Advice needed on my business

[freelancedev]

I want to preface this by stating that this is absolutely not intended as a pity post or negativity. I'm in a very difficult spot at the moment, and I feel like this community is one of the few that would fully understand my situation.

I started an online marketing business in 2013 with the intention of making it big and taking over the world, with all the enthusiasm of someone who was wet behind the ears in the entrepreneurial world. I sold almost every possession I have to fund my start up and even got a job so that I could continue to fund my venture.

Two years later, I am still very far from success. I've made some money online (I'd estimate around £2500) but spent closer to £20,000 (yeah really stupid, I don't need reminding of this). Anyway, it leaves me in a really tough position where I'm leaking money through expenses to do what I do at a rate of knots but not really bringing anything in.

The majority of the £2500 I have made was from banner ads about a year ago (may I add that this was revenue and I was never profitable with the ads I made), and had not made money for a while until recently making a pitiful £25 through a website.

When my banner ads proved to be fruitless I changed my focus to SEO, first starting to get clients which I struggled with so I switched to building "pay per lead" sites with the aim to rank highly on google and sell the leads to local businesses. I've learned to be ok at SEO but the process is very slow and I've not made much money from my websites, still very much unprofitable.

All of this would be well and good in a different scenario. If I had started building "pay per lead" sites back when I first started building the business I may not be as pessimistic as I am now, but I just feel like the cold harsh truth is that I'm going to find it very difficult to make this business work now, if it does work I'll be waiting a long time.

My personal life has taken a real hit and I'm losing the will to live any more. I've given up a lot; my social life and all of this money, to try and make things work, I still live at home with my parents and I detest the slow lane job which I work at.

I wouldn't mind working a slow lane job along side my business if it was something I enjoyed and which allowed me to move out, meet women etc. I've even got a degree so feel I should be able to get something I don't hate so much but it seems the only jobs around where I live are call centre customer service jobs, just utter rubbish.

I'm losing my train of thought a little now and not sure where I'm going with this post, but the bottom line of it is that my unsuccessful business has turned me into a manic depressive with nothing to live for and I just don't know what to do anymore.

Sorry if that was a bit heavy, here is a cute kitten to lighten the mood

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I see no mention of a need being filled or a problem being solved, therefore you don't have a business.

I see someone trying to make money.

If you want to paint a house white and you start with a bucket of red paint, you're not going to like the outcome.

That's my opinion.

PS: Welcome to the forum.

 

[The-J]

I see no mention of a need being filled or a problem being solved, therefore you don't have a business.

I see someone trying to make money.

If you want to paint a house white and you start with a bucket of red paint, you're not going to like the outcome.

That's my opinion.

PS: Welcome to the forum.

/thread

SEO is too slow. Clients want more than you can promise them. Pay-per-lead sites are only valuable if you have leads.

I'm curious... how in the hell did you spend $30,000 (offhand conversion) in two years on a business that didn't work? I'd actually like to see you outline every dollar you lost so we can see what you were doing wrong. Although I can probably guess: you were chasing the cat and not leaving the tuna.

EDIT: $31,448 USD, $37,791 CAD

 

[freelancedev]

I see no mention of a need being filled or a problem being solved, therefore you don't have a business.

I see someone trying to make money.

If you want to paint a house white and you start with a bucket of red paint, you're not going to like the outcome.

That's my opinion.

PS: Welcome to the forum.

Thanks MJ, you're right I have been trying to make money.

/thread

SEO is too slow. Clients want more than you can promise them. Pay-per-lead sites are only valuable if you have leads.

I'm curious... how in the hell did you spend $30,000 (offhand conversion) in two years on a business that didn't work? I'd actually like to see you outline every dollar you lost so we can see what you were doing wrong. Although I can probably guess: you were chasing the cat and not leaving the tuna.

I am admittedly guilty of "chasing the cat" or trying to make money, you're both right there. I've spent a lot of money on SEO coaching (some good, some bad), banner space, web hosting, domain names (some of which were expensive due to their authority), software, plugins etc., too much to name really.

