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Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

Formless

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I think the answer lies in two questions:

1) What are my goals/What do I want to be? ('I want to Entrepreneur and have lots of moneys' doesn't cut it, define it so that a stupid person, or even I could understand it.)

2) How do I want to get there


There's a lot of 'do as I say, not as I made my millions' advice, you gotta be careful to stick that through a filter. Most advice given here is valid. So answer your question by defining your goals better.
 
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Dimski

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Tell that to Elon Musk.

In all seriousness, do what you're drawn to. Don't force yourself to learn code if you hate computers or find code boring. However, if you can't write for shit, then your copy won't be any better than your code. Search and search for that one thing that makes you go "AHA!", then put in the time for it.

Personally, I'm not the worst in writing, but I'm way more interested in software engineering. The possibilities are endless. I think this whole thread should be titled "CODING isn't the only way to go", because then it would be the absolute truth. All I'm saying here is to each their own.
 

Wuz

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i wrote once in this forum that you should learn code.

Well, learn html basics then get out.

With html i could edit the word press website and some other things. The rest could be easily found in templates.

Go work on skills that really matter in business..

I found out that i was spending my time in things that will only lead to wasting of my time and frustrations in the future.

Copywriting is more accesible to anyone, since it is not about creativity but more about taking what works and write, and this is a matter of studying the best sales letters.


Think critically about whether or not you re learning code to your advantage or only to tell yourself that you re taking action.
 

Dimski

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i wrote once in this forum that you should learn code.

Well, learn html basics then get out.

With html i could edit the word press website and some other things. The rest could be easily found in templates.

Go work on skills that really matter in business..

I found out that i was spending my time in things that will only lead to wasting of my time and frustrations in the future.

Copywriting is more accesible to anyone, since it is not about creativity but more about taking what works and write, and this is a matter of studying the best sales letters.


Think critically about whether or not you re learning code to your advantage or only to tell yourself that you re taking action.
It really depends on your goals. If you're coding for the wrong reasons, it's the same as writing copy for the wrong reasons. It'll amount to nothing. If you code thinking only of yourself and how it's going to make you money and how you'll buy so many things and this and that, you'll end up broke, either on the Sidewalk or Slowlane, nearly wanting to kill yourself.

But it's the same with every single thing you can think of. If you're a young guy/gal coding because you think you can be the best coder in the world and when you make your products and/or maybe make a business out of it, you want to BE that CTO, just like so many of the successful programmers that have inspired many. Don't tell THAT person that learning to code is stupid. Tell that person "way to go" or get the hell out of their way - because they're on a F*cking mission.

You can learn to code, you can learn to build things, you can learn to sell, you can learn to lie, you can learn to make people believe in you, you can learn to... and the list never ends. It all depends on YOU. You. You. You're the secret ingredient. You're the game changer. Not what you do, but how and why you do it and how it affects others. Is it something of value that people are going to love? Anyway, that's my two cents.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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16 pages of debate... gotta be some GOLD in there!
 

AndrewNC

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Spend the 1000 hours learning to market and write copy, and you can use that skill for the life of the app, plus the life of the next app, and other peoples apps AND it makes you money.

Learn how to market + finding other peoples apps which are good, but aren't selling because the person cant code = opportunity????
 

Kyle Tully

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Learn how to market + finding other peoples apps which are good, but aren't selling because the person cant code = opportunity????

Finding under-utilised assets, gaining ownership/control, and improving/leveraging/flipping is a model that has been around for hundreds of years in every market you can think of... just talking online I know people who do this with youtube channels, facebook pages, websites, domains, info products... I'm sure there are people doing it in the app space too.
 
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Spacecake

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Wow, what a battle! It makes me want to master both. lol

I joined this forum after reading the book, and decided to leave school, get a job (yeah) WHILE building a fastlane. I'm still aware of the advice given on following your passions versus solving needs. What if my passion has always been in computers but I studied accounting in school to get a "good" job? What if I quit the accounting and followed my passion in coding, will that be a bad idea?

