Ethics: Good Business vs Bad Business

[GuestUser112]

You've really got to do your best
Because your best slips into average every now and then
and average slips into bad VERY easily if you don't keep an eye on it
:/
Let us set examples that inspire people to care MORE

Reminds me of something Bruce Lee used to say:

“If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.”

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Andy Black]

I like the formula "R + R = Profit"

You get Repeat business and Referrals by doing right by people who buy from you.

They aren't customers until they are Repeat buyers.

And you don't have a business till you have customers.

It's the mantra of this forum, and that's why we're here... so thank you MJ and other forum members for putting so much importance on adding value.

 

[Mattie]

I think as much as we would like to meet perfection and ethics in society we really can't all the time. There's always going to be some variable that comes into play and by human nature we mess up under certain situations, extreme pressures, and stress. We can create what we choose, but than you have others that co-create along side of us that may or may not do what is ethical and humane.

As in cancer patients using morphine. I watched people be injected with morphine and other medications regardless if the patient was complaining of pain. So, I may not have agreed in certain situations, but I had no authority over a nurse or doctor. So, what are you to do if the law says this is legal? There were times I understood it was needed and other times it didn't make sense. So, there are moments when you're hands are tied and there's nothing you can do to stop events.

If you're in certain positions like Healthcare and Mental Health you see a lot of things you don't want to see, but there's nothing you can do, because it's all legal and psychiatrist's and doctor's know best. Same with animals. We do the best with what we can to be ethical in different situations. There's always debates over treatment of human's and animal's. Who get's to say what is right or wrong some will say? Unless we're standing their in the experience we aren't questioning it and we're not thinking about it? The theory is to let an animal and human die with dignity and respect. What is the most harmless thing to do. Even if certain family members disagree they have no say in it, which is why there is also power of attorney.

I watched some film on animals in the food industry one time. It was heart breaking, but I see over here in Europe they are doing things to do things organically, and treating animals in a nice way.

 

[Maxjohan]

Personally I love eating bacon and I don't think that killing animals is unethical if it is done humanely. If you compare killing an animal instantly with how most animals meet their end in the wild (watch a pack of wolves take down a moose..it's f*cked up)

Based on your logic it is unethical to eat because you're taking 'food out of the mouth of another'. Unethical to breathe for the same reason. Based on that logic I'd rather be unethical. There isn't any such thing as %100 ethical. It isn't something that can be measured like that. Let's not try not to be ridiculous.

I eat bacon too. Still, I was just pointing out that what we call good ethical business. May be a little bit unethical if we just look beyond the most obvious things.

I think your examples are a little bit far fetched. Why can't things be measured in more or less ethical? I really think they can. It's like saying that all crimes are the same. And should get the same punishment.

Well. This is just how I see it.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Mr.B]

Still, I was just pointing out that what we call good ethical business. May be a little bit unethical if we just look beyond the most obvious things.

I think that a lot of service businesses can be very ethical. When I consider the services that I provide my clients and how these services are used, I don't see any ethical dilemmas. Sure, we could twist things around to try and make something that is good appear bad in a certain light, but where's the benefit in that?

@Andy Black nails it when he says:

You get Repeat business and Referrals by doing right by people who buy from you.

 

[Maxjohan]

I think that a lot of service businesses can be very ethical. When I consider the services that I provide my clients and how these services are used, I don't see any ethical dilemmas. Sure, we could twist things around to try and make something that is good appear bad in a certain light, but where's the benefit in that?

Yes. A home cleaning business, I can't come up with anything wrong with that. And if you do web design too. I think you are pretty good too. As long as you meet all promises and keep customers statisfied.

Yes. We could twist and turn things. But I don't see the benefit in it either. More than it may make us somehow self aware of certain things. To look on things in another or new perspective.

 

[RogueInnovation]

Reminds me of something Bruce Lee used to say:

“If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.”

Ha yeah, that is a great quote for ethics, I'll remember that one. Nice spot.