One of my pay per lead sites ranks on the first page of google and has generated some leads which I have charged for, but the lead value is too low (I was mislead by some misleading data when researching the niche) and as you say SEO is slow and difficult to scale.

The question is, what do I do now? Persist? I have a few pay per lead sites which are close to ranking at the top of google which could make me a little bit of "passive" income, but they're not going to make a full time income or come close to recouping my huge costs.

My stomach turns at the thought of packing in after spending and losing so much money. How does the mantra go, you can't win unless you're willing to fail (or something to that effect)? One of the reasons I've kept going for so long is that the thought of giving up and calling it a loss is just inconceivable to me. Devastated would be an understatement.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

My stomach turns at the thought of packing in after spending and losing so much money.

I don't know the details of your business and if it's scalable or not.

You could be 3 feet from GOLD.

But you also could be falling for the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html

 

[SlowlaneJay]

One of the reasons I've kept going for so long is that the thought of giving up and calling it a loss is just inconceivable to me.

Sounds like you should read Seth Godin's, The Dip.

Or at least read the free synopsis:
"The way you become the best in the world is by quitting the stuff where you can’t be the best… Sticking with something just so you can be mediocre at it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Being average is for losers."

That book helped me quit something I'd sunk hours and hours into. Luckily, I got out before the project cost thousands of dollars too. Worth a read so you can decide whether this is worth holding on to.



This post contains zero affiliate links.

 

[freelancedev]

I don't know the details of your business and if it's scalable or not.

You could be 3 feet from GOLD.

But you also could be falling for the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html

Yes I've no doubt become emotionally attached and made some bad decisions along the way because of this influence.

To explain the business to you:
- I know, for example, that "wedding photographer Newcastle" gets 720 searches on google every month (google tells me this in adwords)
- I can use SEO to make sure my website appears as the first result for this search term
- People from Newcastle searching on google for a wedding photographer find and click on my website as the first result
- I forward interested leads on to a company in the area who are interested in having more exposure (it's a very easy sell because you're basically selling them more business)

I suppose going back to the idea of a problem being solved, you're solving the problem of people looking for a wedding photographer in Newcastle on google by putting them in touch with a company who can fulfil the work for them.

 

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[The-J]

- I know, for example, that "wedding photographer Newcastle" gets 720 searches on google every month (google tells me this in adwords)
- I can use SEO to make sure my website appears as the first result for this search term

Why not use Adwords? @Andy Black might be able to shed some light on this

 

[freelancedev]

Why not use Adwords? @Andy Black might be able to shed some light on this

The websites can only realistically bring in any decent profit if the traffic is free. Using adwords dramatically reduces the profit margins. The "leverage" of being ranked number 1 in google is the USP I suppose, if you're buying adwords traffic that's something which any business can just log into google and do.

 

[theag]

I wouldn't mind working a slow lane job along side my business if it was something I enjoyed and which allowed me to move out, meet women etc.

I stopped reading here. You have to decide whats more important to you. Going out and meeting women or building a successful business.

I never go out, havent seen a girl in more than 2 years since my gf dropped me for working too much and not wanting to "enjoy life". I work 16-18 hours every single day with no days off. A fulltime job because I need to to pay off my 25k in personal debt (because of failed businesses, like you), and a business thats on track to do a very profitable 0,5-1M of sales in its first full year of business. I dont pay myself from that business yet, because growth is more important to me than working less or having free time. Btw, it took me 4 years of constant failing to get to this point where I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm not nearly there yet.

Guys like me are your competition. And I crush guys with a workethic like yours with my spare hand while I brush my teeth in the morning.

So, dont be such a F*cking lazy crybaby. Get a job, work your a$$ off every free minute of the day, and forget about going out and women for the next few years.

Either that or its back to lifelong debt and mediocrity/sidewalking for you.

Good luck.

 

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[Andy Black]

I'm leaking money through expenses to do what I do at a rate of knots but not really bringing anything in.

Sort this out first. Nothing's so bad you can't make it worse.

 

[freelancedev]

Sort this out first. Nothing's so bad you can't make it worse.

Difficult, my operational costs are all mostly 100% necessary.