Another thing is I care about people. I don't think I will write copies if I know the products are just scams. If the products are not genuinely helping people should I be the one to help promote them? I don't think I will want do that. So, do I learn how to write copies and keep filtering all the opportunities searching for the FEW that will genuinely help people? Majority of the stuff which captivate the masses are actually fast food in organic meal packaging. Just hope your loved ones don't go for these "organic meal".

I am still very new to coding and stuff, and I don't know if I will face similar issues in this area. But, one thing I know is this, coding is a way forward for third world countries, one of which I am originally from. I have seen the needs of these people. I believe coding fulfills all but one of the commandments of CENTS in most of these countries. The only problem is time, and by this I don't mean working for time as in a job, but the time needed to learn coding. Maybe I'll just make that sacrifice.
 
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Neeraj

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Love ya healthstatus but I disagree,

I'm learning how to code as we speak. Have been for a while now. I love learning this just as much as I enjoy learning about all other aspects of business. Instead of saying that learning something you want to learn is "stupid", perhaps you should say that it wasn't beneficial to YOU. To tell anyone that learning anything is stupid is in fact, stupid, and I know you're smarter than that.

I also enjoy learning how to cook, speak different languages, sew, and a million other things. I'm not stupid I'm enlightened and interested.



All the best,

Cory

Hi Cory,

I think what healthstatus means is that, by learning to code as a means to an end, might be a bad idea. I'm currently contemplating an idea for an app and have spent more than a couple hours learning to code. While I still think its of paramount importance to "learn" this skill to be able to talk to other coders, make your own rough prototype, etc., I'm now convinced that the task of learning to code to be able to add any real, concrete value to your app / website will take up too much time and effort and one is better off outsourcing the task.
However, its still a personal choice, I suppose. What do you think? Do you think a "noob" can come out of nowhere and end up coding an above average product with limited time? Say 2 months at the max? Would love to hear your input.

Regards,
Neeraj
 

Kyle Tully

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I started out as a programmer and later (after I couldn't get any traction with my development-based business) learned sales, marketing, and copywriting.

Believe me that is the SLOW way to go.

Probably cost me 3-5 years.

If I had to start over I would focus on marketing.

Programming is a $10-100 per hour job. Marketing is a $1000+ per hour job.

In the time it takes you to learn how to code even the most basic program, you could have gone out and got a minimum wage job to save up and pay a developer from eastern europe (with 10 years experience) who will make a better program faster and with less bugs than you ever could.
 
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Kyle Tully

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Here's an email I wrote to my list just over 4 years ago:

Are you an expert at the wrong thing?

In the first corporate job I ever had, I experienced a
profound (and unlikely) entrepreneurial "ah-ha" moment.

Actually, it was more like one of those Homer Simpson
"Doh!" moments.

It was the year 2000. The peak of the dot com bubble.

After the failure of my first consulting business -- and
the realization that trying to figure everything out on
my own was a slow and painful path to success -- I took
a job at a booming web development company here in Sydney.

Now, at this point you should know I was a big geek...

I could hand-code complex websites in HTML... program in
3 or 4 different languages... zip around a graphic design
program with the speed (if not the flair) of the pro's
on the floor below.

I knew everything on the technical side of the business.

And you know what? Those "geek" skills cost me a fortune and
were a major reason for the failure of my business.

I realized this when my boss hired an outside consultant
to oversee an internal software project...

This guy needed my help to get his email working. He
didn't understand anything more than the absolute basics
of the technology. And he spent more time at lunch with
clients than trying to "up" his technical skills.

But he knew the business side of the business.

He understood the big picture of how the software fit in.
He could talk about it to "normal" non-tech people. He
knew who to go to for any technical issues.

And while I caught the bus to work on my $50k salary...

He drove a Ferrari and would clear $150k from the deal.

(This was 1 of 4 deals he had going at the time.)

That's when it suddenly hit me:

I'd wasted years mastering the technology when it was
the people and business skills that mattered.

You don't need to be an expert at the little things.

You just need to understand the big picture, be able to
talk to people about it in language they understand,
and know how to outsource the little details.
 

