Put Yourself Out There and Opportunity Presents Itself(need advise)

[luniac]

I just got a bombshell dropped on me when i got in to work this morning.

As some of you may know from my other thread, i've been working on game apps for some time. I've recently finally released my Zombie Crisp game on android after 1.5 years of learning and working.
I'm currently working on the iphone version and also implementing a Global Leaderboard into the game for that extra viral potential. So my hands are pretty full.

But as i said, a goddamn BOMBSHELL has been dropped on me this morning.
I come in and my coworker/business partner/teacher who does in game/promotional artwork for me told me that this guy he knows who's like a business mentor to him as well was playing the game on his android at a board meeting where he was meeting some clients, and apparently everyone started asking about the game and playing it and some app conversation started going on, and now he wants to make my coworker and I an offer to make an app for one of his clients!!!

I even briefly spoke with him on the phone about an hour ago and he was like "I'm currently charging my client 4000$ flat fee for this, but I need you guys to tell me how you're gonna do this, hourly or flat rate"

I just basically said "send us the requirements for the app, we'll make an assessment and get back to you regarding how we can approach this, thanks so much for the opportunity!!!!"

He's like "Oh don't worry this is just the beginning, i got lots more potential clients for you"

Guys I'm feel like i just got dropped into the deep end of the pool, with bricks tied to my feet!
He briefly mentioned the app, something finance related that the client wants to build a business around, and here is where i got some decisions to make and could use some opinions.


The thing is I'm a game developer first, and programmer second. I am NOT a professional programmer, i know my fundamental very well but I'm NO expert on the latest programming languages, libraries, cutting edge methodologies, nor did i need to be to make games(so far at least)

I use Unity3D as my main software, i have also purchased hundreds of dollars worth of plugin assets over the last 1.5 years while developing my game to assist in implementing certain features. I have personally written maybe 2000-3000 lines of code, mostly to create the actual GAMEPLAY in my game, the interactions between objects, simple AI, integration of the plugins into my game,etc etc.

Basically what im saying is I'm reasonably confident in my software environment, making casual games, but making a finance app is a COMPLETELY different type of beast, if i can't use my Unity3D software for it.


However I may have a solution. I'm really considering outsourcing as a viable option here for the following reasons.
1) I have a computer engineering degree, I have taken a course on software development and have created Use Case descriptions, technical requirement document, business requirement document, that kind of stuff.
2) I can think from the perspective of programmers since i have created my own programs, and i'm confident i can do a good job of clearly explaining the requirements of the app to outsourced workers.
3) FASTLANE! if i have to learn to code all these apps myself, then even if i earn enough to quit my day job, it will be replaced with a WAY MORE STRESSFUL coding job for clients. If i get proficient at outsourcing this stuff, I'll have the awesome position of MIDDLEMAN! I've always had pretty great people skills, and i've always had the introverted technical side as well. I really think I can do a great job at this!


But yea... as you guys can see my relatively calm morning just turned into a raging storm in my mind... talk about potentially life changing event. I have a good thing going for me, having a pretty low stress job with internet access and my Unity3d program installed on the work computer so i can work on my games at work and at home, maximizing my productivity.

I REALLY don't want to become a full time coder making big time apps for companies, i know fastlane means you fullfill NEEDS and not do what you're passionate about, but even when i make games there are many things I'm not passionate about like social features, performance optimizations, texture formats, etc, but i do these things because they're necessary. I'm not exactly passionate about outsourcing stuff either, but I really feel like i can do a good job, and that's what gets me excited at the whole prospect of it.

The big question would be price. I know on elance(or upwork now) even basic apps can cost around 2000 dollars to make, im thinking that since we're so new, even if I have to pay extra money out of my own pocket to get this app made, it'll be worth it long term since I'm building business relationships and experience in outsourcing. This feels like TRUE fastlane to me.

ANY OPINIONS?
I love you guys because you're all so candid.

 

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[Digamma]

"Financial app" can mean anything from a glorified calculator to a stock trading tool.

Anyway, you can jump in cold.
Don't ask hourly pay for something you don't know how to do. Ask for the most you can ask to the middleman. Then figure it out.