 

[Andy Black]

The websites can only realistically bring in any decent profit if the traffic is free. Using adwords dramatically reduces the profit margins. The "leverage" of being ranked number 1 in google is the USP I suppose, if you're buying adwords traffic that's something which any business can just log into google and do.

Not many businesses believe in spending money on traffic, so not any business will even attempt it.

The ones doing it tend to do it poorly, even more so amongst local service businesses.

If you're able to sell the leads, then you just need to generate them for cheaper than you're selling them.

Paid search is instant, consistent, and scalable.

I can throw up a landing page and be generating leads within hours. The bit I've not nailed is signing up businesses to buy the leads. It seems you already have that sorted.

Use AdWords to buy data as well as traffic. Data about what services in what locations people are searching for, and to estimate what a lead in each service-location permutation would cost.

Work out how to generate leads cheaper, or sell them for more.

... my operational costs are all mostly 100% necessary.

Is that not your cost of generating leads? My operational costs to generate leads is just the cost of the traffic. Domain names and hosting is negligible.


It might be worth reading the posts linked to in my signature. One requires you to have enough speed points to get access to the Speedway forum, and another is an INSIDERS post.

 

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[theag]

and another is an INSIDERS post

You're such a capitalist pig Andy. The poor guy is already over his head with expenses and you're trying to sell him another subscription!

 

[LTL]

Get into joint ventures offline and offline lead generation.
Choose lawyers, accountants, real estate agents, investors, brokers and companies with a high transaction value
Offline is cheaper, faster and a better quality of lead...


You can make 6 figures a year and do it subtractively ...meet women, move out etc

Some people just aren't built for the fastlane but you can still make "good" money

I can throw up a landing page and be generating leads within hours. The bit I've not nailed is signing up businesses to buy the leads. It seems you already have that sorted.

Coldcallin and follow ups can fix that, what businesses are you targetting ?

 

[RogueInnovation]

Essay: Why it is harder for me than everyone else

Because I deserve it now
Because its making me feel like cr#p
Because I did EVERYTHING I thought was supposed to work

And it still hasn't worked.

~ signed sincerely, the OP


I'm not a sacrastic dude, I'm just struggling to find a way to get this through to you.
Maaaaybe you are doing the WRONG things???
And are relying on an entitled attitude rather than setting up a system that will after years of following it will ensure you are GOOD ENOUGH to make a solid business.


Yes its hard.
Boohoo, whatever, I'm with you, it sucks a truckload of horse sh#t
But chin up.

Quit this marketting cr#p, or get a job in an actual marketting company so you can get a proper look at how its done.
Don't be ABOVE hard work and confusion (this is your problem)

Roll up those sleeves, don't act bummed out, keep goin, but do it smarter



I'm sorry about that.
I feel like that allllllllll the darn time.
And the best cure is workin on your business not b#tchin about it.
You DO have some problems
- overly reliant on marketting (shows you are chasing easy street)
- attach your lack of success with biz as trapping you with your life situ (dude, I travel around the world while scraping together money for ramen noodles)
- your first instinct isn't to try something different

Come on man
Just make a good plan
Give yourself the chance to succeed

 

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[Bellini]

nothing to live for

@A1roller , don't ever say anything like that.

I'm going to have to put on my counseling hat here (masters program in counseling) and tell you that your perspective is off balance because you are so depressed. (You need to address this separately)

Failing is normal! It's an educational tool that tells you what is not working, which means you're just one step closer to figuring out what will work. Maybe that means a different strategy in your current business, or maybe it means a different business altogether.

Most successful people can tell you story after story of how many failures they've had. It's par for the course.

You're clearly intelligent, and clearly frustrated, but think of it this way: Either you will figure out a way to improve this current business and make it work, or you will chalk it up as an expensive lesson and move on to a business in which you will be very successful.

When you have time, watch the video posted below. It's about a young man who failed so miserably that Robert Kiyosaki asked him to come on his show because he was actually impressed with him. (Don't be concerned with the fact the he was in real estate, what he experienced is applicable to any person or business)

Don't give up, you'll get there

youtube.com/watch?v=vXChpjJRPCk

 

[Bila]

I stopped reading here. You have to decide whats more important to you. Going out and meeting women or building a successful business.

