engineers who would agree. (unlike attorneys or doctors)

Peter Thiel has been taking heat for his scholarship kids failures in business. Example- http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/11/peter-thiel-promised-flying-cars-instead-we-got-caffeine-spray/

I heard him recently make the argument that engineering isn't "education" in a podcast, perhaps in part because of things touched on in the above article.

Kids choose their majors for all sorts of reasons. My experience with engineers who chose to be engineers on their own, did so not because they were looking for comfort, but because they were looking for hard and interesting problems to work on and solve. If we use Steve Wozniak as an example of the proto-engineer, he was after neither money or comfort. He was after interesting challenges that had nothing to do with sales or operations. I know plenty of engineers that don't need to work but continue with "slowlane" jobs just for that reason.

This all said, I do agree with the premise of OP, we are in a crazy education bubble.

 

[luniac]

How did cheating come up?

Almost everybody tried to cheat in some way, including me.
In my opinion, that's because of the horrible grading policy which almost universally across all classes with few fluctuations went like this:
MIDTERM 1: 20% of course grade
MIDTERM 2: 20% of course grade
FINAL: 60% of course grade
sometimes homework was 5%, and sometimes class projects combined to 15%.

Now 70% is the D/C- barrier, 80 is C+/B- barrier, 90 is B+/A- barrier.
Considering it was generally considered that a degree below a 3.0 GPA(B) is equivalent to toiler paper, you had to at least shoot for 80 or higher for the class.

With that grading system if you F*ck up just ONE midterm you already go down to the C+/B- barrier...
And forget about that final... it's a heart attack waiting to happen because even if you did ok during the whole course, a few stupid mistakes on the final with a finger slip on the calculator combined with an a**hole professor who only grades based on the answer and not the shown work will mean you FAIL.

I think this is wrong, it forces students to focus on passing tests one way or another, "test passing" is the major skill cultivated in college...
I think a game changing improvement would be to make class projects account for at least 30% of the grade, homework for around ~10%, and all tests combined for no more than 60% percent. This way tests are still important for getting a good grade, but the projects and homework really help out your grade, and in fact will make you more prepared for the tests since you're more motivated to do well on homework and projects.

One guy had a PANIC ATTACK during electromagnetics test, a medical professional came into the class LOL!!! that shit distracted all of us during the test MAN!!!

I happened to be exceptionally skilled at keeping calm during a test and doing my absolute best with the knowledge i had.
I also had an awesome cheating strategy to help. I'd type formulas and examples in tiny font and print it out, cut the pieces out of the page and hide them in the palm of my hand on the test. Of course if i didn't understand at all how the formulas worked then the cheats wouldn't help anyway... professors often changed up the examples enough so you can't just use the same stuff from previous semesters verbatim.

I got a lot of crazy close calls in college, REALLY close calls where my GPA almost got destroyed one semester and I only made it through with some flesh wounds using sheer force of will, focus, and strategic brilliance.
I think it was during my second semester in my sophomore year and i took 6 courses, 18 credits worth, i think 4 of them were major complicated classes. For some weird reason i was EXTREMELY lazy that semester, i often skipped class(huge no no in college with 1.5 hour classes) and i had a really bad stroke of luck of some tests and was basically destined to fail like 3 of the courses and get bad grades in the other 3. This would have literally been a waste of a semester. One of my professors even recommended that i drop the course because even if i aced the 60% final i would still get a D, and in another class i would have flat out failed unless i aced the final as well which would get me a C. In a third class i was going down the same road with a failed midterm. and in a fourth class and fifth classes i barely even showed up...

So i strategically dropped the class where i failed the midterm.
For the 2 classes where i had to ace the final i went into absolute AUTISTIC GENIUS PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY MODE and spent hours and hours in the school library preparing for the finals. I ended up getting that D and C for acing the finals, i didn't care because i didn't have to retake those 2 courses so i was making progress towards graduating...

One of the classes i barely showed up to had a rare grading system where its 50% one project and 50% second project. I literally missed the day the professor assigned the first project, and i came to class on the day it was due!!!!!
I went into full panic mode, thinking quickly i ran downstairs into the library, messaged a friend who took the course before, got his project, made some modifications to it barely understanding what i was doing and submitted it via email to the professor... got an A on the project... did the same thing exact thing for the second project and got a B- for the class... i literally WINGED the whole class... thankfully it was an assembly programming course which I didn't need whatsoever in any other course.

the last class had such an easy teacher everyone got an A except for me with a B-... waste of easy GPA boost... speaking of GPA mines got tattered into a 2.7 that semester... it took the next 3 years of college to bring it back up to a 3.0 which i thankfully graduated with, so no toiler paper... or kindling...