BTW, what do you use to make your apps? Do you go native on both platforms?

 

[luniac]

"Financial app" can mean anything from a glorified calculator to a stock trading tool.

Anyway, you can jump in cold.
Don't ask hourly pay for something you don't know how to do. Ask for the most you can ask to the middleman. Then figure it out.

BTW, what do you use to make your apps? Do you go native on both platforms?

Ok, i guess once ill get the actual app requirements i'll do my best to come at a cost, make an upwork listing and see what happens regarding prices.

No i don't do native at all. I avoid native like the plague. I use Unity3D and i can build to an android .apk file or an iphone xcode project from the SAME unity project. That's the whole beauty of it. If i need native integration to facebook, twitter, google, things like that, i buy a plugin which does all that for me and gives me functions i can call from my scripts, no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[benhebert]

Have you read Built to Sell?

I recommend staying away from business opportunities outside of your domain unless you ABSOLUTELY need the cash infusion.

If you already made a great game, you can make more of them and profit.

You might waste a ton of time and energy into this false promise.

Do what you know and keep crushing it.

 

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[ilrein]

If your experience is exclusively with Unity, then you know you will face difficulties.

I wouldn't recommend outsourcing either. You're on the hook for the freelancer, and what if they fail to deliver? Or what if they deliver something mediocre, and you can't help with the product at all?

That said, take a look at the actual requirements. Chances are the apps in question are 1000x easier than a mobile gaming app.

 

[luniac]

Have you read Built to Sell?

I recommend staying away from business opportunities outside of your domain unless you ABSOLUTELY need the cash infusion.

If you already made a great game, you can make more of them and profit.

You might waste a ton of time and energy into this false promise.

Do what you know and keep crushing it.

never read built to sell.

Yes time is so precious for me, im lucky to even get 6 hours of sleep due to working on my game and a sport semi-professionally.

I think im gonna outsource this job, whatever it is unless its really very simple, and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, i still got my original plan of making awesome games and going viral. If it does work out, maybe it won't be so time intensive. I think it's worth a shot at least one time.

If your experience is exclusively with Unity, then you know you will face difficulties.

I wouldn't recommend outsourcing either. You're on the hook for the freelancer, and what if they fail to deliver? Or what if they deliver something mediocre, and you can't help with the product at all?

That said, take a look at the actual requirements. Chances are the apps in question are 1000x easier than a mobile gaming app.

It is indeed exclusively with unity, i did it on purpose, id rather be an expert with one thing and have the ability to provide great value with it, rather then having some knowledge in various disciplines and not be competitive.

Failure to deliver is indeed the risk with outsourcing. You can minimize that risk by hiring developers with good feedback and being VERY CLEAR as to what the requirements are. I have bought an ebook in the past called "the app shortcut" that gives pretty decent guidelines on how to do it right. That's why i figure ill try to do it, if it fails it fails.

 

[zerobrainwash]

If you are going to accept this guy's offers, it won't be much different than working for yet another boss. To really make it, you have to get to the clients directly and find out the problem, why do they need the app. Once you know the why, explain how you will solve their problem and calculate your pricing based on the value that the solution will bring to the client.

In terms of outsourcing, I see no problem with that but you have to consider that your reputation is on the line. So either find a freelancer in whom you have great confidence, or be transparent that you are going to outsource some of the work so that if something goes wrong, you will at least have an explanation.

 

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[luniac]

If you are going to accept this guy's offers, it won't be much different than working for yet another boss. To really make it, you have to get to the clients directly and find out the problem, why do they need the app. Once you know the why, explain how you will solve their problem and calculate your pricing based on the value that the solution will bring to the client.

In terms of outsourcing, I see no problem with that but you have to consider that your reputation is on the line. So either find a freelancer in whom you have great confidence, or be transparent that you are going to outsource some of the work so that if something goes wrong, you will at least have an explanation.

I'll be 100% transparent, i don't want no BS, if i'm going to outsource that's exactly what i'm gonna tell the guy.