I never go out, havent seen a girl in more than 2 years since my gf dropped me for working too much and not wanting to "enjoy life". I work 16-18 hours every single day with no days off. A fulltime job because I need to to pay off my 25k in personal debt (because of failed businesses, like you), and a business thats on track to do a very profitable 0,5-1M of sales in its first full year of business. I dont pay myself from that business yet, because growth is more important to me than working less or having free time. Btw, it took me 4 years of constant failing to get to this point where I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel, but I'm not nearly there yet.

Guys like me are your competition. And I crush guys with a workethic like yours with my spare hand while I brush my teeth in the morning.

So, dont be such a F*cking lazy crybaby. Get a job, work your a$$ off every free minute of the day, and forget about going out and women for the next few years.

Either that or its back to lifelong debt and mediocrity/sidewalking for you.

Good luck.

[/QYou should post one of these every morning

You should post one of these every morning .

 

[freelancedev]

Essay: Why it is harder for me than everyone else

Because I deserve it now
Because its making me feel like cr#p
Because I did EVERYTHING I thought was supposed to work

And it still hasn't worked.

~ signed sincerely, the OP


I'm not a sacrastic dude, I'm just struggling to find a way to get this through to you.
Maaaaybe you are doing the WRONG things???
And are relying on an entitled attitude rather than setting up a system that will after years of following it will ensure you are GOOD ENOUGH to make a solid business.


Yes its hard.
Boohoo, whatever, I'm with you, it sucks a truckload of horse sh#t
But chin up.

Quit this marketting cr#p, or get a job in an actual marketting company so you can get a proper look at how its done.
Don't be ABOVE hard work and confusion (this is your problem)

Roll up those sleeves, don't act bummed out, keep goin, but do it smarter



I'm sorry about that.
I feel like that allllllllll the darn time.
And the best cure is workin on your business not b#tchin about it.
You DO have some problems
- overly reliant on marketting (shows you are chasing easy street)
- attach your lack of success with biz as trapping you with your life situ (dude, I travel around the world while scraping together money for ramen noodles)
- your first instinct isn't to try something different

Come on man
Just make a good plan
Give yourself the chance to succeed

Not sure where people are getting the idea that I'm lazy from, considering I spend all of my free time on this business. I've had a bit of a 'break' these last couple of weeks after feeling severely burned out and frustrated, but its the first time I've had a proper break this whole 2 years. By proper break, I don't mean I stopped working on it all together either, just less. Seems it's a crime on this forum to want to avoid hitting your 30's and severely regretting not making any human connections through your twenties...

[MEDIA=youtube]vXChpjJRPCk[/MEDIA]

Thanks, I'll watch it.


Overall I have a handful of sites which are all moving up the rankings. I'm not confident that they will make me a lot of money if I'm successful in ranking them, but I should make at least some (like I already have done with one of the sites).

I'm not fulfilling a great need with any of these websites, I'm just putting the website in front of the eyes of people who are looking for the service. Searching for window blinds in my city on google? My website will be the first result (my competitive advantage) and receive the most phone calls. I get paid for every phone call the website generates. I suppose it's as "passive" as an income can realistically be which may be why people feel like I'm lazy, but a lot of hard work goes into building the sites and especially ranking them highly.

My problem is that after spending lots of time carefully reviewing what I'm doing, I'm not sure how "scaleable" as a business model this is, not to mention it is still yet to generate any meaningful income yet. The easy part is finding companies to buy leads, but ranking a brand new website against websites with lots of authority and age is difficult and can take lots of time. I have a great understanding of how SEO works and how to rank the websites, but it takes money that I don't have to really build anything at scale.

I'm considering my options and whether 'pivoting' is something I should consider. Within my domain of expertise (SEO) I have the option of branching out into building e-commerce stores or sourcing products to sell on amazon and ranking the products for high volume keywords. I feel like this approach has the potential to be just as frustrating as what I'm doing at the moment.

The other option is to start a new business with a unique product or service, but I have no idea what sort of product or service I could offer.

 

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[Brentnal]

Guys like me are your competition. And I crush guys with a workethic like yours with my spare hand while I brush my teeth in the morning.