Neeraj

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Learn to market and write copy:
Have an idea for an app.
Tell the world about it by advertising for a developer.
Watch helplessly as somebody steals your idea, creates a fantastic app & makes a mint from it.
or spend months discussing your app with a developer who's native language isn't the same as yours & eventually give up as you couldn't communicate effectively or discover the developer couldn't really do the job.
or eventually find a great developer & pay them a big chunk of cash (& ongoing royalties or fees if the app ever takes off).
Discover no-one else has that appreciation for your app that you do & kiss goodbye to the aforementioned big chunk of cash.
or find a developer who decides your idea is actually pretty good & develops a similar & better app for him/herself.
or find a developer who decides to put a virus or other nasty in your app to teach you a lesson because you didn't pay them enough & work at McDonalds the rest of your life as your reputation is shot & you now have huge legal fees to pay.

Hasn't Steve raised legitimate concerns here? I'm just starting out and this thread has been absolutely amazing. From what I've gathered so far, for someone who is just starting out in the internet space with no prior coding experience, and who is convinced that outsourcing is a better option, I'm sure the issues raised here are hovering over their heads. Could anybody please address these? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Neeraj
 

Kyle Tully

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Hasn't Steve raised legitimate concerns here? I'm just starting out and this thread has been absolutely amazing. From what I've gathered so far, for someone who is just starting out in the internet space with no prior coding experience, and who is convinced that outsourcing is a better option, I'm sure the issues raised here are hovering over their heads. Could anybody please address these? Thanks in advance.

They are merely challenges.

Some more legitimate than others.

All of which can be solved.

You can sit on a forum and come up with a hundred reasons anything won't work ;)
 

Neeraj

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Thank you, Kyle. Its a relief to know that they can be solved. But more specifically, how? Especially the stealing idea part?
 

Kyle Tully

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Thank you, Kyle. Its a relief to know that they can be solved. But more specifically, how? Especially the stealing idea part?

Solving those challenges is your process.

I won't spoon feed it to you... but the short answer is do the opposite.

"Tell the world about it by advertising for a developer." --> Don't tell the world about it but choose a small number of highly rated developers to bid on the job privately.

"spend months discussing your app with a developer who's native language isn't the same as yours" --> Hire someone who can speak your language and set firm deadlines for completion.

Etc.

This is all 101 stuff.

Listen to the INSIDERS call on Elance outsourcing. That process overcomes most of these challenges instantly. If you hire a company with solid feedback and put half a moments thought into your process you will overcome almost all of the challenges.

But the bottom line is you're putting too much value in the idea. Ideas are worthless without execution. Writing the code is only step one. Then you've got the market the thing.

And with how much the average app makes I bet it's more profitable for your developer to sell another coding job than it is to try and steal your idea;)
 
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Neeraj

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Solving those challenges is your process.
I won't spoon feed it to you.
But the bottom line is you're putting too much value in the idea. Ideas are worthless without execution.
And with how much the average app makes I bet it's more profitable for your developer to sell another coding job than it is to try and steal your idea;)

Thanks, Kyle. I'll keep that mind.
 

gstarr

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I'm a computer programmer, who also happens to know how to do business and how to sell, and I keep getting business opportunities from other people who don't have Computer Programming knowledge. Plus point is I get and equity in their business, and all I have to do is take care of the Programming.
So, you cannot state that acquiring new knowledge is STUPID, knowledge is something that will always help you go ahead in life!

I agree that new knowledge is not STUPID. Everyone should be constantly learning new things plus you should want to know how your system is working even if you don't know or understand all of the programming.

With the being said, there is a point where it isn't cost effective to know everything but again you should know the basics of how things work or else you give control to someone else concerning your business.

Remember the movie Office Space, those missing pennies add up fast.
 

Brentnal

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Oh thank god for this thread, saved me alot of time i was thinking about learning it but i am not a code guy. marketing/sales sounds 1000x times more intresting and fun and productive/
 
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Dimski

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16 pages of debate... gotta be some GOLD in there!
And that's the only reply I was waiting for.