I had other close calls but this was my make it or break it point in my life at the time... absolutely insane semester, i still can't believe i pulled it off without failing anything...


The "career center" was less than helpful.... the college already got their money for me... so yea...

The best thing college taught me is DISCIPLINE and the belief that i can really accomplish anything i put my mind to, it just takes time and continuous effort, and sometimes intense effort.

 

[luniac]

I really think engineering is an outlier here. I realize we have an engineer in the thread that thinks he wasted his time in school, but I've met very few, including many very rich, engineers who would agree. (unlike attorneys or doctors)

Peter Thiel has been taking heat for his scholarship kids failures in business. Example- http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/11/peter-thiel-promised-flying-cars-instead-we-got-caffeine-spray/

I heard him recently make the argument that engineering isn't "education" in a podcast, perhaps in part because of things touched on in the above article.

Kids choose their majors for all sorts of reasons. My experience with engineers who chose to be engineers on their own, did so not because they were looking for comfort, but because they were looking for hard and interesting problems to work on and solve. If we use Steve Wozniak as an example of the proto-engineer, he was after neither money or comfort. He was after interesting challenges that had nothing to do with sales or operations. I know plenty of engineers that don't need to work but continue with "slowlane" jobs just for that reason.

This all said, I do agree with the premise of OP, we are in a crazy education bubble.

oh yea? how old are those "very rich engineers".

At my graduation ceremony some old fart engineer came up on stage and basically said

"This degree is only the beginning! Now you have to be an apprentice engineer for some years, get certifications, etc etc etc etc and then you will be fully licensed engineer... and dont forget renewals etc etc etc..."

actually computer engineering is so new there's still no licensing stuff from what i know... unlike civil engineering and whatnot...

 

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[Delmania]

oh yea? how old are those "very rich engineers".

At my graduation ceremony some old fart engineer came up on stage and basically said

"This degree is only the beginning! Now you have to be an apprentice engineer for some years, get certifications, etc etc etc etc and then you will be fully licensed engineer... and dont forget renewals etc etc etc..."

actually computer engineering is so new there's still no licensing stuff from what i know... unlike civil engineering and whatnot...

Neither computer nor software engineering have a licensing system in place.

 

[jon.a]

Almost everybody tried to cheat in some way, including me.
In my opinion, that's because of the horrible grading policy which almost universally across all classes with few fluctuations went like this:
MIDTERM 1: 20% of course grade
MIDTERM 2: 20% of course grade
FINAL: 60% of course grade
sometimes homework was 5%, and sometimes class projects combined to 15%.

Now 70% is the D/C- barrier, 80 is C+/B- barrier, 90 is B+/A- barrier.
Considering it was generally considered that a degree below a 3.0 GPA(B) is equivalent to toiler paper, you had to at least shoot for 80 or higher for the class.

With that grading system if you F*ck up just ONE midterm you already go down to the C+/B- barrier...
And forget about that final... it's a heart attack waiting to happen because even if you did ok during the whole course, a few stupid mistakes on the final with a finger slip on the calculator combined with an a**hole professor who only grades based on the answer and not the shown work will mean you FAIL.

I think this is wrong, it forces students to focus on passing tests one way or another, "test passing" is the major skill cultivated in college...
I think a game changing improvement would be to make class projects account for at least 30% of the grade, homework for around ~10%, and all tests combined for no more than 60% percent. This way tests are still important for getting a good grade, but the projects and homework really help out your grade, and in fact will make you more prepared for the tests since you're more motivated to do well on homework and projects.

One guy had a PANIC ATTACK during electromagnetics test, a medical professional came into the class LOL!!! that shit distracted all of us during the test MAN!!!

I happened to be exceptionally skilled at keeping calm during a test and doing my absolute best with the knowledge i had.
I also had an awesome cheating strategy to help. I'd type formulas and examples in tiny font and print it out, cut the pieces out of the page and hide them in the palm of my hand on the test. Of course if i didn't understand at all how the formulas worked then the cheats wouldn't help anyway... professors often changed up the examples enough so you can't just use the same stuff from previous semesters verbatim.

