Ryan Deiss - Funnel blueprint

[RogueInnovation]

do you really think Coke has never done anything unethical in it's 100+ year history?

Be careful of using examples of bs as permission though.

Mike tyson bit off a guys ear, a guy kicked bruce lee in the back... Yes there is corruption at high levels but it is not validation of it but in fact the opposite, a weed we need to pull.


I draw the line of ethics at predictable/reliable profit for the customer niche (I don't sell outside that niche, like I won't sell a guy a skirt to wear to his date that looks like a tshirt).
A customer shouldn't be making a loss on their purchase.
Cuz I believe in creating a profitable economy.
When you force a dog eat dog the bear starts to get angry and sink ships.

Or in other words, you poison your network of support by validating corruption.

 

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[csalvato]

you may not be able to build a business from nothing , but you can perfectly gain some side money online that can fund a business/brand.

Go read some AMA´s from this forum.

It was a joke. I have several small businesses where I created "something" (revenue streams) from "nothing" (ideas, information, intangible web traffic). Shame my streams aren't enough to support me at the moment though.

Re: Everything Else
When I think of good marketing, I think of it this way:

If my customer WERE able to process all of the information about my product, and all of the terms, and did their due diligence...would they be happy with their purchase? Would it be the best thing for them? Would their grandmother approve? Would MY grandmother approve?

If the answer is Yes, its ethical and sustainable.

If the answer is NO, then you're just a hustler, running from one hustle to the next.

Bad marketers and salespeople make their customers feel "sold to". No one likes to be sold to. They like to buy and decide. They like to spend, and feel good about their purchases (ever hear of retail therapy?)

They don't like to check their credit card statement (something that most people don't even LOOK AT) and see that they have been charged for months of a pill they didn't even want to begin with.

The problem with most IM offers and offerers is that they are doing a whole lot of selling to; and people aren't doing a whole lot of buying.

 

[Vagabond 007]

My complete thought wasn't debating the existence of sales processes, but more specific as to these exact type of tactics and whether or not they are deployed by any household brands. And the answer is… I haven't found any yet.

Best Buy.

I've heard multiple times (still doesn't mean it's 100% accurate, I know) they sell most of their items at cost. They make most of their money on warranty upgrades and geek squad stuff.

If that is the case, then let's use a $20 purchase at Best Buy as an example.

Lead Magnets - Circulars letting you know about deals.
Tripwire - Anything from a $10 CD to other items at cost.
Core Offer - I'm sure they have some items in their store they make money on that we could put here
Profit Maximizers - Warranties and small items at cash register
Return Path - Weekly emails, award points which give gift certificates when you reach a certain amount of points

Not every business practice that generates profit is worth emulating.

True. But they are still worth learning from.

But please do me and the forum a favor, leave the magic wands at home.

We won't be advocating them here, or will we be advocating those who sell them.

Be the wizard but beware of the wizard.

 

[Vigilante]

Best Buy does not sell most of their items at cost.

 

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[splok]

Be careful of using examples of bs as permission though.

I wasn't saying that these things were ok. Vig asked repeatedly for examples of top-end companies doing similarly shady things, and I gave some.

 

[csalvato]

I've heard multiple times (still doesn't mean it's 100% accurate, I know) they sell most of their items at cost. They make most of their money on warranty upgrades and geek squad stuff.

Best Buy does not sell most of their items at cost.

Vig got it right. I used to work at Best Buy a few years back in the Geek Squad.

Some products have very slim margins. Things like computers and all Apple products.

The Dynex stuff they sell is their own brand, though. Their margins on these products are TREMENDOUS. They normally push the Dynex stuff over the name brand stuff, saying that it's all made in the same supply chain, but they have lesser QC to justify lower costs.

As a result, they make a convincing argument that you can buy Dynex (which is same quality as Sony or Samsung) and make up for the lack of QC/confidence by buying their support plan (which has a HUGE margin).

Also, things like cables they make a HUGE margin on, even the name brand stuff.

For some of their products, you may be able to look at it as tripwire/lead magnet....but that's definitely not their core business model.