Be a bruce lee of ethics in your business

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[GuestUser112]

Ha yeah, that is a great quote for ethics, I'll remember that one. Nice spot.

Be a bruce lee of ethics in your business

I appreciate the lack of 'self-need' in your responses

 

[biophase]

Ethics is very relative and you can see from the responses here that something that one person thinks is ok is wrong to another person. I think it's a very tough thing for individuals to judge others on. Some people can sleep at night peddling false claims on their products and some can not. All I can do is associate myself with people with similar morals and beliefs as me. People's ethics and morals in business will show through their personal lives too, so you have to think about that when you are hanging out with your friends.

However, you can't really go around and say that this is bad and this is not in many cases. Especially if you begin to look outside the USA, you'll see that culturally, ethics and morals may be very different in other countries. Is the street vendor that sells you a $1 map for $20 wrong for asking $20? Or the person who kills an animal for food?

 

[GuestUser112]

Ethics is very relative and you can see from the responses here that something that one person thinks is ok is wrong to another person. I think it's a very tough thing for individuals to judge others on. ?

I agree that ethics are very relative and one cannot be the final judge of anybody else's actions.

However I strongly believe that (our standard of) ethical behavior comes from a certain degree of education - or rather, a level of understanding. So I wish to culture that level of understanding among my fellow men for I think it is in our best interest to try to better the world in which we live in - even if it just means having a discussion about ethics. There are many differences in many cultures throughout the world, and we cannot say for sure what is right or what is wrong... but if not for the Civil War, black people in America would still be slaves. That was a huge change in beliefs for many, many people. Some of them very prominent and wealthy members of society. So I think that, while tolerance is a good ideal, there comes a point where we should uphold the idea of ethical standards.

The argument that 'everybody has their own standards of ethics' is usually used by those who are doing something shady. Like companies that sell Asbestos to developing countries, or market cigarettes to children.

What it comes down to at the end of the day is: what kind of world do we want to live in? I for one certainly do not want to live in the Islamic State. See where I'm going with this? Einstein said that (I'm paraphrasing): The only way that evil can ever succeed is for good men to do nothing.

Extreme examples, I know, but I think the idea itself is worth discussing.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Developmental]

I find this interesting.....

 

[theag]

I find this interesting.....

Ethics and porn have nothing to do with each other. Might be a dirty business and it might make some people feel uneasy, but in my opinion its not unethical. Unethical in my opinion are false claims on products, not honoring handshake deals, stuff like that. Of course there are unethical people in the porn industry, maybe even more on average than in other industries, but you can find those people everywhere. Has nothing to do with their product.

You have to think beyond porn to really understand the opportunities in online porn...

 

[GuestUser112]

I find this interesting.....

Interestingly enough there was a little bit of a debate going on in the porn blog thread involving some of the same FL members that commented on this thread. If you see Theags comment above mine versus your own comment here you can get the picture of what has been going on. Seems like we're divided on the issue. Definitely makes for a funny picture.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[biophase]

What it comes down to at the end of the day is: what kind of world do we want to live in? I for one certainly do not want to live in the Islamic State. See where I'm going with this? Einstein said that (I'm paraphrasing): The only way that evil can ever succeed is for good men to do nothing.

I actually do not see where you are going with this. Are you saying that living in an Islamic State is evil? Not to make this a religious debate at all. But a vegan animal lover certainly would not want to live in a place with rampant hunting. The kind of world that a vegan wants to live in is not the same as what others want to live in. But neither of them is evil or good.

 

[HumbleBeginnings]

Any thoughts on leaving employer to start your own business? I guess it's basically competing with my former employer. What if I can provide better value?

 

[theag]

Any thoughts on leaving employer to start your own business? I guess it's basically competing with my former employer. What if I can provide better value?

Do it. And better do it good or they will crush you like the cockroach you are.

Dont expect a christmas card from them though.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[HumbleBeginnings]

Do it. And better do it good or they will crush you like the cockroach you are.