Regarding him being yet another boss, I mean i do have the freedom to set a price once i see what the app is, i think it can go either way depending on the contract we draw up. I'm not gonna agree to anything that will make me subservient, i don't care if they won't do the contract then, I'm either gonna get a shot at this on my own terms, or he can find someone else to do it. Like i said, i got my own plan that i'm executing, i'm not in debt and i'm not strapped for cash, im doing ok.

Regarding reputation, I mean maybe i just don't know what im talking about, but since im doing video games im not too worried. It's a different industry, if my game is fun people will play.

 

[zerobrainwash]

Cool man, I like your attitude! You're right about the boss thing, a lot depends on how you draw up the contract but contract is an end to the means. What I'm trying to say is that if the guy is a middleman standing in-between you and the final client, your work is only being seen as a commodity in this relationship. This makes it hard to compete on price because they might as well just say "I have seen that some people on oDesk do this for $10/hr, why should I hire you?". Notably, having good reputation, good skills, etc. allows you to justify higher rates.

But now let's examine a hypothetical scenario of what happens if you talk directly to the client. He will tell you he needs an app. You'll ask him why and he'll tell they believe an app will help bring more customers. You find out the each new lead is worth $1 to them. If you are confident you can bring 1000 new leads through the app a month, that adds up to additional $12k revenue a year. Now you can send a proposal of $6,000 for the app instead of $3,000 for example because the client understands the value you can bring him, unlike most of your competitors. Now the end product might be fulfilled through the creation of an app but the proposal is about helping the client achieve his goals.

I have read your situation so if I'm misunderstanding something, my fault. I'm not saying to not take what the guy is offering you but what I just described here blew my mind when someone else told me this, radically new way to look at things. Either way, good luck

 

[Digamma]

Ok, i guess once ill get the actual app requirements i'll do my best to come at a cost, make an upwork listing and see what happens regarding prices.

No i don't do native at all. I avoid native like the plague. I use Unity3D and i can build to an android .apk file or an iphone xcode project from the SAME unity project. That's the whole beauty of it. If i need native integration to facebook, twitter, google, things like that, i buy a plugin which does all that for me and gives me functions i can call from my scripts, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Tell you what, I'm about to start a profile on Upwork and this might be exactly the kind of project I'm in for (I do cross platform web/app development). When you have requirements if you are looking to outsource send me a pm and let's talk about it. Could be a win win.

If you are going to accept this guy's offers, it won't be much different than working for yet another boss.

He's a client, not a boss. Following this logic, everyone you sell something to is "yet another boss". There is no escape!

This makes it hard to compete on price because they might as well just say "I have seen that some people on oDesk do this for $10/hr, why should I hire you?". Notably, having good reputation, good skills, etc. allows you to justify higher rates.

This is a problem only on paper. What happens, in real practice, is that most people prefer quality work. I know it seems strange, but 9 times out of 10 when the client makes a similar argument they are already sold on the price I made, and are just looking for assurance.
Now, for your middleman argument, you might have a point. But the client specifically asked for luniac, so I think it's more of a finder's fee situation.

 

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[zerobrainwash]

He's a client, not a boss. Following this logic, everyone you sell something to is "yet another boss". There is no escape!
This is a problem only on paper. What happens, in real practice, is that most people prefer quality work. I know it seems strange, but 9 times out of 10 when the client makes a similar argument they are already sold on the price I made, and are just looking for assurance.
Now, for your middleman argument, you might have a point. But the client specifically asked for luniac, so I think it's more of a finder's fee situation.

I'd say most freelancers are just employees without benefits. In a job you get hired to do some specific tasks, that's how people see most freelancers nowadays too. The dynamic of a relationship is still similar to that of an employer and employee.

Without a doubt most people prefer good quality work, quality should never be compromised on. But even if you are happy charging $35/hr, how will you ever be able to charge $200/hr? No one will pay that, it's only possible to achieve that if you decouple your working hours with the value you provide to clients.

And to be clear, currently I'm working as a freelance web/apps developer creating whatever clients request me to so I'm on the same boat. But I got tired of that and believe that the next step forward is to figure out how you can create your clients more value and not just make what they ask you to make.