 

[AndrewNC]

Andrew brought up that inside this funnel currently it's possible your credit card is being billed in a weird way. I don't know if that's true that's why I kept asking "what is unethical about this" and that answered my question. I asked a simple question for clarification.

*just to make clear - that's what I heard, I didn't see it myself - so it may or may not be the case. It appears Jason posted some stuff to show exactly what happens. I haven't had the time to go through those.

 

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[s168]

Unethical:
I feel MJ nailed it

But my add is that ethics are distorted when you assume the customers end goal is to pay you as much money as possible, involve as many friends as possible, and talk about you as hyper as possible without considering what they actually want.

Its called brushing over the facts.

You can see it here as Vig illustrates facts of the models, looks at it and remains stoic.
He is waiting for a value proposition, but is hit with air and flailing arms.

The problem is that this is puppeted as credibility.
And figures are thrown around after the fact to refute experts' criticisms.

It attempts to usurp critical components to authority.


When we usurp the principles of credible business we are on the slope towards unethical action, and even with naive intent will start "making mistakes".
Like "oh I misworded that, and now its percieved as fraud".

The fact is, you don't have to be naive to unethical stuff sprouting in your business model, just remove the smoke and mirrors.


If you are using unsafe practice, that uses smoke and mirrors to create credibility, you are not technically fraudulent, but do customers care about technicality or do they care about whether they feel they are getting screwed or not?

If you are firefighting and dousing flames with more hype, more smoke and mirrors, all you are doing is being territorial and cordoning of the smart from the foolish to herd the foolish against their later gained good judgement into a circle of purchases thats primary purpose is not to provide results but POPULARITY. As if popularity improves the product results (no).


If you are not focused on the results for your customers, then amidst all this popularity, who is enhancing their results? While you are distracted hyping their is only stagnation in your model and an enhancing confirmation bias forming about the effectiveness of what you are doing.
- See how many showed up! We are boss!
- Wow we got 30m! How booooss!
- Omg a few flame wars, pssht these silly people

You can't recall success based off of honest indicators cuz you don't have them
- We gave x business the model, and this was how it worked for him and the benefits
- We changed y because we found that z businesses function better with it
- We have 30 000 successful launches (not hype, not out of context)

You are ignoring the utility... Of honesty. And all because the pressure of delivery on promises is percieved as "their problem"

THEIR PROBLEM models are not ethical, they are also a slippery slope that leads to mistakes that will break into fraud if your business goes under stress.
If you build a business that way its eventually going to snap.


I've spent years focusing on results for clients, so it is clear to me, when others don't.
We can all laugh and joke and blow it off, but thats stupid.
Business isn't a joke, and neither is properly implementing this stuff to get results.
You'd know that if you spent time building results not just fapping over money in ideas.


And btw, these are just IDEAS, they are not confirmed to be used by the best companies in the same spirit.
You insisting they are is bs because you DON'T KNOW and don't spend time consulting with them or studying them.
You are playing pin the tail on the donkey and then selling the crossword solution you came up with for an inordinant amount of cash that isnt at all justified as a business consultancy cost for a startup.

What does that make you then?
You are unaware of the end results of your business, giving people debt, they won't pay off after applying the product.

You have no evidence to suggest the client will even break even on the cost.
You place all the blame on them and say "if you were a marketting genius then it would work".
It isn't about this ego sidestep bs, its about you not even getting people to a minimum value, with the excuse of arguing about the intangible (being "wildly" successful)


So YES its not ethical, legitimised or lacking exploitation of its users.
Because you are the exception to the rule.
Not a provider of genuine support.

I see no reason why anyone should support the model until it shapes up and has a use outside of excessively overpriced infotainment

Wow, is it me or was that a brain ache of a read? I'm having trouble digesting that into simple language that my brain can register and understand...!

 

[s168]

This thread seems to have got a life of its own all of a sudden.

I haven't been through the whole Survival Life sales funnel, but regarding the question of ethics I find it a very simple matter of "is what you're up-selling/down-selling/cross-selling actually in the best interests of the customer or not?" In other words, are you doing it to make money for yourself first or are you doing it because you genuinely want to provide them something that adds value to their lives and helps them in some way first?