Dont expect a christmas card from them though.

Thanks for that right now I'm their bitch so I guess a cockroach is a step up. I'm as loyal to them as they are to me by the way. They are a very unethical company breaking laws left and right. I don't like the direction of the company so I'm going to leave. I'll be leaving after Christmas so I'll be collecting my bonus before I leave also.

 

[Digamma]

Thanks for that right now I'm their bitch so I guess a cockroach is a step up. I'm as loyal to them as they are to me by the way. They are a very unethical company breaking laws left and right. I don't like the direction of the company so I'm going to leave. I'll be leaving after Christmas so I'll be collecting my bonus before I leave also.

If they break laws, why don't you leave, report them, and swoop in to take their clients away? I think you would not be the first to do something like that. Or is it unethical?
God, this thread is making me paranoid.

 

[GuestUser112]

I actually do not see where you are going with this. Are you saying that living in an Islamic State is evil? Not to make this a religious debate at all. But a vegan animal lover certainly would not want to live in a place with rampant hunting. The kind of world that a vegan wants to live in is not the same as what others want to live in. But neither of them is evil or good.

A vegan animal lover refuses to accept the reality of nature which is that humans are omnivores. The type of world that a vegan would like to live in is a fantasy, and has no basis in reality. There is a difference between treating animals with respect and refusing to acknowledge that living creatures die. If vegans had their way it would be illegal for lions to hunt gazelles and ironically enough all the lions would die. And in the Islamic State it has been traditionally thought that it's OK to keep women as possessions, and to execute adulterers by stoning them to death - to a civilized person this is barbaric and there's really no other way to describe it - to pretend that it is otherwise is closing your mind to facts for the sake of being polite - a disease that is rampant in the Western world and I have absolutely no patience for it.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Marc B.]

Value creation, perpetuation is the backbone of this forum. Value is in the goods (emphasis on GOOD) and services that you provide to your customers. There is an unspoken measure of quality and satisfaction that we expect whenever we invest ourselves in another person, or their product. When you disappoint your customer, you don't only harm them with an inconvenience, but you violate the trust that they had for you. This is especially true for first-time customers, strangers who invest their hard-earned time and money into YOU.

I wouldn't sell my customer something that I wouldn't want to use. Your customers, their opinion of you, and the reputation that you earn will follow you for a lifetime. When you succeed, these are the people who keep your luxurious yacht afloat. When you succeed for the wrong reasons, your actions will catch up with you. Your support will disappear, and I have yet to see an instance like this where the captain didn't go down with his ship...

 

[Digamma]

A vegan animal lover refuses to accept the reality of nature which is that humans are omnivores. The type of world that a vegan would like to live in is a fantasy, and has no basis in reality. There is a difference between treating animals with respect and refusing to acknowledge that living creatures die. If vegans had their way it would be illegal for lions to hunt gazelles and ironically enough all the lions would die. And in the Islamic State it has been traditionally thought that it's OK to keep women as possessions, and to execute adulterers by stoning them to death - to a civilized person this is barbaric and there's really no other way to describe it - to pretend that it is otherwise is closing your mind to facts for the sake of being polite - a disease that is rampant in the Western world and I have absolutely no patience for it.

This is rhetoric. Ethics is by definition "a fantasy". It's a social construct. Society itself is not enforced by natural laws. Good and evil are completely subjective and in the end a laughable concept. Justice is a compromise that has no place outside our collective mind. The idea of "fairness" makes me chuckle.

Still, we accept all those things. Some do it by choice because the alternative would be chaos, some do it because they don't understand that it's actually a choice.

By the same argument you are making one could argue virtually ANYTHING.

Now, I'm not bashing your point of view - it's completely legitimate. In fact, I agree with most of it.
I'm just pointing out how it is, in fact, a point of view and, as such, subjective. I have no delusions of being "right" in a absolute sense, because that kind of "right" does not exist anywhere outside your own skull.