EDIT: previous post was edited to answer my reply and I didn't see the edit before posting my own reply, what a mess

 

[luniac]

Tell you what, I'm about to start a profile on Upwork and this might be exactly the kind of project I'm in for (I do cross platform web/app development). When you have requirements if you are looking to outsource send me a pm and let's talk about it. Could be a win win.

He's a client, not a boss. Following this logic, everyone you sell something to is "yet another boss". There is no escape!
This is a problem only on paper. What happens, in real practice, is that most people prefer quality work. I know it seems strange, but 9 times out of 10 when the client makes a similar argument they are already sold on the price I made, and are just looking for assurance.
Now, for your middleman argument, you might have a point. But the client specifically asked for luniac, so I think it's more of a finder's fee situation.

sounds good man.

Cool man, I like your attitude! You're right about the boss thing, a lot depends on how you draw up the contract but contract is an end to the means. What I'm trying to say is that if the guy is a middleman standing in-between you and the final client, your work is only being seen as a commodity in this relationship. This makes it hard to compete on price because they might as well just say "I have seen that some people on oDesk do this for $10/hr, why should I hire you?". Notably, having good reputation, good skills, etc. allows you to justify higher rates.

But now let's examine a hypothetical scenario of what happens if you talk directly to the client. He will tell you he needs an app. You'll ask him why and he'll tell they believe an app will help bring more customers. You find out the each new lead is worth $1 to them. If you are confident you can bring 1000 new leads through the app a month, that adds up to additional $12k revenue a year. Now you can send a proposal of $6,000 for the app instead of $3,000 for example because the client understands the value you can bring him, unlike most of your competitors. Now the end product might be fulfilled through the creation of an app but the proposal is about helping the client achieve his goals.

I have read your situation so if I'm misunderstanding something, my fault. I'm not saying to not take what the guy is offering you but what I just described here blew my mind when someone else told me this, radically new way to look at things. Either way, good luck

i guess we'll see what happens, should be interesting regardless!

 

[Digamma]

I'd say most freelancers are just employees without benefits. In a job you get hired to do some specific tasks, that's how people see most freelancers nowadays too. The dynamic of a relationship is still similar to that of an employer and employee.

Are you saying this out of personal experience? I guess in many cases is like this, but that's a shortcoming of the freelancer.
Generally speaking, I feel like most people who pay me for my skills don't see me as an employee, but as a consultant whose opinion they trust. And I care for them like the project was my own. Everybody wins.

Without a doubt most people prefer good quality work, quality should never be compromised on. But even if you are happy charging $35/hr, how will you ever be able to charge $200/hr? No one will pay that, it's only possible to achieve that if you decouple your working hours with the value you provide to clients.

I know consultants who charge more than 30k a week. Again, I don't think you know the field you're talking about.
Understand that freelancing like you see on Upwork is the absolute bottom of the field. "Real" freelancers for businesses charge a whole different kind of price.
I'm interested in it because I live in a country where, well, there is not much work for me to do with live clients, and it's a great way to make a living while I work on my own stuff.

 

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[zerobrainwash]

What I say is based on 3 years experience of freelancing but since I'm also a university student, you can discount a lot of it since I don't spend enough time working and gaining jobs as much as I would like to. I too am from a country where it's hard to find good clients so internet is my best friend.

I respect that you have great relationships with your clients, and the guys you know who charge 30k a week. Shows you and them are doing it right. You had great keyword in your post - "consultant". That makes all the difference and that's my point. You don't want to be at the bottom of the food chain and the reasoning I described above is one way to do it. We are probably looking at same thing from different angles.

It would be smart to guess most people here are business-savvy but I've seen too many other creatives fall into "commodity" trap and lose joy out of their work, most often not because of their lack of hard skills but soft ones. Using me as an example, I'm mostly a front-end developer and somehow slowly became the guy churning out sites that other designers created. I became a "manual" labour somehow. So I had to refocus and learn new skills and new ways to position myself. So going back to the initial post, I'm just trying to prevent luniac or others who are looking into freelancing to become "commoditized" like I was.