When someone is doing something that takes advantage of social compliance or anticipated standard human behaviour, then that to me is deception and misleading. If I see an "add to cart" button, guess F*ckin what, I expect to see a cart somewhere. I don't expect to get billed. When I go to the supermarket and add a tin of food to my cart, I'm not billed for placing it in there! I'm always given the chance to remove it at any time up to the point of me taking out my card to pay for my shopping.

Dissecting and debating what is technically ethical on the basis of whatever rationale you can come up with is BS. The point is so damn obvious that to debate and discuss it is eyebrow raising in itself!

 

[limitup]

You guys are all right on. I'm not going to name names, but these guys are mostly crooks. Some of them literally convicted felons. Some with FTC judgements, etc. etc.

Here's a real simple example of how they lie to you right from the very start...

This is a landing page for Frank Kern's latest promotion:

http://2u2e2xd2.megaph.com/?inf_con...1f32ae37592ab22c1618f7ea66d534ea938b2567288dc

Now Frank is a sharp guy, and obviously makes a lot of money, but his entire "funnel" starts with a lie. The form says "Where should I send this special 45-minute video?"

It's all a lie just to get your email address. The video doesn't get sent to you - it's on the next page after you enter your email only because you thought he was going to send it to your email.

I know this may be a "small" thing but it's premeditated deception from the very first interaction with the customer. And from this point on it's all NLP, social engineering, and "mass control" to squeeze as much money out of you as possible. These guys are good marketers, but ethical they are not.

That's why lots of them create what appear to be "real" businesses on the side, so they have something to point to and tell their friends and family about, because they'd never want to tell people how they really make most of their money scamming desperate people.

Most of them have tried to start "real" business offline and all but one that I know of has failed miserably. Frank Kern "retired" from teaching Internet marketing and selling "trainings" a handful of years ago and swore he'd never be back. Started an offline company (with a convicted felon) that bombed miserably and lost a shitload of money, so now he's back doing what he does best ...

Crazy to think I used to idolize these guys. Now they just make me sick ...

 

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[EnglandBorn]

What do you think the reason is they fail at offline business?

You guys are all right on. I'm not going to name names, but these guys are mostly crooks. Some of them literally convicted felons. Some with FTC judgements, etc. etc.

Here's a real simple example of how they lie to you right from the very start...

This is a landing page for Frank Kern's latest promotion:

http://2u2e2xd2.megaph.com/?inf_con...1f32ae37592ab22c1618f7ea66d534ea938b2567288dc

Now Frank is a sharp guy, and obviously makes a lot of money, but his entire "funnel" starts with a lie. The form says "Where should I send this special 45-minute video?"

It's all a lie just to get your email address. The video doesn't get sent to you - it's on the next page after you enter your email only because you thought he was going to send it to your email.

I know this may be a "small" thing but it's premeditated deception from the very first interaction with the customer. And from this point on it's all NLP, social engineering, and "mass control" to squeeze as much money out of you as possible. These guys are good marketers, but ethical they are not.

That's why lots of them create what appear to be "real" businesses on the side, so they have something to point to and tell their friends and family about, because they'd never want to tell people how they really make most of their money scamming desperate people.

Most of them have tried to start "real" business offline and all but one that I know of has failed miserably. Frank Kern "retired" from teaching Internet marketing and selling "trainings" a handful of years ago and swore he'd never be back. Started an offline company (with a convicted felon) that bombed miserably and lost a shitload of money, so now he's back doing what he does best ...

Crazy to think I used to idolize these guys. Now they just make me sick ...

 

[Martinv678]

After downloading one of the SWF field that @JasonR uploaded I can't believe that there are arguments of this not being unethical. The video states that you need to buy their extra "tripwire" because if not someone in your family could get raped and you need to protect them (I can't believe they even said raped in a sales pitch). It's kinda like me going into a home store to buy a table and someone saying.. You need a knife because you could get mugged walking out the door. I'm all up for making a "funnel" if, as already stated, it provides a service or product that will improve someones life or fill a need. I'd rather make £10k a month doing the right thing than making "1m" (if they even make that) dropping awful sales techniques and "wallet rapes" all over my site. Survival is more of a big deal in the US rather than the UK for me comment on the market but I can't believe this is working and people are falling for what it pretty much a trap. I'm not sure what the actual "tripwire" product you receive is like but I assume it's not worth the amount asked for.