For example, you argue that vegans are blinded to reality, while you refuse to consider the porn business as "ethical". Your world in which sex is something you should not profit from, or in which porn is degrading, has no basis in reality - it comes from moral biases as old as those responsible for the Arab practices you condemn. The same moral biases, actually.

 

[davedev]

Honestly. This thread just makes me head hurt.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[HumbleBeginnings]

If they break laws, why don't you leave, report them, and swoop in to take their clients away? I think you would not be the first to do something like that. Or is it unethical?
God, this thread is making me paranoid.

Cockroaches don't swoop your thinking about vultures. That would definitely be unethical I think and it would also hurt some of their clients. I don't want to do it that way. I want to quit and then compete with them from the bottom up. I've seen firsthand through my long tenure at that company that the lying and bad choices have had a snowball effect. I'm thinking quitting and competing is not so bad. A bunch of their clients are already looking for other companies some have even hired their own employees to do what we do.

 

[Digamma]

Cockroaches don't swoop your thinking about vultures. That would definitely be unethical I think and it would also hurt some of their clients. I don't want to do it that way. I want to quit and then compete with them from the bottom up. I've seen firsthand through my long tenure at that company that the lying and bad choices have had a snowball effect. I'm thinking quitting and competing is not so bad. A bunch of their clients are already looking for other companies some have even hired their own employees to do what we do.

Well, whatever works for you. There is nothing wrong with leaving and opening up your own shop, I think. It's how business works.
Some might argue against poaching clients from the company, but honestly, I wouldn't care. Competitors try to steal clients. Again, that's the game.

 

[biophase]

A vegan animal lover refuses to accept the reality of nature which is that humans are omnivores. The type of world that a vegan would like to live in is a fantasy, and has no basis in reality. There is a difference between treating animals with respect and refusing to acknowledge that living creatures die. If vegans had their way it would be illegal for lions to hunt gazelles and ironically enough all the lions would die. And in the Islamic State it has been traditionally thought that it's OK to keep women as possessions, and to execute adulterers by stoning them to death - to a civilized person this is barbaric and there's really no other way to describe it - to pretend that it is otherwise is closing your mind to facts for the sake of being polite - a disease that is rampant in the Western world and I have absolutely no patience for it.

I don't think you realize how much of your post is simply your opinion. You are simply backing up your opinion with your thoughts. Everyone has their own opinions on right and wrong. This is why ethics is so relative.

I'm not a vegan, but what if I like to hunt and eat koala bears, you may think I it's right and others may think it's wrong.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[GuestUser112]

Whatever

 

[Rawr]

Ethics is very relative and you can see from the responses here that something that one person thinks is ok is wrong to another person. I think it's a very tough thing for individuals to judge others on. Some people can sleep at night peddling false claims on their products and some can not. All I can do is associate myself with people with similar morals and beliefs as me. People's ethics and morals in business will show through their personal lives too, so you have to think about that when you are hanging out with your friends.

However, you can't really go around and say that this is bad and this is not in many cases. Especially if you begin to look outside the USA, you'll see that culturally, ethics and morals may be very different in other countries. Is the street vendor that sells you a $1 map for $20 wrong for asking $20? Or the person who kills an animal for food?

scenario:


you do something questionable ethically, but not criminal, that let's say gets more people to a product. some of those people might say "well, that's not what was advertised' but then there are 100s who are pleased they bought it based on the exposure. Is it justified?

 

[Maxjohan]

This is rhetoric. Ethics is by definition "a fantasy". It's a social construct. Society itself is not enforced by natural laws. Good and evil are completely subjective and in the end a laughable concept. Justice is a compromise that has no place outside our collective mind. The idea of "fairness" makes me chuckle.