 

[Andy Black]

The middle man thing can have its benefits too. Once they see what you do, then they can actively find more clients for you, and they manage the client relationship while you do your small piece of the overall puzzle.

I subcontract/whitelabel my services to quite a few agencies and other freelancers. They aren't my boss, but more like partners.

 

[The-J]

If you go the outsourcing route, you have to tell them the value you add to the equation.

That stuff, the technical description stuff, the knowledge of what the client wants... THAT'S the value. The ability to tell the programmer exactly how it needs to be built (since you have knowledge of computer science and programming and such. The client REALLY doesn't want to deal with a programmer who might have trouble! That's where you come in.

By outsourcing, you are leveraging a better developer. But by being in the middle, you are reducing risk.

You are quality control. You are the piece of the puzzle that ultimately saves time and headaches down the road. And, to your client, it's not an extra cost to them.

 

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[zerobrainwash]

If you go the outsourcing route, you have to tell them the value you add to the equation.

That stuff, the technical description stuff, the knowledge of what the client wants... THAT'S the value. The ability to tell the programmer exactly how it needs to be built (since you have knowledge of computer science and programming and such. The client REALLY doesn't want to deal with a programmer who might have trouble! That's where you come in.

By outsourcing, you are leveraging a better developer. But by being in the middle, you are reducing risk.

You are quality control. You are the piece of the puzzle that ultimately saves time and headaches down the road. And, to your client, it's not an extra cost to them.

Interesting take on this, shows how important correct positioning of yourself can be. So now if you are helping to mitigate risk and potentially reduce costs, it's a win-win situation. But now imagine luniac looking for someone to outsource to. He will be looking at that person's rate and price of the final product i.e. app. He'll choose one based on lowest rate while still making sure that the outsourced guy can deliver the app with required quality. So avoid being that guy!

 

[ilrein]

The middle man thing can have its benefits too. Once they see what you do, then they can actively find more clients for you, and they manage the client relationship while you do your small piece of the overall puzzle.

I subcontract/whitelabel my services to quite a few agencies and other freelancers. They aren't my boss, but more like partners.

Gotta love capitalism. Everybody wins.

 

[luniac]

Interesting take on this, shows how important correct positioning of yourself can be. So now if you are helping to mitigate risk and potentially reduce costs, it's a win-win situation. But now imagine luniac looking for someone to outsource to. He will be looking at that person's rate and price of the final product i.e. app. He'll choose one based on lowest rate while still making sure that the outsourced guy can deliver the app with required quality. So avoid being that guy!

But isn't that what a middleman does, make sure the programmers provide the necessary quality and making sure the client doesn't get ripped off cost wise?

 

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[zerobrainwash]

But isn't that what a middleman does, make sure the programmers provide the necessary quality and making sure the client doesn't get ripped off cost wise?

Yeah exactly, I was looking at it from the angle that they wanted for you to do the programming. Anyway, the discussion above left me thinking I may not be as experienced as I assumed, or my ideas are not as good, or I'm unable to articulate my message clearly so I've got nothing more to contribute for now. But I hope this gig works well for you, it all starts with putting yourself out there!

 

[luniac]

lol just got the word doc with the general description for the app, its a game made up of like 4 minigames. This client doesn't know ANYTHING about app development apparently, for example for ONE of the minigames he's like "its a pretty simple game, pretty much like candy crush......."
lets just say the rest of the "minigames" involves infinite runners, dodging... jesus!!! lol

Even if i get an generic candy crush type plugin for Unity3d, itll still take awhile to customize it to their needs.

So me doing this for them by myself is out of the question. Outsourcing is the way to go with this.

We're gonna have a little conference probably this sunday. The word doc had very few specific details which is not how app development works. Every single detail has to be thought out as best as possible first, we need sketches of every screen in the game, the placement of the buttons and images, details on how exactly each minigame works and what happens visually and functionally.. .etc...etc...

I got this

 

[luniac]

My partner was able to convince the client to make only 1 of the games instead of 4! It's a word type game.
He used this link to point out the costs of app development http://www.bluecloudsolutions.com/blog/cost-develop-app/#design
Thank goodness.