Going back to the amount "they make" through these sites. It's sounds like made up figures, people who generally earn a lot do not like to reveal to much on how much their businesses is currently making.

 

[s168]

What do you think the reason is they fail at offline business?

Maybe it's because they've never ran a proper business before? You know, one that is based on actually providing a service or product that people want and value without massively overcharging?

After downloading one of the SWF field that @JasonR uploaded I can't believe that there are arguments of this not being unethical. The video states that you need to buy their extra "tripwire" because if not someone in your family could get raped and you need to protect them (I can't believe they even said raped in a sales pitch). It's kinda like me going into a home store to buy a table and someone saying.. You need a knife because you could get mugged walking out the door. I'm all up for making a "funnel" if, as already stated, it provides a service or product that will improve someones life or fill a need. I'd rather make £10k a month doing the right thing than making "1m" (if they even make that) dropping awful sales techniques and "wallet rapes" all over my site. Survival is more of a big deal in the US rather than the UK for me comment on the market but I can't believe this is working and people are falling for what it pretty much a trap. I'm not sure what the actual "tripwire" product you receive is like but I assume it's not worth the amount asked for.

Going back to the amount "they make" through these sites. It's sounds like made up figures, people who generally earn a lot do not like to reveal to much on how much their businesses is currently making.

I know of one well known IMer in the UK. He sold about $200k worth on a Clickbank info-product launch a few years ago. Lasted maybe a week at best and that was the end of it. Sounds like a lot doesn't it, especially when 90% of that money came from the first day!

BUT.... deduct about a 30% chargeback for refunds, and you're left with $140k. Deduct 50% to pay your JVs who are mass spamming, error sorry, 'mailing' out this special offer must-buy product to their lists, and you have $70k. Deduct development costs and overheads (such as currency conversion fees, accountancy, etc) of $20k and you have $50k. Now remove a bit for taxes, and you get $40k... that's about £24k net in the UK.

The whole process from concept to sales tail off is about 6-8 months. They boast about what they are "making" when they state just revenue. They never tell you how many hours they've put in and busted their guts to get the product out there, and how only a fraction of that is real net profit for them.

Now you know why they churn products after products, often rehashed shit, and sell seminars after seminars. If their one business or product or online marketing strategy is so good, they wouldn't bother selling courses after courses. They'd be quietly killing it online and living in Monaco.

 

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[MattCour]

@Kung Fu Steve maybe you could talk about your experience working with these guys as consultants.

How has it impacted your business? Do you work with Digital Marketer, or someone else?

This seems to be a really polarizing thread/topic so I'd love to hear both sides of the argument. I've watched the Funnel Blueprint video and was considering buying it...

 

[MJ DeMarco]

but his entire "funnel" starts with a lie.

The greatest irony of this is the headline. It reads:

Here's Exactly How To Create Authority, Establish Trust, Build Desire...

So to establish trust, start with a lie. Got it. (But wait, we're marketing! So we can do that! Right??)

Crazy to think I used to idolize these guys.

Sadly most folks will justify the means for the ends. Show 'em a little green and all critical thinking goes out the window.

 

[RogueInnovation]

Win the battle lose the war.

I think that emotional deception in this manner totally kills LCV. And distracts from the need to improve their product.

 

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[MisterBHZ]

Sorry, but I've never heard of any of these guys mentioned.

 

[snacks]

Great discussion and hopefully teaches others to fully explore anything before handing over hard cash.
Just to clarify again, the purpose of starting this thread wasn't in support of Ryan Deiss, or his program. It was merely from an educational standpoint for some who may be curious as to what an on-line funnel was. Either for, or against this program, we can't deny that the process is well explained. Hopefully most on this board would have the common sense to dig deep and decide if this company and its practices are indeed ethical before deciding on any commitment. He even states that some of these tactics are extreme and you may not want to employ some methods used in the examples. Doesn't mean an ethical business couldn't use a platform similar to this to get results in an honest way and many do.
As others have stated, there is nothing revolutionary here and this funnel, or variations of it are used in just about any business.
In the corporate sales world, they are often as complex as this and I have used many over the years with great (ethical) end results.