We're on TMF , all possible because of MJ DeMarco - a man who didn't make his first millions through writing books.

I'm just gonna leave it at that. ;)
 

Blhhi

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I hope you guys are noticing a pattern where most of the people who say "Don't learn to program" are programmers.

I'll even say that "learning the basics to know what's possible" is ridiculous. If you want to know what's possible in biochemistry, do you take biology 101? Beginner classes touch on beginner subjects, not the outer limits of the entire field of study. So what makes you think you're going to take a code academy class and be able to tell the difference between a realistic idea and a pipe dream?

If you wanna know what's possible, find a bunch of reputable freelance coders and ask them if they'd be willing to do it. It would literally take like 5 emails. And you're gonna take a class?
 

debitandcredit

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I worked as a developer for 10 years, working on huge projects with consultants from Accenture or IBM. I had opportunities to work on quant trading ,MSE mobile tracking, medical record big data etc etc. I finally got up and tried to see things from the other side.

In my career, I met many freaking genius techies. sickening really in terms of complex problem solving. However nothing impressed me more than this guy who took his ebay store to 20 mil ecommerce company in 5 years. I was a head of tech. He knew nothing about tech and didn't wanna know, but he always knew what his business needed. He was crazy about automation and efficiency.

Many programmers (I) have problems delegating. I've had a saas company which offers complete backend to large ecommerce. I always end up programming myself, which I should not.
 
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Solrac

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Very interesting thread! Nice to see all these good arguments, makes you step back and really think about what is truly necessary, what are the boundaries you must cross you know?!
 

PedroG

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I've been a Software Engineer for about 12 years, and have created many side projects that never turned into anything. The truth is if you want to be rich, the best skill to have, in my opinion, is selling. If you know how to sell, you'll never have trouble making money. That's what I've observed.

At least I have learned from my mistakes in the past, one of which was trying to create a product first, and then figure out how to sell it later. I realize now how wrong that is. I would work on a project for 6 months, and within a week of finishing, I would realize I had made a mistake because I never figured out how hard that particular product would be to promote.
 

PedroG

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I'd also say that lots of folks who are programmatically minded don't have the gumption or desire to start a business. This is a broad generalization, but I think a fair one. If they are putting hundreds of hours into studying Javascript or anything else aside from business ownership, they probably aren't much of an entrepreneur, or have been misguided to believe that knowing a coding language is the practical way to make boat loads of money.

Very true. Most of the programmers I know have never even done side projects at home. They just go to work and code what they are told to code, which I find kind of weird. I don't regret becoming a Software Engineer because it gives me the ability to create anything I want from scratch without paying someone. But I realize that I need to improve on a different set of skills if I want to be an entrepreneur. But a lot of programmers don't care about that. They just wanna code, even if it's to make someone else rich.
 
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Temerity

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Funny thing is, I'd started to get into programming because it was interesting to me. I'd wanted to engage the creative and analytical parts of my brain. Programming can be fun and fulfilling that way - it's a full brain activity. But I was getting intuitive messages (and blatant ones in the form of aggravation at not being able to code effectively after months of practice) that I should be doing something else - like directing others to program for me.

Thank goodness for programmers who have the programming brain, unlike myself!
 

RogueInnovation

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I've been circling around this for a while (and probably will continue)
I find it fascinating.

There are a few "obvious" things I picked up
- People try to get a perfect product first (comfort) and when the chosen strategy doesn't work they blame what they did as not being effective and point elsewhere
- Coders generally say "its not worth the effort" IF you are on the outside, which is imo a result of it not being a magic pill and them not being superhuman like they expected, but not an indicator of its true worth to them
- People start to learn and give up and "go with something else"

As a result I think a definative answer isn't plausible because no one really has the unbiased authority to lay it out clearly for others.

ZenD said that you just need to outsource it and save time. I know coders that outsource jobs to get things done on deadline too. So imo, there can be no doubting the utility of having others take the workload.