 

[BigBrianC]

Your still not getting it. You are thinking "what can I offer?". Who cares! The real question is "What do people need?". Email people, call people. Ask them about their problems, figure out what they need. Once you figure out a need, solve it. Stop thinking about you, focus on them. And this is kind of radical, but once you find a solid need and get a landing page up and validate it, sell all of your mediocre sites. Use that money for startup cash on a real potential business with real potential profit.

 

[freelancedev]

Your still not getting it. You are thinking "what can I offer?". Who cares! The real question is "What do people need?". Email people, call people. Ask them about their problems, figure out what they need. Once you figure out a need, solve it. Stop thinking about you, focus on them. And this is kind of radical, but once you find a solid need and get a landing page up and validate it, sell all of your mediocre sites. Use that money for startup cash on a real potential business with real potential profit.

I get your sentiment, I really do. But selling the leads from these sites is really not an issue at all. I can close a deal (and have closed deals) on my first cold call of the day, because businesses are not going to turn down potential customers.

At the same time, I do get your sentiment, and I feel like I should be building a business where people "come to me" so to speak because they have a need to fill. It's difficult to build a business around the idea of building a website which takes months to rank in the hope that I can some day sell leads from it. It takes a lot of time and feels like you're making no progress a lot.

I'm struggling with the real potential business part and have no idea where to start with it all. I have some software which allows me to build an amazon affiliate e-commerce website (see this example) but again this heavily depends on ranking the website as the margins for affiliate/lead generation with paid traffic are so thin. I'm just very unsure of where to start.

 

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[RogueInnovation]

By proper break, I don't mean I stopped working on it all together either, just less. Seems it's a crime on this forum to want to avoid hitting your 30's and severely regretting not making any human connections through your twenties...

Haha, yeah

Don't worry about it, people will always hit you with the lazy stick, you've gotta live, otherwise what is the point?
No point getting too rigid, because flexibility is how you progress.

BUT, you aren't doing real business if its just marketting unless you are creating marketting for others and are a specialist. But you aren't, you just wasted money on marketting some random thing for yourself.

You need to consider doing more than just marketting, and give yourself a better foundation and perspective to work from

 

[freelancedev]

Haha, yeah

Don't worry about it, people will always hit you with the lazy stick, you've gotta live, otherwise what is the point?
No point getting too rigid, because flexibility is how you progress.

BUT, you aren't doing real business if its just marketting unless you are creating marketting for others and are a specialist. But you aren't, you just wasted money on marketting some random thing for yourself.

You need to consider doing more than just marketting, and give yourself a better foundation and perspective to work from

Yeah, reading a few of the other threads around here I can see that the lazy stick comes out quite often hah...

It doesn't feel like a business, it feels like a way to make money by exploiting the fact that I can rank websites highly on google. It doesn't mean to say it's not a good way to make money, there are people making thousands from affiliate websites without owning a real business as such. The problem with seo is, if google changes their algorithm and your site is affected you can lose your assets over night and have nothing remaining.

I've got a couple of sites which are close to making it to the first page of google and would earn me a little bit extra on the side so I'm not giving up on them just yet. I'm going to give them 2 more months before getting rid if they're still not making me any money.

You're right though, I do need to start building a real business. I did think about going down the client SEO path, where I act as an SEO agency. The problem is it's very competitive and therefore difficult to get any inbound customers like a real business should. I did some cold calling and direct mailing to try and acquire clients but it didn't work too well.

I've also thought about other ideas for businesses, but I find it hard to understand whether any of my ideas are any good. I've been toying around with the idea of a subscription box business (not sure this exists yet for my chosen niche, but there is a very big company having success with a similar idea).

I've thought about the idea of 'building an audience' and trying to find a need to fill for them. A couple of years ago I wrote a blog post on the movie 'fight club' which gained a lot of attention from the 'red pill' community over at reddit and it still gets at least a few views every day. I'm wondering whether I can go somewhere with that.

I suppose I don't really understand how to choose the 'right idea' as I feel like the ideas I'm having could be very mediocre.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Guys like me are your competition. And I crush guys with a workethic like yours with my spare hand while I brush my teeth in the morning.