Enjoying reading others thoughts on this subject - Not the attacks so much though

I'm considering hiring them to build my funnel, and this is my main concern. my goal is to build a real brand, using the online stuff to support our national retail roll-out. I need to be sure not to do anything to hurt our brand value, and get spanked in the marketplace. I believe they can play by my rules, and build a funnel to be proud of...but I need to be sure. Can't have this come back to bite me. I'd rather do $0 online.

 

[snacks]

@Kung Fu Steve maybe you could talk about your experience working with these guys as consultants.

How has it impacted your business? Do you work with Digital Marketer, or someone else?

This seems to be a really polarizing thread/topic so I'd love to hear both sides of the argument. I've watched the Funnel Blueprint video and was considering buying it...

I'm new here, but I'll chime in because I'd LOVE to hear this. I'm on the verge of hiring these guys and want all the info I can get. I know they can't make me do anything I'm not comfortable with...BUT, if everything they suggest is unethical, then they can't possibly provide any value to me. I'd veto everything, and end up with a big fat zero to show for my investment

 

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[LightHouse]

I'm new here, but I'll chime in because I'd LOVE to hear this. I'm on the verge of hiring these guys and want all the info I can get. I know they can't make me do anything I'm not comfortable with...BUT, if everything they suggest is unethical, then they can't possibly provide any value to me. I'd veto everything, and end up with a big fat zero to show for my investment

Email kungfusteve he is travelling around the state's at the moment, I'm sure he could jump a call with you about it

 

[snacks]

Email kungfusteve he is travelling around the state's at the moment, I'm sure he could jump a call with you about it

Thanks!

not sure how to get in touch with him...I looked at his profile page, but no direct contact info...is there a way to PM through these forums? Or something equivalent?

 

[MattCour]

Thanks!

not sure how to get in touch with him...I looked at his profile page, but no direct contact info...is there a way to PM through these forums? Or something equivalent?

I messaged Kung fu Steve directly and he responded a day or two later with positive feedback. Go to the Inbox and create a message. I know @JasonR is doing awesome right now and he's using a type of sales funnel. I'm positive he's not doing anything unethical.

Ryan Deiss/ DM give away so much awesome free content, you could execute just on that info alone.

 

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[snacks]

I messaged Kung fu Steve directly and he responded a day or two later with positive feedback. Go to the Inbox and create a message. I know @JasonR is doing awesome right now and he's using a type of sales funnel. I'm positive he's not doing anything unethical.

Ryan Deiss/ DM give away so much awesome free content, you could execute just on that info alone.

Thanks! I'm happy to pay to have those guys execute it better, stronger, faster. that's the appeal to me, I don't want to try to be an expert in this. While I may be able to get there, it would take too long, and cost me more along the way than paying the right guys.

Hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with Steve, and maybe some other clients of theirs. I just want to be sure that they'll be able to execute a successful plan while meeting my standard of ethics. If the only trick in their arsenal is to execute the kind of practices I heard about in this thread, that's not a good thing.

However, I've purchased some of their informational products, and, from what I remember, the process was clean and above board. Anybody else out there worked with these guys that can provide some insight?

thanks
sean

 

[Vigilante]

I'm new here, but I'll chime in because I'd LOVE to hear this. I'm on the verge of hiring these guys and want all the info I can get. I know they can't make me do anything I'm not comfortable with...BUT, if everything they suggest is unethical, then they can't possibly provide any value to me. I'd veto everything, and end up with a big fat zero to show for my investment

You probably found this forum on a google search hit for this subject. However, realize this forum is not going to be a great resource for you on whether or not you should do business with them. Do your own due diligence. The opinions here are varied, but not authoritative on them. Consider this thread kind of like a discussion amongst friends that you are able to eavesdrop on. Nobody here knows you well enough to recommend a course of action for you. If you PM someone from the forum who is bullish on them, don't be surprised if you get a cheerleader response. However, realize that the forum in no way endorses them, nor is any of the information contained within these pages intended to be advice on whether or not any individual or company is reputable.