I got a lot of crazy close calls in college, REALLY close calls where my GPA almost got destroyed one semester and I only made it through with some flesh wounds using sheer force of will, focus, and strategic brilliance.
I think it was during my second semester in my sophomore year and i took 6 courses, 18 credits worth, i think 4 of them were major complicated classes. For some weird reason i was EXTREMELY lazy that semester, i often skipped class(huge no no in college with 1.5 hour classes) and i had a really bad stroke of luck of some tests and was basically destined to fail like 3 of the courses and get bad grades in the other 3. This would have literally been a waste of a semester. One of my professors even recommended that i drop the course because even if i aced the 60% final i would still get a D, and in another class i would have flat out failed unless i aced the final as well which would get me a C. In a third class i was going down the same road with a failed midterm. and in a fourth class and fifth classes i barely even showed up...

So i strategically dropped the class where i failed the midterm.
For the 2 classes where i had to ace the final i went into absolute AUTISTIC GENIUS PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY MODE and spent hours and hours in the school library preparing for the finals. I ended up getting that D and C for acing the finals, i didn't care because i didn't have to retake those 2 courses so i was making progress towards graduating...

One of the classes i barely showed up to had a rare grading system where its 50% one project and 50% second project. I literally missed the day the professor assigned the first project, and i came to class on the day it was due!!!!!
I went into full panic mode, thinking quickly i ran downstairs into the library, messaged a friend who took the course before, got his project, made some modifications to it barely understanding what i was doing and submitted it via email to the professor... got an A on the project... did the same thing exact thing for the second project and got a B- for the class... i literally WINGED the whole class... thankfully it was an assembly programming course which I didn't need whatsoever in any other course.

the last class had such an easy teacher everyone got an A except for me with a B-... waste of easy GPA boost... speaking of GPA mines got tattered into a 2.7 that semester... it took the next 3 years of college to bring it back up to a 3.0 which i thankfully graduated with, so no toiler paper... or kindling...

I had other close calls but this was my make it or break it point in my life at the time... absolutely insane semester, i still can't believe i pulled it off without failing anything...


The "career center" was less than helpful.... the college already got their money for me... so yea...

The best thing college taught me is DISCIPLINE and the belief that i can really accomplish anything i put my mind to, it just takes time and continuous effort, and sometimes intense effort.

Disciplined Cheating? I must have done it all wrong.

 

[Bouncing Soul]

Neither computer nor software engineering have a licensing system in place.

There is a Computer Engineering PE track. I'm guessing it's extremely rarely taken...

The PE is really only necessary for Civil or Environmental engineers. Basically it's for engineers who have the final sign off on things some government org is going to file away so they can come back after you later if there's a problem.

 

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[luniac]

Disciplined Cheating? I must have done it all wrong.

in one class the professor didn't give a shit so much half the class got 100's one test ... we had copies of old tests underneath the new test and they were very similar, and on the final test one dude had a laptop open with answers and we copied off the screen for some of the questions LOL!!! best professor i ever had though, he let me make a video game for our senior design course and this was partially the gateway for me to start my app fastlane... it's unheard off to let someone make a damn video game for a computer science senior design course but he saw my passion for it and let me do it. Amazing insight, i think the guy was rich too, coincidence?? i think not. He even blatantly named the smartest students in the class and took us out to a restaurant at the end of the semester! no professor came close to his level of class and keeping it real.

In some other course we were allowed to hand write an 8.5/11 formula sheet but i made mine so dense with formulas that i was able to hide entire examples in the formula sheet!!! it was hysterical...
the professor just looked at it, remarked a how messy it looked and moved on LOL
meanwhile i remembered all the spots on the sheet where i wrote the examples.

 

[luniac]

There is a Computer Engineering PE track. I'm guessing it's extremely rarely taken...

The PE is really only necessary for Civil or Environmental engineers. Basically it's for engineers who have the final sign off on things some government org is going to file away so they can come back after you later if there's a problem.

The whole software industry is so damn messy. I kept reading in college how in the real world project deadlines keep getting blown, often going overbudget. Maintaining old databases and infrastructure is a real hassle, i think only in the last 3-4 years medical insurance databases are finally being updated.
Everything was written in FORTRAN language or some shit lol and is completely obsolete.

There is a real need in the industry for efficiently updating old software infrastructure, lots of money to be made...