If there are laws and rules. Then there's something called ethics/morality. It's just not a fantasy then. If that's not true. Then there is nothing called crime and so on. We are emotional creators. Some more than others of course. (Talking about psychopaths here.) Just because you can't see that it's anything wrong with stoning people to death. Doesn't make it right in another world which are more advanced. Like the Western world. In Africa they live by the quran which are laws made in the 600s after christ. Is there any wonder they conduct those laws? When they are so old. Ever listen to arabic music? Much different than the western pop, rock and R&B.

And if somebody hit you in the face so you lost a few teeth. I bet you would call the cops and go all moral bunkers. Right? Or is that just a fantasy? That you got hurt?

I just F*cking hate your view. With a passion. Of course they are not natural laws. But what are? Do they have to be natural? Maybe not too natural for you then?

We are more than just monkeys.

Edit: What about soldiers with post traumatic stress disorder? Just a fairy tale? Because there is nothing right or wrong, good or evil that effect us as humans with good or bad.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Digamma]

If there are laws and rules. Then there's something called ethics/morality. It's just not a fantasy then. If that's not true. Then there is nothing called crime and so on. We are emotional creators. Some more than others of course. (Talking about psychopaths here.) Just because you can't see that it's anything wrong with stoning people to death. Doesn't make it right in another world which are more advanced. Like the Western world. In Africa they live by the quran which are laws made in the 600s after christ. Is there any wonder they conduct those laws? When they are so old. Ever listen to arabic music? Much different than the western pop, rock and R&B.

And if somebody hit you in the face so you lost a few teeth. I bet you would call the cops and go all moral bunkers. Right? Or is that just a fantasy? That you got hurt?

I just F*cking hate your view. With a passion. Of course they are not natural laws. But what are? Do they have to be natural? Maybe not too natural for you then?

We are more than just monkeys.

Edit: What about soldiers with post traumatic stress disorder? Just a fairy tale? Because there is nothing right or wrong, good or evil that effect us as humans with good or bad.

I'm sorry, do you have brain damage?
You say you "hate my view", then you agree with it in the same sentence ("of course they are not natural laws").
I never said I disown society or that I want chaos. Quite the opposite, I come from a place where corruption reigns and nobody hates social injustice more than me.
I said that every rule we have exists only inside of society, and are not hard truth, so maybe people like you should stop walking around like you have the F*cking truth about the Universe held in the palm of your hand. Then again, bigots don't do that, they just "hate views with a passion" because they are Right™ and anything that threatens their convictions is Just Wrong™.

Now, let's get back in topic.

 

[Maxjohan]

I'm sorry, do you have brain damage?
You say you "hate my view", then you agree with it in the same sentence ("of course they are not natural laws").
I never said I disown society or that I want chaos. Quite the opposite, I come from a place where corruption reigns and nobody hates social injustice more than me.
I said that every rule we have exists only inside of society, and are not hard truth, so maybe people like you should stop walking around like you have the F*cking truth about the Universe held in the palm of your hand. Then again, bigots don't do that, they just "hate views with a passion" because they are Right™ and anything that threatens their convictions is Just Wrong™.

Now, let's get back in topic.

Great response. I made a lot of questions for you. You respond to nothing. I don't even know what you mean about natural. Like I see that. Is like dog eat dog. I don't know what the F*ck you mean. Because you just read some bullshit somewhere that suites your view. And then you spread the shit all over the place. So now. We are done.

And yes. I think your view is ignorrant as shit. Because I believe in the greater good of society. That we together can get somewhere. While you just see it as some fairy tales laughable things that we can't work on together to better society.

Do you believe in long-term relationships too? Or is that just about sex? That's just the same. Just as F*cking stupid. Stupidest reply I've ever gotten and most ignorrant too.

Of course I gonna stand up for what I believe in and what is dear to me. Morality/Ethics.

By the way. Do they have to be natural to count? Sounds logical to me.

Now.

Let's get back on topic.

Good and evil are completely subjective and in the end a laughable concept. Justice is a compromise that has no place outside our collective mind. The idea of "fairness" makes me chuckle.