If you read through this whole thread, and you still are considering doing business with them... then good luck to you. Please read this thread : https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/i-am-not-responsible.20271/

 

[snacks]

shucks, my plan was to pay them lots f money, get swindled, and then sue everybody in sight. That was my "fast lane". now, I guess I need to reconsider

just kidding, of course. I'm a big boy, and just wanted to get an idea if these guys try to "impose" unsavory tactics on their clients, or will work within the ethical guidelines I set for them. And, if working within my guidelines might impair their ability to successfully deliver results for me and my company.

I'm considering hiring them to do a very specific job (to my standards, not theirs) and not to run my business for me or make ethical decisions.

I get what you guys are saying...I guess my belief is that these guys have the ability to win clean or win dirty. I've done some business with them, buying their out of the box info products, and everything has been clean so far. Now that I'm thinking about hiring them, I'm doing my due diligence.

And, I guess you're saying that if they built a "dirty" funnel for somebody else, then those simply aren't the kind of people you'd ever want to do business with? I guess I get that...not sure how I feel about that, but I do understand where you're coming from.

Along those lines, do you guys know of other companies that will do the same kind of thing (build a funnel from top to bottom, and execute it), that also have a track record of success similar to what these guys have, that maybe operate on a higher standard?

thanks
sean

 

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[LightHouse]

You probably found this forum on a google search hit for this subject. However, realize this forum is not going to be a great resource for you on whether or not you should do business with them. Do your own due diligence. The opinions here are varied, but not authoritative on them. Consider this thread kind of like a discussion amongst friends that you are able to eavesdrop on. Nobody here knows you well enough to recommend a course of action for you. If you PM someone from the forum who is bullish on them, don't be surprised if you get a cheerleader response. However, realize that the forum in no way endorses them, nor is any of the information contained within these pages intended to be advice on whether or not any individual or company is reputable.

If you read through this whole thread, and you still are considering doing business with them... then good luck to you. Please read this thread : https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/i-am-not-responsible.20271/

Wow Vig this sounds borderline offensive. The underlying opinion injection here is killer. I dont think Steve advocates swindling anyone, you can learn something from folks but have a higher standard of ethics in your own business. Also it sounds like Snacks is doing just that, due diligence.

I get dropping the "we are not responsible" but as a mod i would hold you to a higher standard of neutrality since you also have never directly done business with them and do not know the full story. I also have not and could not say one way or another, but i wouldn't impede on someone doing due diligence that is trying to find info and wanting to talk to fellow forum members without underlying jabs and assumptions.

 

[z6Evolved]

Any time I hear the names of these "gurus" come up in conversation, I cringe a little. Maybe it comes from working in that industry for so long.

You can google any of their names + "lawsuit" and see all sorts of interesting things - fun game to play is count how many times each name hits for links to fbi or ftc investigations.

I'm just going to leave this here, used to be a pretty fun read back in the day. IDK if he still updates, but it's worth a look: http://saltydroid.info/

eta: found the post I was looking for - http://saltydroid.info/the-internet-marketing-syndicate/

 

[Scott W]

You guys be the judge. When I went through their funnel I recorded everything.

Mods - if this isn't ok, feel free to remove the links - but it's all free info if you spend some time going through it.

I spent $180 and about an hour of my time going through this. Give me a rep if it helps you.

Landing Page
https://www.dropbox.com/s/spi0fhssjx9z8je/Knife Funnel Start.jpg

Funnel after you enter your CC Info:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1s1r970obp9iuu/2014-01-22_2237.swf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ajksxoj2v89s89/2014-01-22_2243.swf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b4cbuinfszm7530/2014-01-22_2248.swf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t399jng0ne92439/2014-01-22_2254.swf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mwbhamutmmw0bfk/2014-01-22_2259.swf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/id2kjfj1kburca1/2014-01-22_2302.swf

Very Simple Diagram of it (You can see its out there for public consumption)
Keep in mind, they have a system of downsells as well, so it can get quite complex.

For example, if you say no to LL, they have a free trial of it (or at least used to)
http://www.gliffy.com/publish/5928276/

I really appreciate all this and the time you spent. Could you possibly re post the gliffy link or send it to me. I checked it out before though it's not working. Thank you again. I appreciate it.

 

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