 

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[Veloce Grey]

Have you read Built to Sell?

I recommend staying away from business opportunities outside of your domain unless you ABSOLUTELY need the cash infusion.

That's a good book and a good recommendation. Short, easy to read and should be relatable for many people, particularly the part you mention in the second sentence. It sounds simple at first but dangling some quick cash in front of anyone can have them pivoting all over the place for short term gains.

 

[extraordwealth]

Guy try to go into what you know. It is what you know that gives access your money bag not what you don't know. Stick with the game and be good at it first.

 

[luniac]

That's a good book and a good recommendation. Short, easy to read and should be relatable for many people, particularly the part you mention in the second sentence. It sounds simple at first but dangling some quick cash in front of anyone can have them pivoting all over the place for short term gains.

I haven't read it but i really do get the point. I'm so immersed in slowly and painfully building my own app game EMPIRE that i cannot possibly code apps for anyone else, i literally don't have the time even if i wanted to.

I am however willing to give the outsourcing a shot, it doesn't feel as intense and i think it's worth a try to see if i can handle it.

Guy try to go into what you know. It is what you know that gives access your money bag not what you don't know. Stick with the game and be good at it first.

I am i am my game company is my #1 and only priority.

 

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[akbigdog]

I like being the middleman, but it's almost always between the end client and a few freelancers. I've done one paid client app this way. Most of these jobs are either video production/editing, brand development, or website design/dev.

Personally, "financial app" scares me a bit. Depending on the requirements, you could be on the hook for liability if things go badly and people's financial info is compromised. I've worked with companies that process hundreds of millions of dollars monthly, and there is a tremendous burden to keep their systems locked down like Ft. Knox—PCI Level I compliance and all that. I guess I'm saying be careful and be wise about it.

In any case, $4k seems low. I know it sounds like a lot when you're first getting started doing freelance work, but it goes quickly when working with a sub, and there likely won't be anything left.

Remember that for a freelance business to be fastlane, it has to be a people system. If it requires you to keep it running, it's slowlane.

Finally, it took me far too long to realize, but my profit from these types of jobs is what's left after I've paid everyone—INCLUDING MYSELF—for time spent on the project. In other words, pay yourself for your hourly work just as though you were your own subcontractor. If your job is profitable, you'll have some left over in your business. That's the gross profit.

Otherwise, go for it. Be careful. Be smart. But go after opportunity when it knocks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[luniac]

Had the conference call, went pretty great, no hiccups, i let the client know to describe the game with as much detail as humanly possible because there will always be questions so it's best to have the clients vision as worked out as possible. I told the client that its better to have 1 game that's polished and fun compared to 4 minigames that work but are unpolished. I also said to keep it simple and that we can always add more to the game later when needed. I really stressed the point that everything needs to be planned out as much as possible, drawings of screens, layouts, transitions, game elements, every detail.

Client seemed pretty satisfied with the call.

 

[luniac]

the dude wants us to sign this:



I have several reasons to not want to sign this:
1)the wording is vague
2)penalty for breaking any of the vague wording is 10000 dollars.
3)I don't have a registered company so if shit hits the fan and i lose, that 10k is my PERSONAL debt.
4)December 31, 2020 is a long time from now, i dont wanna be attached to this for that long.
5)For the finished job my cut would be 500 bucks. I don't feel it's worth the potential nightmare of owing 10k bucks.
6)Even if this client will open the door for more potential clients, it's still not worth this 10k risk.
7)I'm already mentally on edge from working on my own app games, challenges left and right... i don't need this to further destroy my piece of mind. Everything just doesn't feel right about this to me, its like a gut feeling.

 

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[luniac]

hahaaa i got the 10k down to 1k!

Much more reasonable!

 

[luniac]

Just reviewed clients drawings and written design for game.

I feel like i bit off more than i could chew... feels very shaky...

The question is would i be doing my client a disservice by trying to tackle this project without the confidence i can pull it off... or just coming clean now and saying that i feel overwhelmed by this.