So, dont be such a F*cking lazy crybaby. Get a job, work your a$$ off every free minute of the day, and forget about going out and women for the next few years.

Either that or its back to lifelong debt and mediocrity/sidewalking for you.

Powerful words, great reminder.

 

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[Andy Black]

I did think about going down the client SEO path, where I act as an SEO agency. The problem is it's very competitive and therefore difficult to get any inbound customers like a real business should. I did some cold calling and direct mailing to try and acquire clients but it didn't work too well.

That's because very few businesses want SEO, they just want the benefits/results that SEO brings, which is inbound leads.

What if you were to generate leads and use the leads to signup businesses? i.e. you provide the value up front and get paid after?

 

[Digamma]

Seems it's a crime on this forum to want to avoid hitting your 30's and severely regretting not making any human connections through your twenties...

That's exactly what it is. The idea is that is worth sacrificing *everything* in the short term to build something that will make your thirties an endless party.
I don't know if I agree 100% with this - I burn out if I don't get a break sometimes.
But. I'm turning 24 years old in a month, and I can feel I have less energy than I had at 20. I don't think I'm much off if I guess that I will have less energy at 28, and far less at 32.
I'm guessing it's a slow downhill path, so the best time to burn it to the ground it's yesterday. Second best today.
What energy will I need to spend money? Less than to make it, for sure.

 

[freelancedev]

That's because very few businesses want SEO, they just want the benefits/results that SEO brings, which is inbound leads.

What if you were to generate leads and use the leads to signup businesses? i.e. you provide the value up front and get paid after?

Well that is the whole idea with my pay per lead websites and what I'm doing at the moment.

 

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[RogueInnovation]

Yeah, reading a few of the other threads around here I can see that the lazy stick comes out quite often hah...

It doesn't feel like a business, it feels like a way to make money by exploiting the fact that I can rank websites highly on google. It doesn't mean to say it's not a good way to make money, there are people making thousands from affiliate websites without owning a real business as such. The problem with seo is, if google changes their algorithm and your site is affected you can lose your assets over night and have nothing remaining.

I've got a couple of sites which are close to making it to the first page of google and would earn me a little bit extra on the side so I'm not giving up on them just yet. I'm going to give them 2 more months before getting rid if they're still not making me any money.

You're right though, I do need to start building a real business. I did think about going down the client SEO path, where I act as an SEO agency. The problem is it's very competitive and therefore difficult to get any inbound customers like a real business should. I did some cold calling and direct mailing to try and acquire clients but it didn't work too well.

I've also thought about other ideas for businesses, but I find it hard to understand whether any of my ideas are any good. I've been toying around with the idea of a subscription box business (not sure this exists yet for my chosen niche, but there is a very big company having success with a similar idea).

I've thought about the idea of 'building an audience' and trying to find a need to fill for them. A couple of years ago I wrote a blog post on the movie 'fight club' which gained a lot of attention from the 'red pill' community over at reddit and it still gets at least a few views every day. I'm wondering whether I can go somewhere with that.

I suppose I don't really understand how to choose the 'right idea' as I feel like the ideas I'm having could be very mediocre.

Well, you eventually have to stop pining over this ideal you've built up in your mind.
The ins and outs of how and when to do that are up to you, but...
You shouldn't kid yourself about this SEO stuff too much.

Needs are something that are spotted by looking at where markets meet, and studying LOADS of different businesses in those different markets.

You get a FEEL after a while of what good ideas are, but you have to study ALL BUSINESSES not just lean on what you think is fastest.

It takes time but its a more solid strategy.

 

[Bellini]

I've also thought about other ideas for businesses, but I find it hard to understand whether any of my ideas are any good. ......

I suppose I don't really understand how to choose the 'right idea' as I feel like the ideas I'm having could be very mediocre.

Have you read MJ DeMarco's book, "The Millionaire Fastlane "? If not, get a copy as soon as you can. Most of us here have read it. It will answer a lot of the questions you have about your ideas, business, etc.

A lot of the guys who have posted here are offering you valuable advice. I see a common thread in all of it, too.