I think however, there may be an "architect" skill in coding, and that is why I keep circling it. I'm not worried about syntax and effective programming, I'm more interested in knowing exactly what needs to be done. The problem is "what needs to be done" isn't a strict answer, its a pattern habit held by really good coders. So it seems the answer of how to create code, is "be a great coder" which is surreptitiously guarded by those coders either cuz they don't want to say or can't word it (likely both).

So how then can you spot the architect skill in coding? How can you KNOW what needs to be done? My coding friend, says he "sees" the end result appear before him and he then codes it, stretches further, improves his library, then picks and chooses the best pieces to mesh together a great solution for the project.
So if he is creating it like a composer, then the architecture can only be assumed to be shifting/a moving target.

Therefor, the "know the overall nature of coding" that people suggest actually requires VISION to even begin to grasp it. And if the experts have not been able to outline what is needed in code, how will an outsider even get close by assuming you can pull a jack and the bean stalk.

Isn't assuming you can steal the power of code and get out, exactly the same as assuming you can get into business get money and then get out without having learned a thing!!!


It is easier to argue about someone elses choices and "what they should do", than to talk about HOW to succeed through code.

I do wonder about what I should do.
My only answer so far, is you have to BE remarkeable, trail blaze, and answer questions others cannot if you want success.
 

RogueInnovation

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Elon musk - Coded
Mark Zuckerburg - Coded
Bill Gates - Coded
Mark Cuban - Coded

But in the same token
Walt Disney - No computers
Coke - No computers
Moon Landing - Calculator

And I doubt Zuckerburg codes much now, Elon is in cars and space, Cuban has a team.
No doubt it helps them but they CLEARLY move on. Amazing things can be done without code as the platform.

Do we chase a goldrush(the silicon valley bubble)? Or do we work towards a financial opportunity? Are we trying to evict insecurity, or are we trying to put ourselves in the best position possible?

Some make millions selling code lessons!!! Some make billions on apps, with relatively small and uncomplicated supporting infrastructures.

Can we operate online in a big way without code? Or are we chasing code for an instant buck because some 15 year old made a fortune?


WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO?!

Maybe coding can KICKSTART a success with more direction than outsourcing? But then it levels out once routine is established? Code is then relegated to tasks and maintenance.

If that is true (which I suspect it is) people are learning to code to CLAW their way to victory.
And code is used to get over the inertia of starting their businesses, but after the initial PUSH codes use completely flatlines.


Does that mean that code is useless?
I think it means that for those HOPING to succeed through it, it gives them a way to grind, a way to keep pushing, where for others, three failures might tell them to stop pursuing the idea.

Are successful ideas connected to CODE?
Is EXECUTION of code so absolutely critical?

Or is the general sales process relatively straight forwards, and code grinding all hype?



I think the answer, is that we have to lose illusions first.
 
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csalvato

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I started out as a programmer and later (after I couldn't get any traction with my development-based business) learned sales, marketing, and copywriting.

Believe me that is the SLOW way to go.

Probably cost me 3-5 years.

If I had to start over I would focus on marketing.

Programming is a $10-100 per hour job. Marketing is a $1000+ per hour job.

In the time it takes you to learn how to code even the most basic program, you could have gone out and got a minimum wage job to save up and pay a developer from eastern europe (with 10 years experience) who will make a better program faster and with less bugs than you ever could.
My experience mimics this exactly.
 

RogueInnovation

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Whoa... I think I'm starting to get something.
Is coding about holding the dissonance together of knowing how a computer executes a task and goal orienting with an incomplete view (taking for granted things humans can do but comps can't)?

Taking code out of abstract, handling the dissonance required to orient the code, then implementing ever more universal, creative and simple code?

You over time internalise a way to forget about how to create rushed/stupid code, and focus on relationships?

I think I just had my first coding epiphany XD
Code is about foresight, empathy for the limits of code, and getting an answer rather than spinning your wheels.
And studying functional code, slowly develops your comprehension, of how to problem solve the code.

MAAAAAAAAAAAAN thats not anything to fear. If I'm right I think you guys might just be complaining. I think I'll learn code but in the mean time hire people.
 
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